Bell 212 Crash - Helisul (INAER Portugal)
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From Google Translate
MINISTRY OF ECONOMY AND JOBS
GPIAA - Office of Prevention and Investigation of Aircraft Accident
INFORMATION NOTICE OF AIRCRAFT ACCIDENT
Case No. 16/ACCID/2011
Date / Time (Local): 10.18.2011, 18:10 Location: the Q.ta Botelho, Golf, Trancoso
Aircraft Type: Bell 212 Registration: CS-HFJ Serial No.: 30684
Operator Helisul Ltd
Origin / Destination Celorico Beira / CMA Meda
People on board 1 / 8
Other Crew Passengers Injuries
Fatal 0 0 0
Graves 0 0 0
Light / 8 No 1
Aircraft Damage: Substantial
BRIEF DESCRIPTION
The aircraft was involved in actions to combat a forest fire. When abandoned
the theater of operations into the base, carrying a pilot and combat team
fire, the pilot noticed a fluctuation in engine indications, accompanied by a
reduction in main rotor rpm. Reacted by reducing the collective and cutting the turbines,
pursuing an autorotation maneuver to a nearby field, clear of
obstacles. By touching the ground the helicopter had slightly sideways, so it fell
on your left side, striking the ground with the rotor and exacerbating the damage
the aircraft.
All occupants were by themselves, not having suffered injuries.
Because it is an accident, according to the classification of the ICAO Annex 13, paragraph 1, of article
Article 2 of Regulation (EU) No. 996/2010 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 20
October 2010 and article 2 of Decree Law No. 318/99 of 11 August, GPIAA under
paragraph 1 of article 11 of said Decree-law, opened an investigation.
�� This information note is issued for the prevention of accidents;
�� The information in this document are provisional and contains only a
summary of events and are subject to change during the research process;
�� The safety investigation is not intended to apportion blame or determining
responsibilities but, only to learn lessons that could
prevent future accidents
GPIAA - Office of Prevention and Investigation of Aircraft Accident
INFORMATION NOTICE OF AIRCRAFT ACCIDENT
Case No. 16/ACCID/2011
Date / Time (Local): 10.18.2011, 18:10 Location: the Q.ta Botelho, Golf, Trancoso
Aircraft Type: Bell 212 Registration: CS-HFJ Serial No.: 30684
Operator Helisul Ltd
Origin / Destination Celorico Beira / CMA Meda
People on board 1 / 8
Other Crew Passengers Injuries
Fatal 0 0 0
Graves 0 0 0
Light / 8 No 1
Aircraft Damage: Substantial
BRIEF DESCRIPTION
The aircraft was involved in actions to combat a forest fire. When abandoned
the theater of operations into the base, carrying a pilot and combat team
fire, the pilot noticed a fluctuation in engine indications, accompanied by a
reduction in main rotor rpm. Reacted by reducing the collective and cutting the turbines,
pursuing an autorotation maneuver to a nearby field, clear of
obstacles. By touching the ground the helicopter had slightly sideways, so it fell
on your left side, striking the ground with the rotor and exacerbating the damage
the aircraft.
All occupants were by themselves, not having suffered injuries.
Because it is an accident, according to the classification of the ICAO Annex 13, paragraph 1, of article
Article 2 of Regulation (EU) No. 996/2010 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 20
October 2010 and article 2 of Decree Law No. 318/99 of 11 August, GPIAA under
paragraph 1 of article 11 of said Decree-law, opened an investigation.
�� This information note is issued for the prevention of accidents;
�� The information in this document are provisional and contains only a
summary of events and are subject to change during the research process;
�� The safety investigation is not intended to apportion blame or determining
responsibilities but, only to learn lessons that could
prevent future accidents
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"If you pay peanuts, you get monkeys"....
The spanish decided that they have enough "experienced" pilots-and like Portugal, they hired some "fresh" military "Captains"....
Some of them has just been trained on the helicopters they were supposed to fly in the fire season-but all of the pilots were confident, that (with their HUGE experience from military aviation) they would be more than qualified to do the job...
I saw a few of these "soon to be Captains" get their type rating......with some of them, i didn´t want to fly in the same area.....
Sorry to say that-but i had to learn that, too:
Military flying experience has NOTHING to do with civil (commercial) aviation...
We´ll have to wait until the cause of the accident has been discovered-maybe it was not a pilot´s error...(but i doubt that).
The spanish decided that they have enough "experienced" pilots-and like Portugal, they hired some "fresh" military "Captains"....
Some of them has just been trained on the helicopters they were supposed to fly in the fire season-but all of the pilots were confident, that (with their HUGE experience from military aviation) they would be more than qualified to do the job...
I saw a few of these "soon to be Captains" get their type rating......with some of them, i didn´t want to fly in the same area.....
Sorry to say that-but i had to learn that, too:
Military flying experience has NOTHING to do with civil (commercial) aviation...
We´ll have to wait until the cause of the accident has been discovered-maybe it was not a pilot´s error...(but i doubt that).
Without stirring up a hornets nest AGAIN regarding Mil Vs Civ.
You are talking bollo**s.
What you actually mean is:
"...Military flying experience IN SPAIN has NOTHING to do with civil (commercial) aviation..."
Don't tar everyone else with your own problems.
You are talking bollo**s.
What you actually mean is:
"...Military flying experience IN SPAIN has NOTHING to do with civil (commercial) aviation..."
Don't tar everyone else with your own problems.
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¿?
There are here a lot of Accident Investigator candidates.
An accident in Portugal, of a Portuguese helicopter, and supposedly a Portuguese pilot who actually saved all the people on board after a serious mechanical problem and the guilty are.....
...¡¡¡ THE SPANISH MILITARY PILOTS ¡¡¡
Good reasoning...
An accident in Portugal, of a Portuguese helicopter, and supposedly a Portuguese pilot who actually saved all the people on board after a serious mechanical problem and the guilty are.....
...¡¡¡ THE SPANISH MILITARY PILOTS ¡¡¡
Good reasoning...
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You are talking bollo**s.
Take any pilot straight out of a highly regulated miltary system with only two pilot helicopter experience and put that pilot into a new civil single pilot type with bare minimum training then send that pilot out to flight fires and you are asking for trouble. It is highly specialised work and is fraught with traps for the unwary.
This is exacerbated by the Spanish system which anyone who has worked there knows only too well. Hueyracer knows what he is talking about.
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...and Inaer again.
It doesn't matter what is pilot's background if they are trained in the job what they do. There must be some problem with that company. Look at their accident / incident records. Is there any quality controls, which is required by the JAR?
Wake up
Wake up
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Gordy et al
Let's keep a sense of proportion here! My hundreds of hours flying IFR (night and day) at 200 feet chasing submarines did help my instrument flying competence when I went for my commercial IR. My hundreds of hours sling loading supplies at sea helped me when I was sling loading camera equipment around the mountains during the Winter Olympics, my experience flying live SAR helped me get a job as a civvy SAR Captain, my 4 years as a military flight instructor serves me well to this day.
I am just one of many. I suggest you check your facts before making sweeping statements that only serve to diminish your credibility. There are dullards in every walk of life but I don't appreciate being put in that category by a colleague who does not know me.
G.
I am just one of many. I suggest you check your facts before making sweeping statements that only serve to diminish your credibility. There are dullards in every walk of life but I don't appreciate being put in that category by a colleague who does not know me.
G.
Geoffersincornwall
While I agree that your military flying helped you with pure "flying skills", they would in no way transfer to the civilian operations....and I speak for the left side of the pond.
maybe I even spoke to you in a former life..... and yes I still stand by my previous statement.
While I agree that your military flying helped you with pure "flying skills", they would in no way transfer to the civilian operations....and I speak for the left side of the pond.
200 feet chasing submarines
I suggest that everyone should take a deep breath,and relax,then read the report,before crucifixion of the pilot.
Don`t see it says anywhere that the pilot was Spanish ,or ex-mil FFS ! he was transiting from somewhere to base with 8 pax; there was a major problem,and he did a forced landing...unfortunately,the a/c skidded and turned over;;;however there were no injuries....
The reasons for the EOL could be many,just as the reasons for the a/c turning turtle are many,f`rinstance,size of `field`,approach path into same,what height did it all go wrong???
It doesn`t matter whether he was a civvy or ex-mil...everyone can screw-up,or have a technical failure at the wrong time/place,whether you are fighting fires,criminals,weather,or the Taliban.....!!
Gordy,that statement begs the question..have you been in the Mil..?
Anyway,it`s obvious isn`t ; he was flying No.13....
Don`t see it says anywhere that the pilot was Spanish ,or ex-mil FFS ! he was transiting from somewhere to base with 8 pax; there was a major problem,and he did a forced landing...unfortunately,the a/c skidded and turned over;;;however there were no injuries....
The reasons for the EOL could be many,just as the reasons for the a/c turning turtle are many,f`rinstance,size of `field`,approach path into same,what height did it all go wrong???
It doesn`t matter whether he was a civvy or ex-mil...everyone can screw-up,or have a technical failure at the wrong time/place,whether you are fighting fires,criminals,weather,or the Taliban.....!!
Gordy,that statement begs the question..have you been in the Mil..?
Anyway,it`s obvious isn`t ; he was flying No.13....
sycamore
In a former life yes.... "shock, horror---all this time everyone thought I was an obnoxious yank.... Well I am now.. 
but started out on the "dark side".
My former life--second from left, back row:
Gordy,that statement begs the question..have you been in the Mil..?
but started out on the "dark side".My former life--second from left, back row:
Gordy,well there`s a thing..Nimrod Fincastle Trophy Crew as well,unless it means something else....!
There should be no reason for a military pilot not having good handling skills,from whichever side of the fence he has operated.He should have also had a bagful of adaptability,and experience,especially helo pilots,whether `pinger,trucker/trash hauler,or sar-boy...
Taking off the uniform should require a bit of a transplant and instruction to `open the eyes,the ears,keep the mouth shut,unless you want to ask a question,or you know more `...`WIWON` won`t do one any favours...Anyway you have proven the case.....
We won`t have a Transatlantic fight over it ,I`m sure..
There should be no reason for a military pilot not having good handling skills,from whichever side of the fence he has operated.He should have also had a bagful of adaptability,and experience,especially helo pilots,whether `pinger,trucker/trash hauler,or sar-boy...
Taking off the uniform should require a bit of a transplant and instruction to `open the eyes,the ears,keep the mouth shut,unless you want to ask a question,or you know more `...`WIWON` won`t do one any favours...Anyway you have proven the case.....
We won`t have a Transatlantic fight over it ,I`m sure..
No transatlantic flight needed....unless you are coming for beers...
Not a Fincastle crew---we were not allowed to participate. I was on the Nimrod Flight Trials Crew, (NFTC), part of 18 Group Group Standards Unit, (GSU). We used to be called the NFTU, (Unit), it was changed to "Crew" when we merged with the GSU.
I emigrated Stateside over 20 years ago, and now fly Fire Helicopters on contract to the US Forest Service for most of the year. Over here the average military pilot getting out these days has very few hours and is not adapt at working in the field with little or no support crew behind him---hence my comments. Typically they can maybe fly the aircraft unaided, (as in without a co-pilot), but it is all the ancillary stuff that goes with it that they lack.
Not a Fincastle crew---we were not allowed to participate. I was on the Nimrod Flight Trials Crew, (NFTC), part of 18 Group Group Standards Unit, (GSU). We used to be called the NFTU, (Unit), it was changed to "Crew" when we merged with the GSU.
I emigrated Stateside over 20 years ago, and now fly Fire Helicopters on contract to the US Forest Service for most of the year. Over here the average military pilot getting out these days has very few hours and is not adapt at working in the field with little or no support crew behind him---hence my comments. Typically they can maybe fly the aircraft unaided, (as in without a co-pilot), but it is all the ancillary stuff that goes with it that they lack.
Gordy's views on Military pilots making the conversion to civlian flying match mine exactly.
The tasks are sometimes similar as Geoffers suggests but only to a point.
In the Mob the Pilot generally is an Officer (sometimes a Gentleman) and sees himself in that way out of habit brought on by the system he finds himself working within.
One slides into your jeans and tee-shirt (black trousers and white shirt/nomex pickle suit) and you "Officer" status just went out the window. You are just another working stiff with a special skill...just as the fuel truck (bowser) driver, mechanic (engineer), and anyone else on the crew. Your crew might be just you...you and the spanner ****** or even a couple of ground support folks and not a couple of dozen folks of all ranks and hat badges. You are the primary contact with the customer who you have to keep happy....and work for your boss fellah who you also have to keep happy. You don't have access to all sorts of support structure, have to make your own decisions, and do so without any supervision generally.
Most utility operations are single pilot....it is not unusual for you to be sat on the wrong side of the aircraft if you are long lining (think Bell Mediums here), and you spend most your time hanging out in the middle of the H-V diagram you learned never to enter. There are few if any SOP's that apply to every situation you can find yourself confronted with...and no one handy you can seek advice from.
The military trains pilots to a common standard....they are big on standardization as they are large organizations. Independent thought is not encouraged...and in most outfits not desired. Training is very controlled....done to a script and follow a gouge sheet with lots of boxes to be "x'ed" out...and if it ain't on the checklist...it does not get done.
Military Pilots are no different skill wise than civilian pilots....there are good ones and there are no so good ones. Military slingloading compared to using Long Lines is like apples and oranges...both are fruit but still completely different. IFR at 200 feet over the Oggin is good for control technique and ulcers but has nothing to do with IFR flight in Controlled airspace and on Airways...again Apples and Oranges.
Gordy is right....the trick in converting to Civilian flying for a Military pilot is to be able to "learn" how to adapt, learn from others experienced in the work, and changing gears from being in a very controlled environment to one where you have to function pretty much on your own in a world fraught with hazards, risks, pressures, and an environment you are not experienced in.
When I screened Resume's....I looked for Pilots...Aviators...guys and gals with hands on experience and as much independent duty as possible. Rank and shed loads of "unit command" experience was actually a detriment. I looked for folks who could do the job and not just tell me how it should be done. A good clue on how the guy would fit in would be at the end of the pre-employment check ride....when I pointed out the scrub bucket, brush, and water hose. Stick yer beak up in the air over washing the aircraft and you got turned down flat.
The tasks are sometimes similar as Geoffers suggests but only to a point.
In the Mob the Pilot generally is an Officer (sometimes a Gentleman) and sees himself in that way out of habit brought on by the system he finds himself working within.
One slides into your jeans and tee-shirt (black trousers and white shirt/nomex pickle suit) and you "Officer" status just went out the window. You are just another working stiff with a special skill...just as the fuel truck (bowser) driver, mechanic (engineer), and anyone else on the crew. Your crew might be just you...you and the spanner ****** or even a couple of ground support folks and not a couple of dozen folks of all ranks and hat badges. You are the primary contact with the customer who you have to keep happy....and work for your boss fellah who you also have to keep happy. You don't have access to all sorts of support structure, have to make your own decisions, and do so without any supervision generally.
Most utility operations are single pilot....it is not unusual for you to be sat on the wrong side of the aircraft if you are long lining (think Bell Mediums here), and you spend most your time hanging out in the middle of the H-V diagram you learned never to enter. There are few if any SOP's that apply to every situation you can find yourself confronted with...and no one handy you can seek advice from.
The military trains pilots to a common standard....they are big on standardization as they are large organizations. Independent thought is not encouraged...and in most outfits not desired. Training is very controlled....done to a script and follow a gouge sheet with lots of boxes to be "x'ed" out...and if it ain't on the checklist...it does not get done.
Military Pilots are no different skill wise than civilian pilots....there are good ones and there are no so good ones. Military slingloading compared to using Long Lines is like apples and oranges...both are fruit but still completely different. IFR at 200 feet over the Oggin is good for control technique and ulcers but has nothing to do with IFR flight in Controlled airspace and on Airways...again Apples and Oranges.
Gordy is right....the trick in converting to Civilian flying for a Military pilot is to be able to "learn" how to adapt, learn from others experienced in the work, and changing gears from being in a very controlled environment to one where you have to function pretty much on your own in a world fraught with hazards, risks, pressures, and an environment you are not experienced in.
When I screened Resume's....I looked for Pilots...Aviators...guys and gals with hands on experience and as much independent duty as possible. Rank and shed loads of "unit command" experience was actually a detriment. I looked for folks who could do the job and not just tell me how it should be done. A good clue on how the guy would fit in would be at the end of the pre-employment check ride....when I pointed out the scrub bucket, brush, and water hose. Stick yer beak up in the air over washing the aircraft and you got turned down flat.
