The future of UK SAR, post SAR-H
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: U.K.
Posts: 368
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From the RAFs very own website....
I know i know I'm just feeding the fish
In the years just after World War Two into the early 1950s very little was thought about helicopters within the RAF. The RAF was mostly concerned with the operation of the relatively new jet aircraft, the Venom, Vampire and Meteor, which, because of their difficulty of operation and unsophisticated technology, saw a significant number of aircraft losses. Unfortunately these also led to loss of aircrew, whose operating area was no longer restricted to the English Channel area where current Air Sea Rescue forces existed. It soon became clear that an UK-wide SAR service was needed. Moreover, agreement was already in place, from 1947, for the Air Ministry to assume responsibility for operation and administration of all search and rescue arrangements for both military and civil aviation.
In the meantime the Royal Navy was evaluating the helicopter as a possible successor to the Sea Otter and as a much more economical replacement for the escort destroyer, which always followed an aircraft carrier during flying operations in case of accident. The Royal Navy was sufficiently confident to order 60 "Dragonfly" helicopters made by Westland Helicopters Ltd, a development of the Sikorsky R-5. The first of these were delivered in 1947 to 705 Squadron, HMS Siskin, Naval Air Base, Gosport, Hampshire. On the night of 31 January / 1 February 1953 extraordinary weather conditions in north west Europe resulted in devastating floods in Holland and along the east coast of England. The full operational strength of 705 Squadron was deployed to Holland to assist with the rescue of people from rooftops, flooded fields, boats and dykes and to ferry medical personnel, supplies and food to remote areas. Approximately 800 people were lifted to safety.
The RAF's interest in Maritime helicopters at this time was centred in the Air/Sea Warfare Development Unit that had evaluated the Hoverfly 1 and 2. However it discarded them when it became apparent that they had no useful function in operational maritime rescue or anti-submarine operations. It was not until the Air Sea Warfare Development Unit moved to RAF St Mawgan in December 1951 and the arrival of the new Sycamore helicopter in February 1952 that the development of maritime helicopter operations was given the impetus that led to the formation of the Helicopter SAR Force that we know today. SAR equipment at the end of 1952 comprised a rope ladder and safety lines. During a deployment of a Sycamore to RAF Linton-on-Ouse, for daily SAR cover at Patrington for Exercise Ardent, it became evident that a winch was essential for sea rescue operations. The first winch arrived in 1953 and was allocated to the newly forming 275 Squadron.
In the meantime the Royal Navy was evaluating the helicopter as a possible successor to the Sea Otter and as a much more economical replacement for the escort destroyer, which always followed an aircraft carrier during flying operations in case of accident. The Royal Navy was sufficiently confident to order 60 "Dragonfly" helicopters made by Westland Helicopters Ltd, a development of the Sikorsky R-5. The first of these were delivered in 1947 to 705 Squadron, HMS Siskin, Naval Air Base, Gosport, Hampshire. On the night of 31 January / 1 February 1953 extraordinary weather conditions in north west Europe resulted in devastating floods in Holland and along the east coast of England. The full operational strength of 705 Squadron was deployed to Holland to assist with the rescue of people from rooftops, flooded fields, boats and dykes and to ferry medical personnel, supplies and food to remote areas. Approximately 800 people were lifted to safety.
The RAF's interest in Maritime helicopters at this time was centred in the Air/Sea Warfare Development Unit that had evaluated the Hoverfly 1 and 2. However it discarded them when it became apparent that they had no useful function in operational maritime rescue or anti-submarine operations. It was not until the Air Sea Warfare Development Unit moved to RAF St Mawgan in December 1951 and the arrival of the new Sycamore helicopter in February 1952 that the development of maritime helicopter operations was given the impetus that led to the formation of the Helicopter SAR Force that we know today. SAR equipment at the end of 1952 comprised a rope ladder and safety lines. During a deployment of a Sycamore to RAF Linton-on-Ouse, for daily SAR cover at Patrington for Exercise Ardent, it became evident that a winch was essential for sea rescue operations. The first winch arrived in 1953 and was allocated to the newly forming 275 Squadron.
An explanation for why Gazelle XW900 crashed in Germany in 1976. Obviously NVG hadn't been invented and Rick Browne and Nick Cook must have been wearing Smartie tubes stuck to their helmets.
Case closed
Maybe this is a Spartacus issue.
We invented NVG, no we invented NVG e.t.c e.t.c e.t.c
Case closed
Maybe this is a Spartacus issue.
We invented NVG, no we invented NVG e.t.c e.t.c e.t.c
Last edited by ericferret; 18th Oct 2012 at 10:23.
Spanish: thank you for that confirmation. Crab take note 
Eric: I refer the good gentleman to:UKSF Gear - Night Vision
Crab take note
[I think with that Gazelle you were speaking of (from 660 Sqdn AH1), what with them being Army wallah's they most probably were flying around with Smartie tubes - having been told by the RN that they were sneaky beaky hi tech spec
Eric: I refer the good gentleman to:UKSF Gear - Night Vision
Crab take note
[I think with that Gazelle you were speaking of (from 660 Sqdn AH1), what with them being Army wallah's they most probably were flying around with Smartie tubes - having been told by the RN that they were sneaky beaky hi tech spec
I think the Americans were a long way ahead of the RN when it came to helo SAR and, as Eric said, the RN weren't the first to use NVG in the brit mil - they might have been the first to use them on operations which is quite a different thing and lots of things were strapped onto aircraft without much thought in the FI.
Having used Gen 3/4 tubes in the FI (unlike most RN pilots) the nights are very, very dark and gen 1 tubes (of the sort they would have had in 1982) would have been of little use and probably lulled crews into a false sense of security.
Strange though that having 'invented' NVG in 1982, it took another 25 years to introduce them to RN SAR - is this because the RN SAR weren't as good as the junglies or just because SAR is seen as a backwater rest tour so no special equipment or training is required?
Not much of an advert for a new professional SAR service in UK aiming for a seamless transition with no loss of capability - depends on whose capability you are comparing the new service with I suppose
Having used Gen 3/4 tubes in the FI (unlike most RN pilots) the nights are very, very dark and gen 1 tubes (of the sort they would have had in 1982) would have been of little use and probably lulled crews into a false sense of security.
Strange though that having 'invented' NVG in 1982, it took another 25 years to introduce them to RN SAR - is this because the RN SAR weren't as good as the junglies or just because SAR is seen as a backwater rest tour so no special equipment or training is required?
Not much of an advert for a new professional SAR service in UK aiming for a seamless transition with no loss of capability - depends on whose capability you are comparing the new service with I suppose
Oooh - scrapping the barrel methinks in para 1. Aren't we all talking about the use of NVD in SAR (read: operations) no-one cares who invented it (AEG, Germans). Come on you can do better defending than that 
The man who first flew the goggles into Chile in 82 was Nige North at the time - off to drop some unexpected guests thru the backdoor. He would take umbrage at them not being effective, methinks.
Atleast when the RAF use NVD in the Falklands, they are land based more or less and only infrequently do they drift far offshore - I watch the stats.
Remember the RN constantly fly to their 'home' which is a dark thing floating on dark stuff in the dark. And the dark thing is also moving too. A tad more challenging than flying to and from a ruddy big island. Ooops, nearly forgot - the RAF aren't allowed to land or take off from ships on NVD are they? Why's that then?
RN didn't need NVD because of their environment - overwater ops. It's only because of its maturity over the years that they adopted them much later.
As long as the essence of civvy ops retains its grass roots (firmly ensconced in RN overwater experience with a soupcon of overland RAF experience), they will do very well in the future thank you very much
Existing civvy ops - QED.
The man who first flew the goggles into Chile in 82 was Nige North at the time - off to drop some unexpected guests thru the backdoor. He would take umbrage at them not being effective, methinks.
Atleast when the RAF use NVD in the Falklands, they are land based more or less and only infrequently do they drift far offshore - I watch the stats.
Remember the RN constantly fly to their 'home' which is a dark thing floating on dark stuff in the dark. And the dark thing is also moving too. A tad more challenging than flying to and from a ruddy big island. Ooops, nearly forgot - the RAF aren't allowed to land or take off from ships on NVD are they? Why's that then?
RN didn't need NVD because of their environment - overwater ops. It's only because of its maturity over the years that they adopted them much later.
As long as the essence of civvy ops retains its grass roots (firmly ensconced in RN overwater experience with a soupcon of overland RAF experience), they will do very well in the future thank you very much
Existing civvy ops - QED.
From the RAFs very own website....
The man who first flew the goggles into Chile in 82 was Nige North at the time
Ooops, nearly forgot - the RAF aren't allowed to land or take off from ships on NVD are they? Why's that then?
Unfortunately that attitude to not needing NVD overwater was probably a contributing factor to the very sad mid air in the gulf. Both crews would have seen each other had they been wearing goggles.
The soupcon of overland experience means you don't watch the stats, most SAROps in the UKFIR are overland
Therefore a strong base of RAF overland capability with a soupcon of RN over-water experience (which the crabs do at least as well because we train more) has got to be the template for future UKSAR
Strangely, given your strong opinion of the RN SAR, the majority shareholder in UK SAR is the RAF, followed by the MCA and then, in last position.......And don't start mentioning Prestwick as the busiest SAR flt as a defence - you know as well as I do that their stats are based on medevacs every night during the winter months which, whilst being exciting due to poor weather are not really SAR jobs, more Air Ambulance tasks.
PS you mean scraping the bottom of the barrel not scrapping surely, and you went down through that earlier
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 231
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Crabs V Wafu's
Well.... if its a CIVVIE future with endless crew room banter and getting on with the ex MOD oppo, then I'm afraid the CV list is as follows:
Ex RN whatever their non crab inferior skills.
Civvie willing to listen, learn and have demonstrated a life long career drive to aviate (not been handed a golden RAF bus pass @18)
Low time South Africans, Polish, Bulgarian and other EU migrant bus drivers.
Crab SH pilots
Army Pilots
RAF SAR pilots
CRAB@
Actually Crab I might move you up above the Army if Wales Jnr applies, after seeing the vid he would win the willy waving contest and the Wafu's don't like to be out done you know.
Ex RN whatever their non crab inferior skills. Civvie willing to listen, learn and have demonstrated a life long career drive to aviate (not been handed a golden RAF bus pass @18) Low time South Africans, Polish, Bulgarian and other EU migrant bus drivers.Crab SH pilotsArmy PilotsRAF SAR pilotsCRAB@Actually Crab I might move you up above the Army if Wales Jnr applies, after seeing the vid he would win the willy waving contest and the Wafu's don't like to be out done you know.
NRDK - you appear to have your roots showing
If you rate bravado over professionalism then good luck to your future SAR setup.
Surprisingly, many crabs are good fun in the bar and the crewroom (even I have been described as a good egg on this thread!!!)
So in the end it is up to those in power to decide the future of UKSAR - an old RN boys club or something which melds mil and civ in a forward looking outfit with high standards who will provide the service the UK has come to love and expect.
If you rate bravado over professionalism then good luck to your future SAR setup.
Surprisingly, many crabs are good fun in the bar and the crewroom (even I have been described as a good egg on this thread!!!)
So in the end it is up to those in power to decide the future of UKSAR - an old RN boys club or something which melds mil and civ in a forward looking outfit with high standards who will provide the service the UK has come to love and expect.
The future of UK SAR. I can see it now. Down the Legion, the crabs are in one corner and pusser's pirates in the other, sniping at each other endlessly, hoping there'll be some reservists in shortly who still have proper jobs and can buy a round. Meanwhile, overhead, there is the throb of an S-92 as its Polish, Irish or Swiss pilot heads it for the hill on another rescue.
Hats off to them in the big mountains but have you got any footage of them doing it at night or in poor weather?
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Under a grey cloud
Posts: 75
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No footage at night that i've seen, but the documentary "Die Bergretter - Unterwegs mit der Air Zermatt" is well worth a watch, although foreign. I saw it a few years ago but don't have any links - I guess for a private operator the chances of having camera team in place are slim, and of little importance when dealing with something like this.
Air Glaciers, Air Zermatt et al response to coach crash
Air Zermatt were supposedly the first to do night rescues in the mountains many years ago (certainly in the region) in Alouettes and Lamas - no autopilot/autohover/winch-man-steering/nvg. Amazing. They've just taken delivery of their first bell 429, apparently to enhance their night ops.
Air Glaciers, Air Zermatt et al response to coach crash
Air Zermatt were supposedly the first to do night rescues in the mountains many years ago (certainly in the region) in Alouettes and Lamas - no autopilot/autohover/winch-man-steering/nvg. Amazing. They've just taken delivery of their first bell 429, apparently to enhance their night ops.
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: England
Posts: 62
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
By and large in most sane operations the ex service stuff is just a bit of banter for crewroom use only.
You do get the odd one (odd in more than one sense of the word) who still thinks he's in uniform. Most are more than happy to move on.
I only came across one operation where there was genuine nasty side to the ex service relationship.
I happened to walk into the the office behind the chief engineer and his deputy both ex crabs and was quite horrified to hear what was going on.
They were sorting out c.v's for a vacancy and the conversation went
ex army no, ex navy no e.t.c.
There was genuine animosity towards ex navy/army, which extended to training not being provided and a very nasty atmosphere.
You weren't in their little clique and they let you know it.
Thankfully a one off for me.
I find the ex service mix is all part of fun with each group including the civvies bringing their own expertise and quirky humour to the job.
You do get the odd one (odd in more than one sense of the word) who still thinks he's in uniform. Most are more than happy to move on.
I only came across one operation where there was genuine nasty side to the ex service relationship.
I happened to walk into the the office behind the chief engineer and his deputy both ex crabs and was quite horrified to hear what was going on.
They were sorting out c.v's for a vacancy and the conversation went
ex army no, ex navy no e.t.c.
There was genuine animosity towards ex navy/army, which extended to training not being provided and a very nasty atmosphere.
You weren't in their little clique and they let you know it.
Thankfully a one off for me.
I find the ex service mix is all part of fun with each group including the civvies bringing their own expertise and quirky humour to the job.
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: 1 Dunghill Mansions, Putney
Posts: 1,797
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Originally Posted by Shell Management
The Americans still use baskets!!!
Firefighter extracted in helicopter’s bucket as wildfire approached
I/C
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 231
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CRAB Baiting
Thought you had a sense of humour
But,that said.. most qualified service/civ pilots with ATPL level qualifications would be able to get on with the job. Are they going to be a 'good egg' in the SAR world (crewroom & cockpit) is actually Very important.
But,that said.. most qualified service/civ pilots with ATPL level qualifications would be able to get on with the job. Are they going to be a 'good egg' in the SAR world (crewroom & cockpit) is actually Very important.
Hats off to them in the big mountains but have you got any footage of them doing it at night or in poor weather?
Last edited by jimf671; 19th Oct 2012 at 12:58.
Around 300 nm I believe.