Cumbria Helicopter crash discussion
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Brassed off.
What you seem to forget is that this is a professional pilots rumour forum. This is a place where pilots should be free to speculate on accidents and by doing so possibly open up the eyes of newer pilots to some of the many hazards associated with helicopter flying.
In this particular case I am told that the accident occurred at last light in low visibility and bad weather in hilly terrain. It was flown by a 'type A' personality who has been filmed flying his helicopter in a questionable fashion and was trying to get home. The pilot was a not rated for flight in IMC and neither was the helicopter. The photographs of the accident show a high speed forward impact with terrain.
Now despite these facts it might be revealed that the helicopter suffered a mechanical failure which resulted in the accident. This will be revealed in the AAIB report some time in the future when everyone except the pilots family will have forgotten about this.
I didn't know the pilot but even if I did it should be no reason not to speculate on the causes. Helicopters do not fly into hillsides on their own. If I knew the pilot and his family I would have called to his home by now with my condolences and any practical help that I could give but it wouldn't prevent me from having an opinion on the causes and if his wife asked for my professional opinion I would tell her - as I hope that my pilot friends would do with my wife. Wives know their husbands better then we think.
One sad prediction I can make is that more pilots this year will die from flying into terrain in low visibility in perfectly serviceable helicopters leaving behind grieving families. Quite possibly someone reading this now. If debating the causes of this particular accident makes just one of them think twice about trying to get squeeze through the hills in IMC to get home then it has served its purpose.
What you seem to forget is that this is a professional pilots rumour forum. This is a place where pilots should be free to speculate on accidents and by doing so possibly open up the eyes of newer pilots to some of the many hazards associated with helicopter flying.
In this particular case I am told that the accident occurred at last light in low visibility and bad weather in hilly terrain. It was flown by a 'type A' personality who has been filmed flying his helicopter in a questionable fashion and was trying to get home. The pilot was a not rated for flight in IMC and neither was the helicopter. The photographs of the accident show a high speed forward impact with terrain.
Now despite these facts it might be revealed that the helicopter suffered a mechanical failure which resulted in the accident. This will be revealed in the AAIB report some time in the future when everyone except the pilots family will have forgotten about this.
I didn't know the pilot but even if I did it should be no reason not to speculate on the causes. Helicopters do not fly into hillsides on their own. If I knew the pilot and his family I would have called to his home by now with my condolences and any practical help that I could give but it wouldn't prevent me from having an opinion on the causes and if his wife asked for my professional opinion I would tell her - as I hope that my pilot friends would do with my wife. Wives know their husbands better then we think.
One sad prediction I can make is that more pilots this year will die from flying into terrain in low visibility in perfectly serviceable helicopters leaving behind grieving families. Quite possibly someone reading this now. If debating the causes of this particular accident makes just one of them think twice about trying to get squeeze through the hills in IMC to get home then it has served its purpose.
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Epiphany.....Please stop the speculation, lets just report the facts as we know..!!
Those are.... Mark Weir was the happiest,loving,most generous and hard working person anyone could have met.
His life was brought to a sudden and tragic end when his helicopter impacted with the ground.
Those are the known facts....anything else is pure speculation and to be honest disturbs those folk ( myself included) that knew Mark well.
Those are.... Mark Weir was the happiest,loving,most generous and hard working person anyone could have met.
His life was brought to a sudden and tragic end when his helicopter impacted with the ground.
Those are the known facts....anything else is pure speculation and to be honest disturbs those folk ( myself included) that knew Mark well.
.
Hear hear!
S.
If debating the causes of this particular accident makes just one of them think twice about trying to squeeze through the hills in IMC to get home then it has served its purpose.
S.
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Epiphany, I totally agree with your last post.
Fishbang, Whatever your interpretation of the facts, the aircraft took off in bad weather and was flown into the ground. It doesn't appear to have landed under any form of control, a straight pile in, perhaps we would expect the tail to hit the ground first if any sudden low level avoiding action was taken at that speed/height.
If you think the AAIB is going to base any report on what we here speculate on, you're wrong.
If this reminds us of the perils of bad weather, and stops any of us pushing it just a little bit too much, then we have all learnt from it.
Fishbang, Whatever your interpretation of the facts, the aircraft took off in bad weather and was flown into the ground. It doesn't appear to have landed under any form of control, a straight pile in, perhaps we would expect the tail to hit the ground first if any sudden low level avoiding action was taken at that speed/height.
If you think the AAIB is going to base any report on what we here speculate on, you're wrong.
If this reminds us of the perils of bad weather, and stops any of us pushing it just a little bit too much, then we have all learnt from it.
Last edited by SilsoeSid; 19th Mar 2011 at 11:43.
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Gordy,
Couldn't agree more, however what you learn depends on the facts surrounding the mistake.
If people "learn" from their own interpetation of an event there is no guarantee what you are learning is correct, that is the whole point of having a team of trained experts dedicated to publishing all the facts from an incident, so that all others have the right information to reduce the risk of the same event occuring again or even other events occuring due to preconceived misconceptions.
Epiphany commented on having to wait till 2012 for the aaib report for the facts and seemed to hint towards not being too concerned about the incident if the weather conditions were harsh.A concerning comment to say the least, a prejudgment of the situation (granted based on experience and knowledge of the industry) but without possession of all the facts, a prejudgment nonetheless. It's these types of actions that human factors is trying to overcome.
Are you saying that if the flying conditions were good your concerns would lead you to not fly? What if someone posted some duff info regarding a particular part of the aircraft? Would you insist the engineers focus their attention towards it(possibly increasing their workload or shifting attention) or even refrain from using something because your confidence in the system has diminished even though it turns out to be nothing more than hearsay?
It matters not how long the facts take to come out as long as they are thorough and correct when they do, altering your beliefs and/or actions based on anything else before that time is at best foolish, at worse dangerous.
Mistakes are for learning.
If people "learn" from their own interpetation of an event there is no guarantee what you are learning is correct, that is the whole point of having a team of trained experts dedicated to publishing all the facts from an incident, so that all others have the right information to reduce the risk of the same event occuring again or even other events occuring due to preconceived misconceptions.
Epiphany commented on having to wait till 2012 for the aaib report for the facts and seemed to hint towards not being too concerned about the incident if the weather conditions were harsh.A concerning comment to say the least, a prejudgment of the situation (granted based on experience and knowledge of the industry) but without possession of all the facts, a prejudgment nonetheless. It's these types of actions that human factors is trying to overcome.
Are you saying that if the flying conditions were good your concerns would lead you to not fly? What if someone posted some duff info regarding a particular part of the aircraft? Would you insist the engineers focus their attention towards it(possibly increasing their workload or shifting attention) or even refrain from using something because your confidence in the system has diminished even though it turns out to be nothing more than hearsay?
It matters not how long the facts take to come out as long as they are thorough and correct when they do, altering your beliefs and/or actions based on anything else before that time is at best foolish, at worse dangerous.
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Good point Bravo73,
When you put the vids together with the location of the crash site, 200 metres south-east of the Honister slate mine, and have a look at google maps, its very hard not to speculate.
Dare I mention 'Suckers Gap'?
When you put the vids together with the location of the crash site, 200 metres south-east of the Honister slate mine, and have a look at google maps, its very hard not to speculate.
Dare I mention 'Suckers Gap'?
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Silsoesid...
Yes you can speculate but you seem convinced that because the weather was bad that must have been the cause!!!!! What are you going to gain by your constant reffering to the weather? We all know it was wild windy dark and wet but that does not mean that was a factor.......we have also to accept it could have been mechanical failure or indeed pilot error...maybe we will never know...so be honest at this stage what can you learn from your constant speculation.....only time hopefully will tell!!
Whatever your interpretation of the facts, the aircraft took off in bad weather and was flown into the ground. It doesn't appear to have landed under any form of control, a straight pile in, perhaps we would expect the tail to hit the ground first if any sudden low level avoiding action was taken at that speed/height.
Fishbangwallop
Correct me if I am wrong, but your statement is NOT FACT. It is OPINION. You just lost any argument you might have had.
lugs4744
I think Epiphany answered this in the way I was trying to....
Onto your next point:
Yes I would.....I would tell my mechanic that I heard a rumor that "part y" might have failed and ask his opinion and ask him to check ours. I would be remiss in my duties if I did not.
Do you REALLY believe that. I guarantee that every nuclear power plant in California is looking at their back up cooling systems right now--maybe they should wait for the facts in a few years.
I always thought this site was called
Maybe we are all getting our words mixed up. From now on we will all start our speculations with the words; RUMOR HAS IT, I notice that nobody has been dis-respectful, and more importantly the mods have not stopped any of the rumors and speculation. I applaud them.
Mark Weir was the happiest,loving,most generous and hard working person anyone could have met.
Those are the known facts
Those are the known facts
lugs4744
If people "learn" from their own interpetation of an event there is no guarantee what you are learning is correct,
reduce the risk of the same event occuring again
If debating the causes of this particular accident makes just one of them think twice about trying to get squeeze through the hills in IMC to get home then it has served its purpose.
What if someone posted some duff info regarding a particular part of the aircraft? Would you insist the engineers focus their attention towards it
It matters not how long the facts take to come out as long as they are thorough and correct when they do, altering your beliefs and/or actions based on anything else before that time is at best foolish, at worse dangerous.
I always thought this site was called
Maybe we are all getting our words mixed up. From now on we will all start our speculations with the words; RUMOR HAS IT, I notice that nobody has been dis-respectful, and more importantly the mods have not stopped any of the rumors and speculation. I applaud them.
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How many times have we been here before on pprune? (answer: many)
pilot crashes...weather not great..fatalities..he was an all round 'good bloke'..tributes..someone dares to suggest it was CFIT...cue lots of upset posts saying 'it could have been a mechanical problem'...discussion eventually dies down...1-2 years later report is issued...no aircraft defects...CFIT.
The simple fact is that if a helicopter crashes and the weather at the time isn't great then 90% of the time the pilot decided to fly in weather that was not suitable and/or beyond their personal, or the aircraft's limits - and they got caught out.
Spend an afternoon reading some AAIB reports - not many mechanical defects, but an awful lot of people flying a perfectly servicable helicopter into the ground.
I'm not saying this was the cause of this accident, but...how many times have we been here before? (particulary with private owners and non-AOC flights).
pilot crashes...weather not great..fatalities..he was an all round 'good bloke'..tributes..someone dares to suggest it was CFIT...cue lots of upset posts saying 'it could have been a mechanical problem'...discussion eventually dies down...1-2 years later report is issued...no aircraft defects...CFIT.
The simple fact is that if a helicopter crashes and the weather at the time isn't great then 90% of the time the pilot decided to fly in weather that was not suitable and/or beyond their personal, or the aircraft's limits - and they got caught out.
Spend an afternoon reading some AAIB reports - not many mechanical defects, but an awful lot of people flying a perfectly servicable helicopter into the ground.
I'm not saying this was the cause of this accident, but...how many times have we been here before? (particulary with private owners and non-AOC flights).
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Your point about the cooling towers is missing the mark, the facts are already known about the cooling towers due to the people still working there and trying to recover from the problems they are witnessing.The causes to what is happening right now are not in dispute and so other plants can start taking action right away.
Unfortunately in some instances there is no way of getting to the cause of an incident right away and, granted some information may come to light during the investigation which is of course released and if there is any doubt about safety further action is taken, such as grounding fleet.
As for your engineer I would hope he would take it upon himself to get in contact with someone with more knowledge of the situation than a pilot with a whim,
such as the investigators or the manufacturer.What do you expect him to do?there may be no inspection procedure for what you want him to take a look at, the problem may even have originated somewhere else, what is he supposed to sign this off iaw?If the engineer came to you and said that he heard from a thread that a crash was caused due to a fault with the autopilot system would you fly with it off or would you seek clarification?Turning off your autopilot increases your workload and risk factor as does getting engineers to carry out needless inspections
Like I said before, engineers have enough to do without being distracted by pilots with a problem that is based on nothing but hearsay.If the investigators or manufacturer say otherwise and issue a formal inspection then fine.
If you have inormation that is substantiated and can be verified then of course this needs to be passed on to everyone concerned in the shortest time possible, any other info has the potential to do more harm than good.
Please do not think I am questioning your intentions, I am not.
Information is a source of learning. But unless it is organized, processed, and available to the right people in a format for decision making, it is a burden, not a benefit. William Pollard.
Unfortunately in some instances there is no way of getting to the cause of an incident right away and, granted some information may come to light during the investigation which is of course released and if there is any doubt about safety further action is taken, such as grounding fleet.
As for your engineer I would hope he would take it upon himself to get in contact with someone with more knowledge of the situation than a pilot with a whim,
such as the investigators or the manufacturer.What do you expect him to do?there may be no inspection procedure for what you want him to take a look at, the problem may even have originated somewhere else, what is he supposed to sign this off iaw?If the engineer came to you and said that he heard from a thread that a crash was caused due to a fault with the autopilot system would you fly with it off or would you seek clarification?Turning off your autopilot increases your workload and risk factor as does getting engineers to carry out needless inspections
Like I said before, engineers have enough to do without being distracted by pilots with a problem that is based on nothing but hearsay.If the investigators or manufacturer say otherwise and issue a formal inspection then fine.
If you have inormation that is substantiated and can be verified then of course this needs to be passed on to everyone concerned in the shortest time possible, any other info has the potential to do more harm than good.
Please do not think I am questioning your intentions, I am not.
Information is a source of learning. But unless it is organized, processed, and available to the right people in a format for decision making, it is a burden, not a benefit. William Pollard.
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fbw
I would strongly suggest the weather is never the "cause" of an accident, but it is, invariably, a "factor", despite what you believe. There is no doubt that poor weather, and/or low light, mean a pilot has more work to do than flying around in 8/8ths blue - which, sadly, is why a significant number of helicopter fatal accidents occur when just such "factors" are in place.
It's poor decisions, and/or discipline, and/or ability, of both pilots and engineers, along with that old chestnut, luck (or running out of it), that actually "cause" accidents. That's not me criticising the individual here, or elsewhere, but it is based on AAIB findings, which you may wish to regard more "fact"ualy.
Precious sensitivites should be left aside as, notwithstanding what a fabulous chap/gal an individual may have been (I'm talking generic accidents, rather than specific, and didn't know Mark), I've lost enough pilot friends & aquaintances over the years to know that they would have wished me to use my professional understanding of known "factors" to speculate on an accident, in order to improve my own chances, having learnt lessons from happened, or may have happened, to them. One should not need to wait many months for an AAIB report to learn lessons which could, through this type of forum and the input & experience of many professionals, have been learnt earlier.
If speculation & discussion help to persuade another pilot to think twice, before venturing into a potentially fatal unknown, it actually doesn't matter if it turns out to be wrong in a particular case - all that's needed is for others to think twice. Whilst AAIB reports may delve into the facts of fatal accidents, they can never report the mindset of the deceased - unlike the excellent "I learnt about flying from that" articles that used to be published by the military and which taught many others lessons, including, invariably, the writer - as he'd lived to tell the tale! It's learning from these personal experiences that add to the constitution of the professional pilot - and yes, private pilots can are often "professional" too.
The sky has always been/is/will be a risky environment, a "fact" of which our nearest & dearest should be more than aware. As helicopter pilots, we try to become masters of continuous risk-assessing, however much we may thumb our noses at certain areas of "elf & safety"!
The one mantra that I always keep at the back of my mind is from a flight safety poster I saw many years ago. I may not have got the words quite right, but the message is clear. "Flight Safety is no accident, however, the sky, even more so than the sea, is spectaculary unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
I'd concur with Gordy, SS & 123's comments.
. . . you seem convinced that because the weather was bad that must have been the cause!
It's poor decisions, and/or discipline, and/or ability, of both pilots and engineers, along with that old chestnut, luck (or running out of it), that actually "cause" accidents. That's not me criticising the individual here, or elsewhere, but it is based on AAIB findings, which you may wish to regard more "fact"ualy.
Precious sensitivites should be left aside as, notwithstanding what a fabulous chap/gal an individual may have been (I'm talking generic accidents, rather than specific, and didn't know Mark), I've lost enough pilot friends & aquaintances over the years to know that they would have wished me to use my professional understanding of known "factors" to speculate on an accident, in order to improve my own chances, having learnt lessons from happened, or may have happened, to them. One should not need to wait many months for an AAIB report to learn lessons which could, through this type of forum and the input & experience of many professionals, have been learnt earlier.
If speculation & discussion help to persuade another pilot to think twice, before venturing into a potentially fatal unknown, it actually doesn't matter if it turns out to be wrong in a particular case - all that's needed is for others to think twice. Whilst AAIB reports may delve into the facts of fatal accidents, they can never report the mindset of the deceased - unlike the excellent "I learnt about flying from that" articles that used to be published by the military and which taught many others lessons, including, invariably, the writer - as he'd lived to tell the tale! It's learning from these personal experiences that add to the constitution of the professional pilot - and yes, private pilots can are often "professional" too.
The sky has always been/is/will be a risky environment, a "fact" of which our nearest & dearest should be more than aware. As helicopter pilots, we try to become masters of continuous risk-assessing, however much we may thumb our noses at certain areas of "elf & safety"!
The one mantra that I always keep at the back of my mind is from a flight safety poster I saw many years ago. I may not have got the words quite right, but the message is clear. "Flight Safety is no accident, however, the sky, even more so than the sea, is spectaculary unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
I'd concur with Gordy, SS & 123's comments.
Last edited by zorab64; 19th Mar 2011 at 17:06. Reason: Reads better now!
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"Aviation in itself is not inherently dangerous. But to an even greater degree than the sea, it is terribly unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
— Captain A. G. Lamplugh, British Aviation Insurance Group, London. c. early 1930's
Hear hear Zorab.
I've had my tangles with the moderators on a number of occasions on and offline! But prais where praise is due, the whole site is run very professionally and I for one wouldn't want to see it change.
Which brings me to the main issue: PPrune MUST remain just that and oldies like ourselves need to remind one off visitors (and that is the majority of complainants) that an enormous amount of information is transferred/learned/gleaned, call it what you will, by speculating about a crash. Bu the time the accident report comes out, the story is old and forgotten by most The lessons learned will have faded into the background (not always but often).
The time to talk is NOW while the memory is fresh.
My second observation is this: Most (again not all) dissenters are not cab drivers. Consequently they fail to understand how the rest of the "fraternity" thinks. We the operators do, on the other hand and as Gordy rightly stated, we would expect, even demand that this sort of speculation goes on. It's part of being a pilot - black humour, rumour mongering, speculation etc etc. It is normal - long may it be so.
Finally - my two penneth worth. Statistically this has CFIT written all over it. I have attended a handfull of these and been first on scene - most of the pilots were not professional pilots, but vocational ones who were trying to enjoy the excitement of flying their machines in their spare time or to assist with their commuting to/from work. The problem is......flying is a perishable skill and requires constant practice almost daily...and that's just to stay confident/competent in good weather. If circumstances change (night/bad weather/mechanical problems/lost/unwell or unfit to fly)...it's a whole new ball game and not for the fainthearted.
Accidents happen and in our industry - more so. That's why it's not a straight forward as it looks.
Good idea to split the two threads.................RIP pal
I've had my tangles with the moderators on a number of occasions on and offline! But prais where praise is due, the whole site is run very professionally and I for one wouldn't want to see it change.
Which brings me to the main issue: PPrune MUST remain just that and oldies like ourselves need to remind one off visitors (and that is the majority of complainants) that an enormous amount of information is transferred/learned/gleaned, call it what you will, by speculating about a crash. Bu the time the accident report comes out, the story is old and forgotten by most The lessons learned will have faded into the background (not always but often).
The time to talk is NOW while the memory is fresh.
My second observation is this: Most (again not all) dissenters are not cab drivers. Consequently they fail to understand how the rest of the "fraternity" thinks. We the operators do, on the other hand and as Gordy rightly stated, we would expect, even demand that this sort of speculation goes on. It's part of being a pilot - black humour, rumour mongering, speculation etc etc. It is normal - long may it be so.
Finally - my two penneth worth. Statistically this has CFIT written all over it. I have attended a handfull of these and been first on scene - most of the pilots were not professional pilots, but vocational ones who were trying to enjoy the excitement of flying their machines in their spare time or to assist with their commuting to/from work. The problem is......flying is a perishable skill and requires constant practice almost daily...and that's just to stay confident/competent in good weather. If circumstances change (night/bad weather/mechanical problems/lost/unwell or unfit to fly)...it's a whole new ball game and not for the fainthearted.
Accidents happen and in our industry - more so. That's why it's not a straight forward as it looks.
Good idea to split the two threads.................RIP pal
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Thomas Coupling...you seem happy to critisise this accident as it involved a non commercial pilot....what were your thoughts after AJ's accident??
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Fishbang,
I'm not saying it was the cause, but it must have been a huge factor.
Read what toptobottom said earlier;
Some other possible factors;
(have a look at google street view and stand by thge 20% sign looking SE)
The weather was bad, but maybe a cars headlights pointed the way down the dark valley showing the way, a way the pilot was familiar with, but the lights disappeared shortly after transitioning....theres another possible factor.
Why on such a bad night did he drive from a job in Keswick to the mine and get into the helicopter to fly home rather than just simply drive home.... there's another possible factor.
Any pressing engagements that night.....another possible factor.
Long tiring day at work followed by a dark wet drive back to the mine & paperwork...other possible factors.
Had he eaten since breakfast...another possible factor.
With every cause, there's a whole shedful of factors that are behind it all. by the way, Single pilot CRM is often scoffed at by some in this community, lets hope this will change some minds.
Yes you can speculate but you seem convinced that because the weather was bad that must have been the cause!!!!! What are you going to gain by your constant reffering to the weather? We all know it was wild windy dark and wet but that does not mean that was a factor.......
Read what toptobottom said earlier;
The fact is, the weather was shocking. Dark, poor viz, sleet and very gusty, high winds. Mark was an accomplished pilot and knew his machine and the surrounding area intimately, but there's little doubt in my mind that the Wx was a contributing factor. I've been to Honister many times and even the slightest wind is funneled down the valley which can catch the unwary off guard.
(have a look at google street view and stand by thge 20% sign looking SE)
The weather was bad, but maybe a cars headlights pointed the way down the dark valley showing the way, a way the pilot was familiar with, but the lights disappeared shortly after transitioning....theres another possible factor.
Why on such a bad night did he drive from a job in Keswick to the mine and get into the helicopter to fly home rather than just simply drive home.... there's another possible factor.
Any pressing engagements that night.....another possible factor.
Long tiring day at work followed by a dark wet drive back to the mine & paperwork...other possible factors.
Had he eaten since breakfast...another possible factor.
With every cause, there's a whole shedful of factors that are behind it all. by the way, Single pilot CRM is often scoffed at by some in this community, lets hope this will change some minds.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
More possible factors
http://www.timesandstar.co.uk/news/other/the-mark-weir-philosophy-better-to-live-a-day-like-a-tiger-than-life-as-a-mouse-
Mark Weir, the owner of Honister Slate Mine, once remarked that is better to live like a tiger for a day than a mouse for life. The words could have been his epitaph.
Entrepreneurial, daredevil, maverick and visionary are just some of the adjectives which spring to mind when his name is mentioned.
Speaking less than a year ago, he said: “My proudest achievement is that I am still alive.
But his business acumen was bound up with a disregard for authority.Earlier this year he illegally dropped a paraglider from his helicopter at 10,000ft and was fined £400 when footage of the stunt was posted online.
He also had a long-running feud with the Lake District National Park Authority, which accused him of flouting planning law at Owerhouse, High Mosser.But Mr Weir was not the type of man to let little things like rules stand in the way of his vision.
He said: “I have had the national park and National Trust against me, trying to get me to stop operations, but I had to ignore them because I knew what I was doing was right.”
Mark Weir, the owner of Honister Slate Mine, once remarked that is better to live like a tiger for a day than a mouse for life. The words could have been his epitaph.
Entrepreneurial, daredevil, maverick and visionary are just some of the adjectives which spring to mind when his name is mentioned.
Speaking less than a year ago, he said: “My proudest achievement is that I am still alive.
But his business acumen was bound up with a disregard for authority.Earlier this year he illegally dropped a paraglider from his helicopter at 10,000ft and was fined £400 when footage of the stunt was posted online.
He also had a long-running feud with the Lake District National Park Authority, which accused him of flouting planning law at Owerhouse, High Mosser.But Mr Weir was not the type of man to let little things like rules stand in the way of his vision.
He said: “I have had the national park and National Trust against me, trying to get me to stop operations, but I had to ignore them because I knew what I was doing was right.”
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This thread does not, nor does it try to replace a host of formal events that follow tragedies such as this one. However, as an example of its type, it has already raised some interesting issues about the host of factors that will always go to create the conditions for such a terrible event, and I have learned (or remembered) some things. Many of those elements will never be raised or discussed in any formal event such as an AAIB report. This does not mean that they are not important. Those of us who actually are pilots know that all sorts of "soft" factors affect the outcome of flights and flight incidents. It is only by thinking of these things that we keep reminding ourselves about how important these soft factors are, and try to improve our future decision making. Of course there is a degree of speculation, but that is one of the things that helps us to maintain the personal discipline that makes us professional pilots. That process is assisted by forums such as this one, in my view.
I don't see the thing in terms of "good" or "bad" or "dangerous" pilots. Those who do think that way, or imply that others do have a rather shallow view of such things. On a particular occasion, any pilot can make mistakes and poor decisions that reduce the barriers to an accident and contribute to that accident. I want to know as much as I can about why those bad decisions were made. There is also almost always a degree of chance about the outcome too, but no pilot can entirely control those.
I know far too many friends and colleagues who I considered as "good" pilots who are now dead. Any thoughts that I have about the circumstances of their deaths does not mean that I changed my view of them as individuals. It does not mean that I have anything other than sadness for the terrible grief caused and frustration at the waste that follows from all such accidents.
I need to know as much as I can about as many accidents and near misses as I can find out about: in that sense I am infinitely curious. As a professional pilot I owe it to those who I fly with to do that. I know that there but for the grace of (a) god, go I.
I am in favour of the way that PPRUNE frequently separates the posts about a particular accident into the normal 2 threads. That seems to me to be appropriate.
I am truly sorry if anyone close to a dead pilot is upset by such discussions that take place. It is voluntary to come on this forum and read the posts on a particular thread which is clearly a forum for professional pilots. That is particularly true where the threads are separated. Discussions on these sorts of threads may prevent accidents: we will never know when, but that makes them worthwhile in my view. Perhaps those close to pilots killed in such accidents may take some comfort from knowing that the discussions about the accident that befell "their" pilot could prevent another accident.
I don't see the thing in terms of "good" or "bad" or "dangerous" pilots. Those who do think that way, or imply that others do have a rather shallow view of such things. On a particular occasion, any pilot can make mistakes and poor decisions that reduce the barriers to an accident and contribute to that accident. I want to know as much as I can about why those bad decisions were made. There is also almost always a degree of chance about the outcome too, but no pilot can entirely control those.
I know far too many friends and colleagues who I considered as "good" pilots who are now dead. Any thoughts that I have about the circumstances of their deaths does not mean that I changed my view of them as individuals. It does not mean that I have anything other than sadness for the terrible grief caused and frustration at the waste that follows from all such accidents.
I need to know as much as I can about as many accidents and near misses as I can find out about: in that sense I am infinitely curious. As a professional pilot I owe it to those who I fly with to do that. I know that there but for the grace of (a) god, go I.
I am in favour of the way that PPRUNE frequently separates the posts about a particular accident into the normal 2 threads. That seems to me to be appropriate.
I am truly sorry if anyone close to a dead pilot is upset by such discussions that take place. It is voluntary to come on this forum and read the posts on a particular thread which is clearly a forum for professional pilots. That is particularly true where the threads are separated. Discussions on these sorts of threads may prevent accidents: we will never know when, but that makes them worthwhile in my view. Perhaps those close to pilots killed in such accidents may take some comfort from knowing that the discussions about the accident that befell "their" pilot could prevent another accident.
Factors Factors Factors
SilsoeSid
I think you have the right approach here - raising a wide number of possibilities like the possibility of pressing engagements to consider as factors rather than being an armchair investigator. Another one to consider would be why had he departed to the East towards Seatoller, rather than northwest towards home?
The other quote from that article you provided the link to
That could be a big factor if it translated into a disregard for flight safety, a disregard for the operational envelope of the Gazelle as a helicopter type, etc.
I think you have the right approach here - raising a wide number of possibilities like the possibility of pressing engagements to consider as factors rather than being an armchair investigator. Another one to consider would be why had he departed to the East towards Seatoller, rather than northwest towards home?
The other quote from that article you provided the link to
He said: “I have had the national park and National Trust against me, trying to get me to stop operations, but I had to ignore them because I knew what I was doing was right.”
Avoid imitations
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Speaking as an ex military QHI, with quite a few hours instructing on the Gazelle, another factor that should be considered by the AAIB, in view of the weather, is the possibility of the canopy misting up inside, either just before, or just after, lift off. It can be a killer, not only in the Gazelle. It is seldom mentioned in accident reports because the evidence quite literally, evaporates.