Accident nr Lake Vyrnwy Hotel, Wales
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An accident has happened at a location where others on here may be landing in the future. Without the guesswork pertaining to this specific crash, could someone please give some pointers/warnings/info on what to be aware of when landing at this or similar site.
When we could actually get some useful information, this always turns into the usual PPrune thread of “Why a Sikorsky S76 is better than a R44/R22”.
Gents it gets old. Trust me every PPL on here wishes they had an Agusta 109 for their use. Pretty much 95% of my landings are at differing hotel landing pads. I (and I’m certain others) would like to learn something from the incident by the more experienced on here.
When we could actually get some useful information, this always turns into the usual PPrune thread of “Why a Sikorsky S76 is better than a R44/R22”.
Gents it gets old. Trust me every PPL on here wishes they had an Agusta 109 for their use. Pretty much 95% of my landings are at differing hotel landing pads. I (and I’m certain others) would like to learn something from the incident by the more experienced on here.
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"dumped in a field " not knocking you but that seems unlikely I have been into this site on dozens of occasional's and don't remember there being any suitable nearby fields ?.
The hotel helipad has a number of challenges such as the big mountain behind and the lake in front of it, I have always used the old pump house on the edge of the lake as a reference point making an approach from there which gives you enough space and time to get it right.It can be a very difficult approach if it is windy.
cbs
The hotel helipad has a number of challenges such as the big mountain behind and the lake in front of it, I have always used the old pump house on the edge of the lake as a reference point making an approach from there which gives you enough space and time to get it right.It can be a very difficult approach if it is windy.
cbs
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@RMK: great question.
I always suggest getting some confined area training from an instructor who has real-world experience of private sites before trying anything new.
As well as revising the "Confined Area Landings" exercise from the syllabus, it's an opportunity to go into more detail about the kind of judgements and assessments you need to make once you've located the site but before attempting a landing. eg: Whether to attempt a landing at all, where to divert to if you don't fancy what you see, where your go-around point should be on the approach and so on.
The R22 has plenty of power and control while it has translational lift. You're at your most vulnerable once the translational lift has gone. So you need to assess the site to see if it will allow you to be in ground effect by the time that happens. The smaller the site the more dangerous it is in an R22, because you may feel compelled to come in very slowly, which can lead to a loss of translational lift while you're still out of ground effect. That is the moment where you can start to run out of options. The site at Vyrnwy is a classic for this; the ground slopes up to it on the approach (so denying you ground effect) the site itself is tiny, and there's a slope up beyond it, so you can feel compelled to approach very slowly.
Also, plan ahead to give yourself the best possible power margin on arrival overhead the site. One of the main determining factors of power margin in an R22 is how much fuel you have on board. You want the lightest fuel load that is consistent with still having enough endurance safely to get to your next (preferably close by) fuel stop. So your fuel calculation at your previous refuel needs to take all this into account. This judgement also applies to the weight of your baggage.
And when planning a landing at a private site, always give yourself a get-out clause: "I'll give it a go, but I can't promise anything as it may look very different from up there". Allow yourself the option to land in a larger more accessible field at the bottom of the valley and walk, or to drop off your passenger in the field next to the private site to unload the helicopter before manoeuvring over the hedge to the pad itself, or even just turn round and go home with your helicopter, your loved one, and your pride intact.
I always suggest getting some confined area training from an instructor who has real-world experience of private sites before trying anything new.
As well as revising the "Confined Area Landings" exercise from the syllabus, it's an opportunity to go into more detail about the kind of judgements and assessments you need to make once you've located the site but before attempting a landing. eg: Whether to attempt a landing at all, where to divert to if you don't fancy what you see, where your go-around point should be on the approach and so on.
The R22 has plenty of power and control while it has translational lift. You're at your most vulnerable once the translational lift has gone. So you need to assess the site to see if it will allow you to be in ground effect by the time that happens. The smaller the site the more dangerous it is in an R22, because you may feel compelled to come in very slowly, which can lead to a loss of translational lift while you're still out of ground effect. That is the moment where you can start to run out of options. The site at Vyrnwy is a classic for this; the ground slopes up to it on the approach (so denying you ground effect) the site itself is tiny, and there's a slope up beyond it, so you can feel compelled to approach very slowly.
Also, plan ahead to give yourself the best possible power margin on arrival overhead the site. One of the main determining factors of power margin in an R22 is how much fuel you have on board. You want the lightest fuel load that is consistent with still having enough endurance safely to get to your next (preferably close by) fuel stop. So your fuel calculation at your previous refuel needs to take all this into account. This judgement also applies to the weight of your baggage.
And when planning a landing at a private site, always give yourself a get-out clause: "I'll give it a go, but I can't promise anything as it may look very different from up there". Allow yourself the option to land in a larger more accessible field at the bottom of the valley and walk, or to drop off your passenger in the field next to the private site to unload the helicopter before manoeuvring over the hedge to the pad itself, or even just turn round and go home with your helicopter, your loved one, and your pride intact.
Last edited by uniformkilo; 18th Jan 2012 at 12:31.
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The slope is possibly no more than 15degs with a min of 12Degs
Taking the well fitted fencing posts above the burnt wreck will be as near as damit to 90Degs, the best is 12Degs with the worst looking about 15Degs, The main Rotor Shaft is sloping backward sand gives a eyeline that looks greater, but using the skids as the angle pointer comes up with that sort of Degree.
PeterR-B
Lancashire
carry on with lunch now!
Taking the well fitted fencing posts above the burnt wreck will be as near as damit to 90Degs, the best is 12Degs with the worst looking about 15Degs, The main Rotor Shaft is sloping backward sand gives a eyeline that looks greater, but using the skids as the angle pointer comes up with that sort of Degree.
PeterR-B
Lancashire
carry on with lunch now!
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Lake Vyrnwy Hotel
Pleased indeed that nobody was seriously hurt.
This is a cracking destination. I have taken the R44 in on a number of occasions, the last only a couple of months back for the best ever Ham, egg and Chips in their inexpensive Bistro/zero landing fee - all with the stunning backdrop of the Lake.
Its a challenging site - the pad is not very big and is on the side of a steep hill above the hotel.
Approach is from over the Lake towards the hill and invariably requires an OOGE hover before the pad. Throw in a tailwind or downdraught depending on the wind direction and it can be hard work.
Its important to choose the right day and ensure you have adequate performance.
HP
This is a cracking destination. I have taken the R44 in on a number of occasions, the last only a couple of months back for the best ever Ham, egg and Chips in their inexpensive Bistro/zero landing fee - all with the stunning backdrop of the Lake.
Its a challenging site - the pad is not very big and is on the side of a steep hill above the hotel.
Approach is from over the Lake towards the hill and invariably requires an OOGE hover before the pad. Throw in a tailwind or downdraught depending on the wind direction and it can be hard work.
Its important to choose the right day and ensure you have adequate performance.
HP
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Originally Posted by RMK
I (and I’m certain others) would like to learn something from the incident by the more experienced on here.
Originally Posted by uniformkilo
You're at your most vulnerable once the translational lift has gone.
Very relieved to read there were no serious injuries.
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One of the most difficult Places Ive ever landed.
Landed here a few years ago while taking my wife away for Valantines in our helicopter.Did several traffic patterns before commiting and still nearly dropped it from about 15 ft.The prevailing wind funnels up the Lake towards you then suddenly drops without warning.You approach over 30 foot conifers then are forced to perform a really steep approach very scary.
Ive flown all over the world in many confined areas and this was one of the most scary approaches Ive ever had to perform.
I even had the hotel remove a digger from my escape route on departure,to try and make it as safe as possible.I have also written about this site on as many forums as possible,no matter what you fly and how much grunt you have in hand be careful at this one.
Ive flown all over the world in many confined areas and this was one of the most scary approaches Ive ever had to perform.
I even had the hotel remove a digger from my escape route on departure,to try and make it as safe as possible.I have also written about this site on as many forums as possible,no matter what you fly and how much grunt you have in hand be careful at this one.
requires an OOGE hover before the pad
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I personally don't know the landing site, however judging by the comments above it is clear that some people shouldn't be flying in there. Just because somewhere advertises a "helipad" doesn't imply it is suitable for use as an area for landing certain types.
Last edited by powerlimited; 18th Jan 2012 at 21:41.
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Again someone shows that there is always someone looking for an opportunity to take a pedantic approach to the language of another and pen something in the most unhelpful manner.
There are valid points raised in the last post but I am put-off looking for them by the tone of the response.
Am I alone in wishing that we could try to be supportive and encouraging to each other in how we post?
Uniformkilo - top man! a great example of passing on helpful advice. Thank you!
There are valid points raised in the last post but I am put-off looking for them by the tone of the response.
Am I alone in wishing that we could try to be supportive and encouraging to each other in how we post?
Uniformkilo - top man! a great example of passing on helpful advice. Thank you!
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Your unhelpful Response.
This response is the reason I dont post on this site and wont bother again,I was trying to be helpful to anyone landing there in the future.
To answer your question the wind was forcing my decison to land from that direction ,but being someone of your eminence I pressumed you might know that.That is one of the limited options for this site but you already knew that ,oh no silly me you have never even been their.
To answer your question the wind was forcing my decison to land from that direction ,but being someone of your eminence I pressumed you might know that.That is one of the limited options for this site but you already knew that ,oh no silly me you have never even been their.
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I would make the comment of confined areas that if you have not experienced a location with an instructor, then to ask for the advice of one would help, or maybe practise some locations with an instructor if you are out of practise.
I am not being critical of anyone here, and it is bloody easy to be the Monday morning defender, but everyone makes mistakes even high time pilots, just a thought, how many non incident landings have been made at this location in the last year or so?
I am not being critical of anyone here, and it is bloody easy to be the Monday morning defender, but everyone makes mistakes even high time pilots, just a thought, how many non incident landings have been made at this location in the last year or so?
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
brantlyb2b, to me your post says it all.
Isn't this a classic... waiting to happen?
Loss of face with the missus if you decided it was too bad, and had to forgo the valentines day out! Pressonitis
'Forced to perform'... surely we shouldn't be forced into any situation! Situation awareness
If it was one of the most scarey approaches you have had to perform, I have to ask, why did you continue? Overconfidence
Several 'traffic patterns' seems to me that you had doubts about the site, yet ignored your recce!
Isn't the saying, if there is any doubt, there is no doubt !
Landed here a few years ago while taking my wife away for Valantines in our helicopter. Did several traffic patterns before commiting and still nearly dropped it from about 15 ft.The prevailing wind funnels up the Lake towards you then suddenly drops without warning.You approach over 30 foot conifers then are forced to perform a really steep approach very scary.
Ive flown all over the world in many confined areas and this was one of the most scary approaches Ive ever had to perform.
Ive flown all over the world in many confined areas and this was one of the most scary approaches Ive ever had to perform.
Loss of face with the missus if you decided it was too bad, and had to forgo the valentines day out! Pressonitis
'Forced to perform'... surely we shouldn't be forced into any situation! Situation awareness
If it was one of the most scarey approaches you have had to perform, I have to ask, why did you continue? Overconfidence
Several 'traffic patterns' seems to me that you had doubts about the site, yet ignored your recce!
Isn't the saying, if there is any doubt, there is no doubt !
Brantley: don't be such a pussy! You're a helicopter pilot man! Chest out stomach in and all that. Stick with ascerbic remarks now and again, they're from vets who have been cruelly beaten as children and psychologically damaged by years of multi engine whining in their ears
They mean well = they are just shy!
Davy - my calculations by projecting to the end of 2012 means that if we can lose 8 Robbo's in 2 weeks, then 2012 will see the demise of: 208 robbo's
Let's hope that no animals or children are hurt during the period.
They mean well = they are just shy!Davy - my calculations by projecting to the end of 2012 means that if we can lose 8 Robbo's in 2 weeks, then 2012 will see the demise of: 208 robbo's
Let's hope that no animals or children are hurt during the period.
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It is always worth having a look at one of the web mapping/satellite sites. They can give you lots of useful information. Not to be relied upon, but it at least gives you a chance to think options whilst having all your brain available.
Always PLAN an alternate. You may well not use it, but having thought about it, it is in your mind as an option. Makes it easier to avoid being "forced" to go in.
Always PLAN an alternate. You may well not use it, but having thought about it, it is in your mind as an option. Makes it easier to avoid being "forced" to go in.
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Thanks for your feedback on the landing site and to others such as Uniform Kilo. Don’t be put off by the other posters; you get those types on all forums. I see it on skydiving, yachting and white-water kayaking forums. The phrases “I’ve never done it”, “never been there” or “don’t have any experience on the matter” are the usual keys to skip over their post. In this new Web 2.0 world anyone can see their thoughts in print – if you wade through the trash there’s some good information on here.
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brantlyb2b & John R81
I'm honestly sorry if my post has offended you, I was only basing my response on what was written.
If I were to describe something as "scary", then thats what I mean - something which challenged me such that I wouldn't be comfortable.
But, I still stand by my comments required coming to an HOGE downwind, surely no one can justify this as sensible for a spot of lunch? And then you have to get back out of the site, which would pose the same issues only in reverse.
I'm certainly not going to get into a p*ssing contest over this.
I'm honestly sorry if my post has offended you, I was only basing my response on what was written.
If I were to describe something as "scary", then thats what I mean - something which challenged me such that I wouldn't be comfortable.
But, I still stand by my comments required coming to an HOGE downwind, surely no one can justify this as sensible for a spot of lunch? And then you have to get back out of the site, which would pose the same issues only in reverse.
I'm certainly not going to get into a p*ssing contest over this.