Cumbria Helicopter crash discussion
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From: Alles über die platz
Character traits that I have read;
His wife,
‘hard to live with, strong-willed and argumentative’
sometimes absent-mindedly driving over her roses as he rushed about in a digger doing jobs
His mother;
“He used to laugh and get frustrated by officialdom.
Himself;
“I had to ignore them because I knew what I was doing was right.”
Articles;
But his business acumen was bound up with a disregard for authority.
Earlier this year he illegally dropped a paraglider from his helicopter at 10,000ft and was fined £400 when footage of the stunt was posted online.
Mr Weir was not the type of man to let little things like rules stand in the way of his vision.
Would the legal team really be able to do me for slander?
I am merely repeating from published material in the public domain quotes from his own family and an incident already on the 'legal register'.
Fishbang, you may well have met Mark, but when you met him was it a dark wet windy night after a hard days work and a drive through the bad weather with possibly a pile of paperwork to sort out? Or was it with your wife on a day when he could drop everything and spent the next 2 hours with you? Was there also time to be bundled into a Jeep and driven up the mountain side and into the mine. Was there even more time to show you how roof slates were fashioned by hand.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not for one second doubting that Mark was a great character to be around, just that at this particular time something made him phone his wife, tell her that he loved her, get into the aircraft and take off.
Have you had a Look at a bigger picture, or even CAP737 ?
His wife,
‘hard to live with, strong-willed and argumentative’
sometimes absent-mindedly driving over her roses as he rushed about in a digger doing jobs
His mother;
“He used to laugh and get frustrated by officialdom.
Himself;
“I had to ignore them because I knew what I was doing was right.”
Articles;
But his business acumen was bound up with a disregard for authority.
Earlier this year he illegally dropped a paraglider from his helicopter at 10,000ft and was fined £400 when footage of the stunt was posted online.
Mr Weir was not the type of man to let little things like rules stand in the way of his vision.
Would the legal team really be able to do me for slander?
I am merely repeating from published material in the public domain quotes from his own family and an incident already on the 'legal register'.
Fishbang, you may well have met Mark, but when you met him was it a dark wet windy night after a hard days work and a drive through the bad weather with possibly a pile of paperwork to sort out? Or was it with your wife on a day when he could drop everything and spent the next 2 hours with you? Was there also time to be bundled into a Jeep and driven up the mountain side and into the mine. Was there even more time to show you how roof slates were fashioned by hand.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not for one second doubting that Mark was a great character to be around, just that at this particular time something made him phone his wife, tell her that he loved her, get into the aircraft and take off.
Have you had a Look at a bigger picture, or even CAP737 ?
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
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From: Alles über die platz
More to Gordys post,
B52CRSH2
I know its only a website, but;
etc
Hard to understand how these things happen to good folk isn't it fbw?
B52CRSH2
I know its only a website, but;
I knew Bud Holland having worked in Tanker Stan/Eval just down the hall from him for over a year. Impressions of events are always different depending on if you know the person or not. He was one of the nicest people I knew.
I flew and worked with Bud at K.I. Sawyer AFB. He was a super person and great pilot. Unfortunately, he got into a position, even with his great skill, he couldn't get out of. He is saving lives today. This accident is a case study in major airline human factors training.
He was planning on retiring the following month, he had nothing to prove so why would he go and "show off"? He knew how to push the limits but would never endanger his crew.
I flew and worked with Bud at K.I. Sawyer AFB. He was a super person and great pilot. Unfortunately, he got into a position, even with his great skill, he couldn't get out of. He is saving lives today. This accident is a case study in major airline human factors training.
He was planning on retiring the following month, he had nothing to prove so why would he go and "show off"? He knew how to push the limits but would never endanger his crew.
Hard to understand how these things happen to good folk isn't it fbw?
Joined: Nov 2004
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From: UK
fisbang - you may not have said weather was the cause, but you did rule it out as a factor.
It WAS a factor, and invariably is, that's a FACT!
One should not necessarily believe the press, who so frequently make a hash of reporting aviation incidents/accidents in their desire to publish anything they think might make "juicy" copy.
Professional or experienced pilots do not need to know the individual to make comments on the "character traits" most specifically demonstrated by video "evidence" posted online, but added to by many of those who have posted in tribute. The fact that so many have mentioned (positively) how he used to thumb his nose at authority, does not necessarily translate into a positive, as far as piloting is concerned.
There appears little doubt that this fellow was a significant character in the area; a friend to many; and the arbiter of many good works in his, sadly shortened, life. Tomorrow will demonstrate the affection that many had for him & one would hope will be a full celebration of a life well lived. RIP.
Sadly, when the dust has settled, people will be reminded that history is littered with other "well-respected, larger-than-life, glass half full, characters" who've met tragic ends, and where subsequent evidence so often paints a picture that includes colours beyond the spectrum of those viewed in life!
[and just as I get back from business to post this, I note SS is on the same wavelength!]
We all know it was wild windy dark and wet but that does not mean that was a factor
By character traits what do you mean......did you know and understand him as a person or are you judging him by what you read in the press....
Professional or experienced pilots do not need to know the individual to make comments on the "character traits" most specifically demonstrated by video "evidence" posted online, but added to by many of those who have posted in tribute. The fact that so many have mentioned (positively) how he used to thumb his nose at authority, does not necessarily translate into a positive, as far as piloting is concerned.
There appears little doubt that this fellow was a significant character in the area; a friend to many; and the arbiter of many good works in his, sadly shortened, life. Tomorrow will demonstrate the affection that many had for him & one would hope will be a full celebration of a life well lived. RIP.
Sadly, when the dust has settled, people will be reminded that history is littered with other "well-respected, larger-than-life, glass half full, characters" who've met tragic ends, and where subsequent evidence so often paints a picture that includes colours beyond the spectrum of those viewed in life!
[and just as I get back from business to post this, I note SS is on the same wavelength!]
Joined: Jan 2004
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From: An ATC centre this side of the moon.
Well sorry guys.....looks like I will step back now and let you profesionals debate the cause of Marks demise....when you have come to your conclusions maybe you could pass on your findings to the AAIB....I am affraid I dont suffer fools gladly so please excuse me now I have a funeral to attend.
Joined: Apr 2006
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From: In the mountains
So often, PPL's do favours that professionals should be doing, where they obviously don't have the skill or training for, pushing that limit beyond their capabilities that little extra every time.
CRM reminds us as commercial pilots to take that step back and reassess ones attitudes and adjust it back to where we should be as pilots - and this is lacking in the PPL circus.
How often does a PP have a flight test? - NOT OFTEN ENOUGH
How many hours does a PP have to fly every year to stay current? - NOT ENOUGH
What CRM training does a PP have to do? - NOTHING
How often do PP crash......................!!!
One day, CAA will wake up to this fact and start putting harsher restrictions on PPL's making it all a bit safer out there, as was done for C&ATPL's... But hey, what you don't know can't hurt you...
Could you imagine where this discussion would be going if he had had three kids in the helicopter with him at the time... I would think that a lot of people would have a very different opinion.
CRM reminds us as commercial pilots to take that step back and reassess ones attitudes and adjust it back to where we should be as pilots - and this is lacking in the PPL circus.
How often does a PP have a flight test? - NOT OFTEN ENOUGH
How many hours does a PP have to fly every year to stay current? - NOT ENOUGH
What CRM training does a PP have to do? - NOTHING
How often do PP crash......................!!!
One day, CAA will wake up to this fact and start putting harsher restrictions on PPL's making it all a bit safer out there, as was done for C&ATPL's... But hey, what you don't know can't hurt you...
Could you imagine where this discussion would be going if he had had three kids in the helicopter with him at the time... I would think that a lot of people would have a very different opinion.
Joined: Jan 2004
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From: An ATC centre this side of the moon.
Droopy..
There we go again...more assumptions! Mark took off about 1900, the wreckage was found at 0100 the next day.....So tell me, what time did he crash???
Is it known whether there was someone to see the aircraft off? To crash unnoticed close to the mine would seem to indicate not...
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From: An ATC centre this side of the moon.
zorab...
I can confirm that indeed.....last month I gave evidence at the Colin McCrae fatal accident inquiry...if you read the "Sun" the next day they had totally reversed the evidence I gave as I guess it sounded a wee bit more juicy!!!
One should not necessarily believe the press, who so frequently make a hash of reporting aviation incidents/accidents in their desire to publish anything they think might make "juicy" copy.
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From: Near the bottom
fisbang
At the risk of sounding judgmental, it seems to me as though the relationship you built with Mark during the frequent RT and subsequent meeting, has made you unreasonably defensive when it comes to hearing the views of experienced pilots, both professional and private. This thread is for the exchange of views on the factors that may have led to this unfortunate incident. The original thread, is for tributes, etc. If you're not prepared to accept the views or share in the speculation posted by others on this thread, then with the greatest respect, stay away!
I also knew Mark quite well. He would be the first to admit he took risks, although he didn't rate those risks in quite the same way as some of those around him. I remember him telling me about the time when he arrived to greet a BBC film crew at Honister, coming over a blind crest at zero level, then climbing vertically, wing over, followed by a vertical dive into the valley ending with a quick stop over the pad. He was proud of it and I wasn't the first to tell him he was an accident waiting to happen, but he'd laugh and it was obvious he enjoyed breaking 'the rules'. After all, what could possibly go wrong?
I've lost several mates in flying accidents over the years; only one was a victim of a pure and catastrophic mechanical failure. All the others, despite their experience, would regularly push their luck and would get away with it, time and time again. 'Pushing their luck' became habitual and their egos soared. They secretly enjoyed their reputation for being mavericks. Then one day, another circumstance or two unexpectedly crept into the equation; bad weather, tech problem, whatever. By then though, their ego had developed into a sense of invincibility and it was likely that they were not even aware of the seriousness of the situation until it was too late.
Anyway, back to the point. We know Mark definitely flouted the rule book and was always pushing the boundaries, but even he wouldn't have lifted (on his own and with no audience to play to) unless he was confident he could fly home safely. His ego may have affected his confidence and therefore decision making, but given the proximity of the crash site, I'm sure bad weather wasn't the only factor.
Didn't Mark's Gazelle have SAS fitted?
At the risk of sounding judgmental, it seems to me as though the relationship you built with Mark during the frequent RT and subsequent meeting, has made you unreasonably defensive when it comes to hearing the views of experienced pilots, both professional and private. This thread is for the exchange of views on the factors that may have led to this unfortunate incident. The original thread, is for tributes, etc. If you're not prepared to accept the views or share in the speculation posted by others on this thread, then with the greatest respect, stay away!
I also knew Mark quite well. He would be the first to admit he took risks, although he didn't rate those risks in quite the same way as some of those around him. I remember him telling me about the time when he arrived to greet a BBC film crew at Honister, coming over a blind crest at zero level, then climbing vertically, wing over, followed by a vertical dive into the valley ending with a quick stop over the pad. He was proud of it and I wasn't the first to tell him he was an accident waiting to happen, but he'd laugh and it was obvious he enjoyed breaking 'the rules'. After all, what could possibly go wrong?
I've lost several mates in flying accidents over the years; only one was a victim of a pure and catastrophic mechanical failure. All the others, despite their experience, would regularly push their luck and would get away with it, time and time again. 'Pushing their luck' became habitual and their egos soared. They secretly enjoyed their reputation for being mavericks. Then one day, another circumstance or two unexpectedly crept into the equation; bad weather, tech problem, whatever. By then though, their ego had developed into a sense of invincibility and it was likely that they were not even aware of the seriousness of the situation until it was too late.
Anyway, back to the point. We know Mark definitely flouted the rule book and was always pushing the boundaries, but even he wouldn't have lifted (on his own and with no audience to play to) unless he was confident he could fly home safely. His ego may have affected his confidence and therefore decision making, but given the proximity of the crash site, I'm sure bad weather wasn't the only factor.
Didn't Mark's Gazelle have SAS fitted?
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From: Near the bottom
Mark took off about 1900, the wreckage was found at 0100 the next day.....So tell me, what time did he crash???
Joined: Sep 2003
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From: Redding CA, or on a fire somewhere
Fishbang...
In the words of toptobottom, who could not have put it any better:
I concur....
In the words of toptobottom, who could not have put it any better:
fisbang
This thread is for the exchange of views on the factors that may have led to this unfortunate incident. The original thread, is for tributes, etc. If you're not prepared to accept the views or share in the speculation posted by others on this thread, then with the greatest respect, stay away!
This thread is for the exchange of views on the factors that may have led to this unfortunate incident. The original thread, is for tributes, etc. If you're not prepared to accept the views or share in the speculation posted by others on this thread, then with the greatest respect, stay away!
Joined: Jan 2003
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From: Near the bottom
That was in the prepared statement from the family and staff at the mine (at the start of the original thread). I think Mark phone Jan just before he lifted.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
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From: Alles über die platz
Thanks ttb,
I was just wondering if the departure time came from a member of staff that was there, or an educated guess, which then got me to think (while doing the post roast washing up) about something fishbang said earlier,
It's a pity that there wasn't some local flight following setup or LS supervision, because if there was someone at the LS which was only 200m downwind of the crash site might have heard something. Failing that, perhaps the minimum of a receiver that staff could monitor. Perhaps a Mayday was called on the selected freq in the hope of someone listening.
But in reality, I guess that is a bit to much to ask and I accept is totally in hindsight. However, Police Air Ops changed the flight following system after the crash seconds after take off at East Mids, perhaps this incident will do the same.
I was just wondering if the departure time came from a member of staff that was there, or an educated guess, which then got me to think (while doing the post roast washing up) about something fishbang said earlier,
I knew Mark and often spoke on a daily basis through my job.....unlike many he always thought it to be a good idea to talk to someone whilst operating in a remote environment.
But in reality, I guess that is a bit to much to ask and I accept is totally in hindsight. However, Police Air Ops changed the flight following system after the crash seconds after take off at East Mids, perhaps this incident will do the same.
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From: An ATC centre this side of the moon.
Silsoe....
There is.....thats how I used to speak to him often " Scottish Information" The only problem is as you are probably aware VHF comms are line of sight so once he entered the Honister Pass I would lose comms from my TX/RX site in southern Scotland.
Topbottom....
One thing we never do in ATC is assume "It makes asses of u and me".....no, I guess he was not on a sight-seeing trip but may have flown north west down the valley before for what ever reason turning back.......its more than likely though he did crash seconds after take-off but surely you get my drift......all those of you that have commented and tried to put the pilot down by making press quotes and showing what you feel are dodgy flights as shown on youtube are making your judgements on assumptions!!! something we in aviation should never do...and no I am not upset at your comments because I knew Mark, just upset at your comments because you base none of them on known fact...its always the same on pprune when an accident happens...the gouls normally come out with their know better comments..!!!
It's a pity that there wasn't some local flight following setup or LS supervision
Topbottom....
Given the weather and time of day, I can't imagine he was going on a sight-seeing trip, so isn't it reasonable to assume that the crash occurred a few seconds after he lifted?!
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From: UK
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
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From: Alles über die platz
MD600, very interesting thanks.
FIshbang;
There is.....thats how I used to speak to him often " Scottish Information" The only problem is as you are probably aware VHF comms are line of sight so once he entered the Honister Pass I would lose comms from my TX/RX site in southern Scotland.
Exactly what I mean fb, a 'local flight follow' ie when in the Pass, a member of staff monitoring the take off/initial transition until Scottish are contacted. Monitoring same freq from office maybe.
I think we all know about assuming thank you, however sometimes assumption can be a good thing.
For example, 'I assume that if I go too far around this valley with this low level cloud, it will close up behind me'.
Aren't you assuming that because he was a very nice & decent chap, and by all accounts a good pilot that knew the area well, that the cause was mechanical failure?
I'd also like to know what your assumption of his flying ability is based on.
FIshbang;
It's a pity that there wasn't some local flight following setup or LS supervision
I think we all know about assuming thank you, however sometimes assumption can be a good thing.
For example, 'I assume that if I go too far around this valley with this low level cloud, it will close up behind me'.
Aren't you assuming that because he was a very nice & decent chap, and by all accounts a good pilot that knew the area well, that the cause was mechanical failure?
I'd also like to know what your assumption of his flying ability is based on.
