R22 operational safety - somebody enlighten me
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R22 operational safety - somebody enlighten me
I was visiting my parents yesterday, and to be frank hiding inside from the weather.
Roughly speaking, we were under the anvil of a CB, in light rain, with audible thunder in the distance but no visible lightning. The surface wind was around 15knots and steady, but at the cloudbase (my guess, around 300ft) it was clearly strong and very disturbed - visible from the texture of the cloud. Visibility was poor - maybe 2km or so.
As an experienced fixed wing pilot (but not a rotary pilot at-all) it all looked like conditions I wouldn't fly a kite in, let alone an aeroplane.
When along comes an R22 (no, I didn't see his registration), I think one I'd seen at (my guess) 500ft flying roughly towards the core of the CB around 10 minutes earlier before the rain had started. I'd have put him around 200ft, flying fast (80+ knots would be my guess), with the aircraft making noticeable yawing oscillations through something like ±5° (from motion of the tail). From his heading, he would appear to have been running away from the core of the CB (and who can blame him!).
My reaction, as an opinionated fixed wing pilot, was that he'd gone somewhere he shouldn't, was running away from it, but was nonetheless struggling. My uninformed opinion was that he was daft to be staying airborne, and should have just landed in one of the many available open fields and sat the weather out (almost certainly what I'd have done in a STOL aeroplane anyhow).
Presumably he got where he was going safely, since there was no helicopter crash on the news last night. But, please somebody enlighten me...
- Are these appropriate conditions for an aircraft like that?
- Would good practice be to run away in nasty conditions (as he/she seemed to be doing), or to land and sit it out?
- What are the sensible limits for something like an R22 (or for that matter, a bigger helicopter)?
G
Roughly speaking, we were under the anvil of a CB, in light rain, with audible thunder in the distance but no visible lightning. The surface wind was around 15knots and steady, but at the cloudbase (my guess, around 300ft) it was clearly strong and very disturbed - visible from the texture of the cloud. Visibility was poor - maybe 2km or so.
As an experienced fixed wing pilot (but not a rotary pilot at-all) it all looked like conditions I wouldn't fly a kite in, let alone an aeroplane.
When along comes an R22 (no, I didn't see his registration), I think one I'd seen at (my guess) 500ft flying roughly towards the core of the CB around 10 minutes earlier before the rain had started. I'd have put him around 200ft, flying fast (80+ knots would be my guess), with the aircraft making noticeable yawing oscillations through something like ±5° (from motion of the tail). From his heading, he would appear to have been running away from the core of the CB (and who can blame him!).
My reaction, as an opinionated fixed wing pilot, was that he'd gone somewhere he shouldn't, was running away from it, but was nonetheless struggling. My uninformed opinion was that he was daft to be staying airborne, and should have just landed in one of the many available open fields and sat the weather out (almost certainly what I'd have done in a STOL aeroplane anyhow).
Presumably he got where he was going safely, since there was no helicopter crash on the news last night. But, please somebody enlighten me...
- Are these appropriate conditions for an aircraft like that?
- Would good practice be to run away in nasty conditions (as he/she seemed to be doing), or to land and sit it out?
- What are the sensible limits for something like an R22 (or for that matter, a bigger helicopter)?
G
Avoid imitations
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Genghis, with a helicopter the norm is to fly until you are really scared then land. With more experience you tend to land before you get really scared.
After ten years or so on other helicopters I flew an R-22 in good VMC and I reached that threshold after fifteen minutes each way. I have never flown an R-22 since. It does appear that some pilots have a higher fear threshold, or less common sense than me.
The helicopter I fly now has a lightning detect facility. If it shows a series of strikes, I fly round that area and tend to avoid the area under the anvil, using the wx radar to help.
I do have a few hours flying very near T/S's in helicopters, including a few "interesting" ones with a man on the wire plucking very grateful folk from ships. In those particular instances, an ongoing risk assessment had to be made. It was obviously correct, as I'm still here and so are a few folk who might not otherwise have survived.
A small, unstabilised, VFR only equippped helicopter is no place to be in a thunderstorm but running away is sometimes a very good option, even if it means using a few extra heartbeats. The 500 foot rule still applies though!
After ten years or so on other helicopters I flew an R-22 in good VMC and I reached that threshold after fifteen minutes each way. I have never flown an R-22 since. It does appear that some pilots have a higher fear threshold, or less common sense than me.
The helicopter I fly now has a lightning detect facility. If it shows a series of strikes, I fly round that area and tend to avoid the area under the anvil, using the wx radar to help.
I do have a few hours flying very near T/S's in helicopters, including a few "interesting" ones with a man on the wire plucking very grateful folk from ships. In those particular instances, an ongoing risk assessment had to be made. It was obviously correct, as I'm still here and so are a few folk who might not otherwise have survived.
A small, unstabilised, VFR only equippped helicopter is no place to be in a thunderstorm but running away is sometimes a very good option, even if it means using a few extra heartbeats. The 500 foot rule still applies though!
The Original Whirly
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Are these appropriate conditions for an aircraft like that?
Would good practice be to run away in nasty conditions (as he/she seemed to be doing), or to land and sit it out?
- What are the sensible limits for something like an R22 (or for that matter, a bigger helicopter)?[/
Learning to pilot a helicopter and learning common sense are two different things.
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Genghis
I’m probably one of the, no sense no feeling dudes that Shy refers to.
You are right flying anywhere near lightning is just plain daft.
Flying R22sin light rain we also discounted a stupid when we noticed that the clutch light just kept on and on and on and well what about belt tension? Bugger that eh!
Heavy rain erodes hell out of the rotating parts and any helicopter equipped with grease nipples, well the good old clay based grease that we still HAVE to use turns into what looks like good cutting compound. Then you land and do a regrease and curse yourself for getting caught in rain.
Sitting it out when there is no option in widespread sudden downpours and lightning is very frightening. One’s mind dwells on the good old physics laws where electrical charges will stay on the outside of a metal container, but what would happen if - if this plexi / fibreglass structure with no doors took a hit. Well you could get out and sit under a tree or in the open???
Flying without stabilisation is not an issue, they don’t need the assistance, you can either fly one or you shouldn’t have a license.
Turbulence is usually not an issue. Say you’re in a throttled back C182 at 80 knots and you encounter a wind pocket travelling at say 40 knots – big bump.
In things rotary the blades will be at say 400 knots and encountering the same gust has much less effect.
I’ve always been most frightened in a small F/W, especially when I’m all alone with myself miles from anywhere.
I’ve yet to encounter a severe micro downdraft but always figured that the helicopter unlike the F/W would have enough room to stay afloat just above the ground where the air must flatten out.
We usually figure that if you're out in the bush and you know there are no wires around, then what your VFR rules says is best, 'as low and slow as you need to be.'
At least you can see what is going on by observing the trees.
As long as the CB storm cell is not accompanied by lots of widespread rain you can land or loiter somewhere aways quite easily. Usually they transit areas in about 25 minutes, well in the tropics anyway, that’s not long.
The tail will flick around just the same as in severe mechanical turbulence, that’s 2/3 days out of every 4/5 days here in our winter.
Always stay further away from the lead of a storm cell, say ten miles, than anywhere else around it - five miles.
TET
I’m probably one of the, no sense no feeling dudes that Shy refers to.
You are right flying anywhere near lightning is just plain daft.
Flying R22sin light rain we also discounted a stupid when we noticed that the clutch light just kept on and on and on and well what about belt tension? Bugger that eh!
Heavy rain erodes hell out of the rotating parts and any helicopter equipped with grease nipples, well the good old clay based grease that we still HAVE to use turns into what looks like good cutting compound. Then you land and do a regrease and curse yourself for getting caught in rain.
Sitting it out when there is no option in widespread sudden downpours and lightning is very frightening. One’s mind dwells on the good old physics laws where electrical charges will stay on the outside of a metal container, but what would happen if - if this plexi / fibreglass structure with no doors took a hit. Well you could get out and sit under a tree or in the open???
Flying without stabilisation is not an issue, they don’t need the assistance, you can either fly one or you shouldn’t have a license.
Turbulence is usually not an issue. Say you’re in a throttled back C182 at 80 knots and you encounter a wind pocket travelling at say 40 knots – big bump.
In things rotary the blades will be at say 400 knots and encountering the same gust has much less effect.
I’ve always been most frightened in a small F/W, especially when I’m all alone with myself miles from anywhere.
I’ve yet to encounter a severe micro downdraft but always figured that the helicopter unlike the F/W would have enough room to stay afloat just above the ground where the air must flatten out.
We usually figure that if you're out in the bush and you know there are no wires around, then what your VFR rules says is best, 'as low and slow as you need to be.'
At least you can see what is going on by observing the trees.
As long as the CB storm cell is not accompanied by lots of widespread rain you can land or loiter somewhere aways quite easily. Usually they transit areas in about 25 minutes, well in the tropics anyway, that’s not long.
The tail will flick around just the same as in severe mechanical turbulence, that’s 2/3 days out of every 4/5 days here in our winter.
Always stay further away from the lead of a storm cell, say ten miles, than anywhere else around it - five miles.
TET
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Shy Torque
lightning detector? stablizer? hahahaYou don't like driving a Ferrari, you like driving an S Class Mercedes.
Don't tell me you've never done "scudd running"? hehehe...When I'm the driver, give me a Ferrari. When I'm the passenger, give me the Benz.
It's all good...
Oh BTW I did a "for real" full touch down auto once AND LIVED. hahaha. Carb icing in R22. Surprised the heck out of me. My passenger thought it was a normal thing to do, although the initial drop did startled him a bit but he's too cool to admit that. I didn't want to fly it back, but we were poor and thought that we'd have to pay for the pickup. Waited awhile, checked everything and restarted. The rest of the flight actually went well. Told the FOB, Advanced Aviation in Frederick, MD that I may have oversped the rotor (Hey I'm cheap, but I wont put someone else's life in danger). He said he'd have it checked, but he told me not to say anything about it to anyone. Huh? I don't think he had it checked. I checked the temp strip on the gear boxes, they were still within limits though. maybe that's all he did too.
Da Monk
Last edited by TheMonk; 23rd Jul 2006 at 16:45.
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The Robinson R-22 has one airworthiness directive that prohibits flight in moderate turbulence. Read the AD for details.
You have to wonder why the AD was issued. My opinion is related to the rotor head design. The lack of lead/lag hinges allows large loads in conditions of sharp gusts.
You have to wonder why the AD was issued. My opinion is related to the rotor head design. The lack of lead/lag hinges allows large loads in conditions of sharp gusts.
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R22
I have a Robinson Safety Notice to hand - there are 39 of them in the back of the R44 POH.
SN32 commences -
'Flying in high winds or turbulence should be avoided but if unexpected[!] high winds or turbulence are encountered..........'
It then provides the pilot with 6 tips on what to do next.
The key word here is 'unexpected'.
'Severe turbulence' I recall from one of Training Manuals is described as 'a feeling of momentary weighlessness in the seat.'
Robinson - great machine. Fly on nice days, dont overload it, stay current.
Hairy
SN32 commences -
'Flying in high winds or turbulence should be avoided but if unexpected[!] high winds or turbulence are encountered..........'
It then provides the pilot with 6 tips on what to do next.
The key word here is 'unexpected'.
'Severe turbulence' I recall from one of Training Manuals is described as 'a feeling of momentary weighlessness in the seat.'
Robinson - great machine. Fly on nice days, dont overload it, stay current.
Hairy
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Originally Posted by TheMonk
lightning detector? stablizer? hahahaYou don't like driving a Ferrari, you like driving an S Class Mercedes.
Don't tell me you've never done "scudd running"? hehehe...When I'm the driver, give me a Ferrari. When I'm the passenger, give me the Benz.
It's all good...
Oh BTW I did a "for real" full touch down auto once AND LIVED. hahaha. Carb icing in R22. Surprised the heck out of me. My passenger thought it was a normal thing to do, although the initial drop did startled him a bit but he's too cool to admit that. I didn't want to fly it back, but we were poor and thought that we'd have to pay for the pickup. Waited awhile, checked everything and restarted. The rest of the flight actually went well. Told the FOB, Advanced Aviation in Frederick, MD that I may have oversped the rotor (Hey I'm cheap, but I wont put someone else's life in danger). He said he'd have it checked, but he told me not to say anything about it to anyone. Huh? I don't think he had it checked. I checked the temp strip on the gear boxes, they were still within limits though. maybe that's all he did too.
Da Monk
Is it 6 or 7 that have stoofed this month so far?
Six R22s and Two R44s. The Robinson Accident Database will be off the scale come the end of January nevermind the end of 2012. Ridiculous!
Glad the occupants got out of this one.
TOT,
All the unfortunate incidents of Jan 2012!
R22 Incidents.
ASN Aircraft accident 16-JAN-2012 Robinson R22 Beta II G-FIRS
ASN Aircraft accident 15-JAN-2012 Robinson R22
ASN Aircraft accident 10-JAN-2012 Robinson R22 Beta II D-HHTA
ASN Aircraft accident 06-JAN-2012 Robinson R22 Beta G-CHZN
ASN Aircraft accident 06-JAN-2012 Robinson R22 Beta N8066U
ASN Aircraft accident 03-JAN-2012 Robinson R22 Beta II VH-FHR
R44 Incidents
ASN Aircraft accident 11-JAN-2012 Robinson R44 Raven II SE-JPZ
ASN Aircraft accident 03-JAN-2012 Robinson R44 Raven II C-FGBX
Other Incidents.
ASN Aircraft accident 17-JAN-2012 Arospatiale AS 350B3 Ecureuil C-FMPG
ASN Aircraft accident 16-JAN-2012 Bell 214ST N5748M
ASN Aircraft accident 14-JAN-2012 Helicopter
ASN Aircraft accident 12-JAN-2012 Bell UH-1H Huey II PNP-352
ASN Aircraft accident 10-JAN-2012 Westland (Arospatiale) SA 341G Gazelle G-WDEV
ASN Aircraft accident 08-JAN-2012 Bell 412HP FAC0005
can you remind me of the others,- 6 or 7 ? thanks
R22 Incidents.
ASN Aircraft accident 16-JAN-2012 Robinson R22 Beta II G-FIRS
ASN Aircraft accident 15-JAN-2012 Robinson R22
ASN Aircraft accident 10-JAN-2012 Robinson R22 Beta II D-HHTA
ASN Aircraft accident 06-JAN-2012 Robinson R22 Beta G-CHZN
ASN Aircraft accident 06-JAN-2012 Robinson R22 Beta N8066U
ASN Aircraft accident 03-JAN-2012 Robinson R22 Beta II VH-FHR
R44 Incidents
ASN Aircraft accident 11-JAN-2012 Robinson R44 Raven II SE-JPZ
ASN Aircraft accident 03-JAN-2012 Robinson R44 Raven II C-FGBX
Other Incidents.
ASN Aircraft accident 17-JAN-2012 Arospatiale AS 350B3 Ecureuil C-FMPG
ASN Aircraft accident 16-JAN-2012 Bell 214ST N5748M
ASN Aircraft accident 14-JAN-2012 Helicopter
ASN Aircraft accident 12-JAN-2012 Bell UH-1H Huey II PNP-352
ASN Aircraft accident 10-JAN-2012 Westland (Arospatiale) SA 341G Gazelle G-WDEV
ASN Aircraft accident 08-JAN-2012 Bell 412HP FAC0005
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Let's just all revel in the fact and be grateful that another Robbo has been reduced to scrap.
Torrance, CA— Robinson Helicopter Company continues to be the world’s leading producer of civil helicopters. In 2011, the company produced 356 helicopters (212 R44s, 88 R66s and 56 R22s), more than double 2010’s production of 162.
While the R44 remains Robinson’s top selling helicopter, the response to its latest model, the R66 Turbine, has been very strong. The R66 was FAA certificated in October 2010. As of December 31, 2011, total orders received for the new model exceeded 360.
While the R44 remains Robinson’s top selling helicopter, the response to its latest model, the R66 Turbine, has been very strong. The R66 was FAA certificated in October 2010. As of December 31, 2011, total orders received for the new model exceeded 360.
Rotary Spanner: thanks for that, I was beginning to think the pond was empty.
Stringfellow: Don't get me wrong, the Robbo is 100% airworthy and a product cleverly designed to fill a niche in the market...BUT....it doesn't take prisoners.
It is extremely unforgiving when it decides not to play and would be a handful for any experienced aviator in those circumstances. Novices and people who can only just afford to fly helos (the vast majority of robbo owners) are the main customers and are the least prepared to cater for malfunctions associated with this type of helicopter. It's the three wheeler of the car world driven by people who think it's a hot hatch. (In the main).
They simply aren't equipped, trained or prepared for eventualities that other helicopters find acceptable. Do you hear the same bad news eminating from the Enstrom/300 and similar, world.
Frank R has done his bit by offering the factory training module, post sale. This highlights some of the more "sensitive" nuances of flying the robbo, but I wager the vast majority of users can't be bothered to attend.
Stringfellow: Don't get me wrong, the Robbo is 100% airworthy and a product cleverly designed to fill a niche in the market...BUT....it doesn't take prisoners.
It is extremely unforgiving when it decides not to play and would be a handful for any experienced aviator in those circumstances. Novices and people who can only just afford to fly helos (the vast majority of robbo owners) are the main customers and are the least prepared to cater for malfunctions associated with this type of helicopter. It's the three wheeler of the car world driven by people who think it's a hot hatch. (In the main).
They simply aren't equipped, trained or prepared for eventualities that other helicopters find acceptable. Do you hear the same bad news eminating from the Enstrom/300 and similar, world.
Frank R has done his bit by offering the factory training module, post sale. This highlights some of the more "sensitive" nuances of flying the robbo, but I wager the vast majority of users can't be bothered to attend.
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It seems few have a solid grasp of statistics. Robinson has now produced over 10,000 helicopters and the vast majority of private helicopter pilots fly Robinsons, in part due to availability. I’ve flown and have never liked Sikorsky/Schweitzer 300’s. As for Enstrom’s, I once saw one at an aviation expo, but have never actually seen one at an airfield – in near a decade of privately flying helicopters! I know Enstroms exist, I’ve seen photos and Mr Kenyon often speaks of them on here, but there doesn’t seem to be enough about to render any meaningful statistics.
I’ll bet if we check DVLA statistics, more Ford Focus are wrecked than Rolls Royce Phantoms. Does that infer a Ford Focus is a “death box” and we expect everyone to be driving Phantoms?
I’ll bet if we check DVLA statistics, more Ford Focus are wrecked than Rolls Royce Phantoms. Does that infer a Ford Focus is a “death box” and we expect everyone to be driving Phantoms?
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TC - you're right of course, the HOGE power check is best done outside the avoid curve. No idea what this looks like on a R22 but if that means a height of 600ft, would just say though that at a 200ft hover it is easier to maintain visual references and stability. Newbies shouldn't underestimate how different a hover OGE at 500ft plus feels compared to one IGE - it can feel rather strange!
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Reply to R22 HV info
Would not be happy hovering an R22 @ 200 AGL.
Last edited by cyclic35; 28th Jan 2013 at 20:48.
Except that if those 10000 owners had the money they would buy a jetranger or a squirrel or pretty much anything but an underpowered piston with dubious handling qualities - flown one, been in a crash in one, sticking to real helicopters
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A real helicopter - like one of these?
Latest Accident Reports
19-Jan-12 LV-ZXO Bell 412EP Petit Martinique, Grenada
19-Jan-12 N369TL Robinson R44 St Mary Parish, US-Louisiana (2K)
19-Jan-12 Forrestdale Lakes, Australia
18-Jan-12 Eurocopter EC225 Aberdeen, UK
17-Jan-12 C-FMPG Eurocopter AS350B3 Cultus Lake, Canada (1F)
16-Jan-12 N5748M Bell 214ST Nadi-Ali, Afghanistan (3F)
16-Jan-12 N59479 Bell 206B Comfort, US-West Virginia
16-Jan-12 N63HZ Fairchild-Hiller FH1100 Soest, Germany
16-Jan-12 N605PD Bell 407 Rockville Centre, US-New York
16-Jan-12 G-FIRS Robinson R22 Llanwddyn, UK
just saying.... not just robbies that lead to accidents. I think we understand the risks when we get in any helicopter
Latest Accident Reports
19-Jan-12 LV-ZXO Bell 412EP Petit Martinique, Grenada
19-Jan-12 N369TL Robinson R44 St Mary Parish, US-Louisiana (2K)
19-Jan-12 Forrestdale Lakes, Australia
18-Jan-12 Eurocopter EC225 Aberdeen, UK
17-Jan-12 C-FMPG Eurocopter AS350B3 Cultus Lake, Canada (1F)
16-Jan-12 N5748M Bell 214ST Nadi-Ali, Afghanistan (3F)
16-Jan-12 N59479 Bell 206B Comfort, US-West Virginia
16-Jan-12 N63HZ Fairchild-Hiller FH1100 Soest, Germany
16-Jan-12 N605PD Bell 407 Rockville Centre, US-New York
16-Jan-12 G-FIRS Robinson R22 Llanwddyn, UK
just saying.... not just robbies that lead to accidents. I think we understand the risks when we get in any helicopter
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18-Jan-12 Eurocopter EC225 Aberdeen, UK
The EC225 helicopter was just outside Aberdeen when a transmission temperature indicator came on yesterday.
A spokesman for Aberdeen-based Bond said: “There was a fault in a wire. However, everything was fine after checks were made.”
A spokesman for Aberdeen-based Bond said: “There was a fault in a wire. However, everything was fine after checks were made.”
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19-Jan-12 LV-ZXO Bell 412EP Petit Martinique, Grenada
19-Jan-12 N369TL Robinson R44 St Mary Parish, US-Louisiana (2K)
19-Jan-12 Forrestdale Lakes, Australia
18-Jan-12 Eurocopter EC225 Aberdeen, UK
17-Jan-12 C-FMPG Eurocopter AS350B3 Cultus Lake, Canada (1F)
16-Jan-12 N5748M Bell 214ST Nadi-Ali, Afghanistan (3F)
16-Jan-12 N59479 Bell 206B Comfort, US-West Virginia
16-Jan-12 N63HZ Fairchild-Hiller FH1100 Soest, Germany
16-Jan-12 N605PD Bell 407 Rockville Centre, US-New York
16-Jan-12 G-FIRS Robinson R22 Llanwddyn, UK
So - most of these "accidents" were only emergency landings. The Canadian RCMP Squirrel was flying in Canadian winter conditions on an emergency exercise, and the Bell 214 in Afghanistan, a war zone. Somewhat different than going out for an agreeable lunch at a hotel.