The future of UK SAR, post SAR-H

[Vie sans frontieres]

Manchester

This has been done to death before. I think most experienced operators accept that if you put a winchman on shift with just three months experience, you might get away with it for a while but you could also find yourselves in an awful pickle.

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Especially if you don't give them the lion's share of the training allocation. Sadly there are some that think winchmen just need to be brave not trained and don't even do night wets for example.

[Spanish Waltzer]

DfT need to put pressure on the contractor to take a large proportion of those mil crews that want to come across in the locations they are currently based. That way you get local knowledge and lots of experience and ability.

I guess there is little doubt that the winning contractor will wish to reduce risk by recruiting a number of current mil SAR crews.

I wonder however whether the contractor, with his shiny new toys, would prefer to place a captain with lots of type experience and perhaps previous SAR or mil experience over a transferred mil SAR captain with lots of local experience but limited if any experience on a modern glass cockpit aircraft?

I guess one solution could have type experienced captains crewed with ex mil SAR experienced co's. not sure whether crab and his colleagues would stomach being crewed that way though....

[NRDK]

Crab, Goggles, Experience

Crab..since when has Old time SAR ops been different from Modern SAR ops?
Pre NVGers got in those valleys too, unless there are some modern Valleys out there now? Yes those wires are a bitch and yes goggles would have made a fly away an option! The new contract will bring the goggles into the Civ cockpit at last and not before time.

Experience..well hopefully the respective base Chief Pilots and managers responsible will have a large say in the CV floated by for consideration. It has been the case up to now (mostly). That should enable the selection of the 'suitable'...'will make a good person to spend endless hours with in the crew room for years to come and a few scary moments in the cockpit enjoyable'. None of the SAR bases (Civ/Mil) want low/high time charisma vacuums.

The only option for staffing the future is to take on as many current SAR crews as possible that we know, followed by experienced Offshore pilots who are 'good eggs' and fancy a change, naturally as a co-pilot first.

[Rescue1]

Quote
"I guess one solution could have type experienced captains crewed with ex mil SAR experienced co's. not sure whether crab and his colleagues would stomach being crewed that way though..."

I don't think Crab will ever experience this problem, As I can't see him ever getting a SAR Job outside the Military with all the "slagging off" he's given the civ crews over the last 6 years.

We are just not good enough for him,

which is a shame because I hear he's a good egg in the crewroom even makes the Coffee.

[Geoffersincornwall]

Cr@b

Well I for one have enjoyed the banter with Cr@b over the years and it's difficult to contemplate life without a good well-informed (if highly opinionated) slagging-off.

Irritating at times but you were never in doubt where he was coming from and when all is said and done it's a proud man that defends his corner so well and we can all respect his commitment.

Like all professionals who speak as they find I'm sure if you give him a chance in the new set-up he will come round to at least recognising that there is room in this world for another point of view.


G.

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Spanish - converting to a glass cockpit is hardly difficult, it took a couple of hours in a 139 to learn where to look for the information as it is displayed differently - after that it is a helicopter when all is said and done. After that it is just systems management which again is not rocket science although those coming from a steam driven simplex autopilot may struggle initially with the flexibility of a modern system.

As for mil in the co-pilot's seat, I think in terms of mission management that is where you need your experience on type dealing with the nav kit, radar, flir and comms and leave the handling to the guy/girl less experienced on type. I refer to my earlier comment about the low hours/no SAR/no multi engine requirement for the co pilots - they often have the highest workload on a SAROp.

NRDK - I did the pre-NVG SAR thing as well and the difficulty of rescues that can be attempted and the relative safety with which they can be completed are greatly enhanced with the advent of NVG/FLIR ops. And I am often the one accused of not moving on and embracing new techniques!!!

[jimf671]

When considering the matter of experience in the change to civilian contractor SAR, I think it's worth examining the period of transition in more depth. Although a quick look at the project programme might suggest a total transition period of 2 years and 3 months, there are other factors to consider.

- The transition started long before April 2015. Civilian SAR on a coastguard contract started in 1971. S-61 started in 1983 and mountain flying was routinely done from about 1990.
- In 2017, civilian crews will have been flying S-92 on maritime, coastal and land SAR missions in the UK SRR for 10 years. Some of what is learnt there will transfer to other modern types.
- Much is yet to be confirmed but next July may bring us more than many expected.
- It's not all about the contract. The regulator has a say in this too. The bidders' training plans are a vital part of both their bids and their AOC applications.
- Everyone takes time with new kit and this is as much about new kit as it is about civilians and contracts. As I understand it, each changeover is on an initial plan of three months. In the past, there has been appropriate flexibility in this matter.
- 12 bases become 10 bases.
- The world is watching. Some of them want a piece of the action too.

[Thomas coupling]

For once Crab, you should be grateful that the CAA will dictate the rules and regs - so inexperienced crews/low hours/"inferior" equipment....won't detrimentally affect the finished product. It WILL be fit for purpose (or no SARAOC).
They are the 'enemy' in the commercial world (tongue in cheek) in terms of smooth operational flow, but deep down inside - everyone wouldn't want it any other way. They have kept the Industry SAFE for the public. The UK has an exemplary record on safety and it's down to the "Authority" really - keeping commercial upstarts in line. Job well done methinks.
The Mil however (in particular the SARF) are only now (last year or so) coming to terms with 'MAA' (the mil equivalent of the CAA on paper (unfortunately not in practice)). And as you know this necessary evil will bring clarity, transparency and enhancements to safety, maintenance and ops, the likes of which you have never known. Welcome to civvy street old boy!
The future of SAR really is in good hands. Enjoy it when you bring your enthusiasm and loyalty across

[[email protected]]

Hmmm...the CAA also allow all sorts of relatively dodgy 'SAR' operations outwith the UK to operate - I have yet to be convinced that the CAA have someone in the regulatory framework who has current UK SAR (including NVG) experience.

The DfT have allowed a very low spec for co-pilots which doesn't fill me with confidence - who advised them on that? the CAA perhaps?

I can't imagine that anything other than the S92 will fit the bill for the contract - it is a safe bet and already proven in role - the danger is that lots of non-SAR S92 drivers will cross over because they are already type-rated and with the company - then you just have to convince the CAA that SAR is just hovering really and away you go - SAR on the cheap with a few experienced captains and co-pilots with no twin time or SAR time.

Can't wait for tricky jobs at the back of Ben Nevis, Gloucester floods, the zigzag steps on the Pyg track on Snowdon - fantastic.

[Thomas coupling]

Oh Crab - and that's where you'd be wrong - big time. 3 of my former colleagues are FOI's with SAR experience up to their eyebrows. Thankfully (and this'll give you ammo) they are all ex RN - phew.
A reminder that the CAA are not allowed to advise - only regulate.

[[email protected]]

Navy SAR!!!!!! Oh well that will mean no PLB homings, no night wets, no procedural IF, no windfarm exercises etc etc.

In fact they probably think that 50 hours per month per flight is too much training since, in the words of a few ex RN SAR posters here, 'anyone can do SAR

Since the Navy only adopted NVG on SAR (after being taught by the crabs) in the fairly recent past, unless your FOI chums are recent departees from the front-line they won't have done that either.

[SARowl]

You go for it Crab@. Give the RN a good kicking while you can, because you'll soon be exCrab@...

[NRDK]

Not only excrab@... there will be no more RAF SAR to crow about

2017 can't happen quick enough, come on the S92 and AW189.

Shame the world is due to end at the completion of 2012! Now that will be a day to avoid duty...the call outs will be mega

[jimf671]

SAR callouts at the end of the world? Definitely a separate thread!

[jimf671]

Now we know why Crab didnt get one of the plum SME jobs in London with the posh hotel andall the trimmings. He just doesnt understand enough about what is going on. TC is correct to point out that there is SAR experience at the CAA. However, some of it is more relevant than RN or RAF.

[[email protected]]

I thought that might generate a reaction or two The RN paranoia about the crabs is most amusing

[Thomas coupling]

Crab,
you mustn't attempt to change history. The RN invented SAR from helos. They have kept it firmly grounded in that it is trully a secondary role, something that needs to be kept on the back burner once they realised there was no mystery to it. Remember - the RN spend 90% of their time flying over inhospitable terrain where ther option to land as an escape route during SAR missions is not available. They invented NVG way back in 1982 doing insertions in through the back door in the Falklands when you were only 25 ().
I don't recall any serious incidents of late where RN SAR cabs,have dented their aircraft - must have been the RAF then that made the news. .
Don't recall any RN cabs landing for ice creams .
Remember the motto: KISS. And this applies to SAR. The RN applies it and the civvies apply it. The CAA are all over the SAROC - it will work and without all the pomp and circumstance that the RAF attach to it . I thank you.

[jimf671]

To be fair TC, it is much harder to get away with anything when you're YELLOW.

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So the RN invented helo SAR and NVG - wow! you guys really do believe your own press

Keep it simple - do no training and write yourselves up for medals every time you get away with something slightly tricky - that's more like it