1st cross country flight, hit turbulance and ??
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"2000ft isn't a mountain"
For the purposes of what? Some irrelevant geographical definition, or comitting aviation in its vicinity?
Sounds like someone's not done much flying around high terrain then.
Jeez! You get them all here, don't you?
For the purposes of what? Some irrelevant geographical definition, or comitting aviation in its vicinity?
Sounds like someone's not done much flying around high terrain then.
Jeez! You get them all here, don't you?
2000ft isn't a mountain
If this isn't a wind up, then it's clear to me that you were neither adequately prepared nor experienced to fly this route. The fact that even now you're confused about agl vs. amsl, MAP and CAT (and MCP) limits, and even how carb heat works, indicates you should not have been there and need some professional advice. What's the wind limit in a R22 for a solo P1 with < 300 hours? I assume you had only 25 ish hours P1 at the time? Why ask all this on here, when your instructor should be able to provide you with all the information you need?!
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Hey, everybody, give the guy a break. All the criticism is wrong-headed and seems mean to me.
Big Duke 6
1) You were flying and hit some turbulence. Not a big deal, but to a newbie's eyes, worth asking questions. Good on you for asking, bad on us for lambasting you. Good on you for flying nicely through it and telling us.
2) There are mountains and there are mountains. 2,000 ft hills on a solo cross country - big deal. 20 knots of wind, also big deal. All those others who think this is instructor malfeasance, fire your instructor, he doesn't/didn't trust you. Big Duke 6, do not apologize, it isn't necessary! Experience gives you judgment, which you get by experiencing things after showing less judgment.
3) The roughness you felt was clearly just a bit of stall, next time don't use high speed to escape. You had some increased load factor in the turbulence, maybe even a bit of increased airspeed in the bumps, and high collective/MP, all this pushes the rotor a bit closer to stall, and N per revolution vibration is the first clue. No problem, but a signal to knock off a few knots, probably 10, because slower is kinder to the rotor.
4) I defer to others as to carb heat, but too much is not good, esp at altitude.
5) Please continue to post on pprune, we want you and your thoughts. I guess you'll have to somehow mentally weed out the critical folks, who stand on the street corner saying bad things about everybody and give this neighborhood a bad name. I can't tell you how many PMs I get from folks who are afraid to post on pprune because of all the folks who sit in perfect judgment. Example: those who think you need a mountain course to fly over 2,000 ft terrain features shouldn't get out from under their beds after dark, it's too scary out there for them.
Big Duke 6
1) You were flying and hit some turbulence. Not a big deal, but to a newbie's eyes, worth asking questions. Good on you for asking, bad on us for lambasting you. Good on you for flying nicely through it and telling us.
2) There are mountains and there are mountains. 2,000 ft hills on a solo cross country - big deal. 20 knots of wind, also big deal. All those others who think this is instructor malfeasance, fire your instructor, he doesn't/didn't trust you. Big Duke 6, do not apologize, it isn't necessary! Experience gives you judgment, which you get by experiencing things after showing less judgment.
3) The roughness you felt was clearly just a bit of stall, next time don't use high speed to escape. You had some increased load factor in the turbulence, maybe even a bit of increased airspeed in the bumps, and high collective/MP, all this pushes the rotor a bit closer to stall, and N per revolution vibration is the first clue. No problem, but a signal to knock off a few knots, probably 10, because slower is kinder to the rotor.
4) I defer to others as to carb heat, but too much is not good, esp at altitude.
5) Please continue to post on pprune, we want you and your thoughts. I guess you'll have to somehow mentally weed out the critical folks, who stand on the street corner saying bad things about everybody and give this neighborhood a bad name. I can't tell you how many PMs I get from folks who are afraid to post on pprune because of all the folks who sit in perfect judgment. Example: those who think you need a mountain course to fly over 2,000 ft terrain features shouldn't get out from under their beds after dark, it's too scary out there for them.
Nick - there's nothing wrong with constructive criticism and I can't see anyone posting anything that isn't constructive; he's certainly not been lambasted! Gusty 20kts over mountains (sic) as a very low time R22 jockey can be (and obviously was) scary and could have panicked him into a REALLY scary situation unnecessarily. It could have been a lot less scary with a bit prep. The main points are
- Big Duke 6 is not a muppet, so he will no doubt listen and learn from these posts
- he should however, have been better prepared for this flight
- he should have been given all the right answers in a post-flight debrief by his instructor
- his instructor needs shooting (see point 2)
- he shouldn't take anything on here personally (nothing is, or the mods take it off pdq)
"Just a pilot"
Big Duke 6-
It's been decades since I flew anything with carb heat or manifold pressure. And, I don't know what a 'wind factor' is...
However, I do fly in comparable terrain, frequently, whether that's mountainous or not. I can relate to your story.
Thoughts-
Helicopters shake/vibrate more with increased speed, have your instructor demonstrate this and you'll be more comfortable.
Turbulence is usually temporary. Do the usual stuff to hold altitude in whatever you're flying when you hit the bumps. In a few seconds, you'll probably be in some air going the other direction to what you're fighting now. Don't take any hazard lightly in the meantime.
Your initial impulse to slow down was correct, but don't be excessive, too slow has it's own hazards. If terrain is a concern, you don't want to be slower than best climb.
You don't mention altering course. I'm a big believer in going around trouble, I'll divert/turn away from anything that implies it will exciting or hard work.
I do wonder why you're not talking with your instructor about this? That should be your best source of local knowledge, you, the aircraft, and weather.
It's been decades since I flew anything with carb heat or manifold pressure. And, I don't know what a 'wind factor' is...
However, I do fly in comparable terrain, frequently, whether that's mountainous or not. I can relate to your story.
Thoughts-
Helicopters shake/vibrate more with increased speed, have your instructor demonstrate this and you'll be more comfortable.
Turbulence is usually temporary. Do the usual stuff to hold altitude in whatever you're flying when you hit the bumps. In a few seconds, you'll probably be in some air going the other direction to what you're fighting now. Don't take any hazard lightly in the meantime.
Your initial impulse to slow down was correct, but don't be excessive, too slow has it's own hazards. If terrain is a concern, you don't want to be slower than best climb.
You don't mention altering course. I'm a big believer in going around trouble, I'll divert/turn away from anything that implies it will exciting or hard work.
I do wonder why you're not talking with your instructor about this? That should be your best source of local knowledge, you, the aircraft, and weather.
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toptobottom, maybe it's me, but when I read what is posted below by two or three folks, I get an awful lot of holier than thou vibe in the intonation. I don't think it is "constructive criticism" to blame him for sightseeing, blame the flight school for allowing him to fly that route on that day, etc. Frankly, it is quite unprofessional for those two or three to read his several sentences and then extrapolate to the point where his instructor and school are declared in the court of pprune to be guilty. Frankly, your decision as to what he and his instructor "should" do is exactly what I am talking about.
If pprune is that kind of "what you should do..." neighborhood, it is a crappy neighborhood, and newbies will shy away.
Frankly, the poor guy was cowed into apologizing for that normal flight - what a kangaroo court.
Big Duke 6, you didn't do a thing wrong, for pete's sake, nor did your instructor. Please don't take anonymous drivel as sound advice. Those who criticized you are off base, and frankly, talking through their hats. Thanks for discussing what you saw, keep posting.
And thanks to the many ppruners who piped in to support Big Duke 6, and offered advice without blame, thanks. That's what we "should" be doing.
If pprune is that kind of "what you should do..." neighborhood, it is a crappy neighborhood, and newbies will shy away.
Frankly, the poor guy was cowed into apologizing for that normal flight - what a kangaroo court.
Big Duke 6, you didn't do a thing wrong, for pete's sake, nor did your instructor. Please don't take anonymous drivel as sound advice. Those who criticized you are off base, and frankly, talking through their hats. Thanks for discussing what you saw, keep posting.
And thanks to the many ppruners who piped in to support Big Duke 6, and offered advice without blame, thanks. That's what we "should" be doing.
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Big Duke, you may find the following accident of interest. Pilot was the lead singer of the band "Skyhooks", Graeme "Shirley" Strachan.
You are right to post of your experience, as Nick proffered. There is no such things as a stupid question, but you will find some stupid answers from some of the Pprune brethren. I hope you can discern which is which, and do come back, there is a great resource of talent to be tapped here.
Investigation: 200104092 - Agusta, SPA, Costruzioni Aeronautiche 47-G-2A1, VH-SHP
BTW, there is no universally accepted definition of a mountain, the highest point in San Francisco is called Mount Davidson and yet it's only 980 ft.
All the very best in your continued flying adventure.
You are right to post of your experience, as Nick proffered. There is no such things as a stupid question, but you will find some stupid answers from some of the Pprune brethren. I hope you can discern which is which, and do come back, there is a great resource of talent to be tapped here.
Investigation: 200104092 - Agusta, SPA, Costruzioni Aeronautiche 47-G-2A1, VH-SHP
BTW, there is no universally accepted definition of a mountain, the highest point in San Francisco is called Mount Davidson and yet it's only 980 ft.
All the very best in your continued flying adventure.
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NickLappos
Well said.
toptobottom
Because he wanted to.
Because, as Brian Abraham says, "there is a great resource of talent to be tapped here."
One of the many good things about this forum is a long tradition that beginners' questions are usually answered courteously and helpfully.
It would be a sad day if that ever changed.
Big Duke 6
Welcome to the forum. Feel free to ask questions whenever you wish.
BTW, as a beginner you may not know that Nick Lappos is one of the most respected helicopter pilots in the world. Probably the most respected.
Heliport
Well said.
toptobottom
he's certainly not been lambasted!
Why ask all this on here, when your instructor should be able to provide you with all the information you need?!
Because, as Brian Abraham says, "there is a great resource of talent to be tapped here."
One of the many good things about this forum is a long tradition that beginners' questions are usually answered courteously and helpfully.
It would be a sad day if that ever changed.
Big Duke 6
Welcome to the forum. Feel free to ask questions whenever you wish.
BTW, as a beginner you may not know that Nick Lappos is one of the most respected helicopter pilots in the world. Probably the most respected.
Heliport
Nick
Agree with almost all you say, but I'm sticking to my guns on blame. Big Duke did nothing wrong; agreed. The instructor however, should NEVER have approved that flight. It's completely unacceptable that a student was allowed to get into a situation that he hasn't been properly prepared for. The responsibility lies squarely with the instructor who should have been aware of the conditions and at least, given him some advice.
Agree with almost all you say, but I'm sticking to my guns on blame. Big Duke did nothing wrong; agreed. The instructor however, should NEVER have approved that flight. It's completely unacceptable that a student was allowed to get into a situation that he hasn't been properly prepared for. The responsibility lies squarely with the instructor who should have been aware of the conditions and at least, given him some advice.
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First of all i would very much like to thank you for your replies.
Like anything else the learning process is about being open to constructive criticism among other things.
To be honest i was scared during one part of the flight during which i was not sure what was happening.
My attitude is that if it scare's you and you cant get over it, well this career ain't for you.
Alas i have no problem, but i have learnt a few things and will always want to learn more.
I have my goal set so nothing will stop me getting there, where people criticise that's ok once its not vindictive.
I did chat with my instructor regarding my flight but i also find it good to get other views on this.
ROTORWASHED- I have flow with two other schools before choosing my current one, of which there are two very experienced instructors with whom i have flow.
They are well respected in the industry. I have no complaints.
ASCEND CHARLIE- YEA it was 3000' amsl.
Benjamin James- You can't really fly for too long without passing over a 2000' hill where i fly.
[email protected] This route is normal for cross country flying . I did fly it first with my instructor, it was just a different experience on my own. Once you know what your getting into that's how i will learn, i agree.
Brilliant Stuff- I agree i am back out this Sunday, no worries though. Cant wait.
Toptobottom- I am using this site as a sounding board as there are a lot of experienced folks here and want different views. I am learning via this site as well. I will be chatting again with my instructor about my flight and its good to get other peoples view too.
NickLappos- Thanks, and i don't take it personally. In fact ill take on board what everyone has to say and learn from it. That's why I'm on here,thing is we have all been in flying situations I'm sure that where "interesting", and if we don't learn from them whats the point.
Devil 49- Will be back sunday to thoroughly chat again re flight, Cheers.
Brian Abraham- Cheers.
BD6.
Like anything else the learning process is about being open to constructive criticism among other things.
To be honest i was scared during one part of the flight during which i was not sure what was happening.
My attitude is that if it scare's you and you cant get over it, well this career ain't for you.
Alas i have no problem, but i have learnt a few things and will always want to learn more.
I have my goal set so nothing will stop me getting there, where people criticise that's ok once its not vindictive.
I did chat with my instructor regarding my flight but i also find it good to get other views on this.
ROTORWASHED- I have flow with two other schools before choosing my current one, of which there are two very experienced instructors with whom i have flow.
They are well respected in the industry. I have no complaints.
ASCEND CHARLIE- YEA it was 3000' amsl.
Benjamin James- You can't really fly for too long without passing over a 2000' hill where i fly.
[email protected] This route is normal for cross country flying . I did fly it first with my instructor, it was just a different experience on my own. Once you know what your getting into that's how i will learn, i agree.
Brilliant Stuff- I agree i am back out this Sunday, no worries though. Cant wait.
Toptobottom- I am using this site as a sounding board as there are a lot of experienced folks here and want different views. I am learning via this site as well. I will be chatting again with my instructor about my flight and its good to get other peoples view too.
NickLappos- Thanks, and i don't take it personally. In fact ill take on board what everyone has to say and learn from it. That's why I'm on here,thing is we have all been in flying situations I'm sure that where "interesting", and if we don't learn from them whats the point.
Devil 49- Will be back sunday to thoroughly chat again re flight, Cheers.
Brian Abraham- Cheers.
BD6.
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Experience gives you judgment, which you get by experiencing things after showing less judgment.
"Just a pilot"
I can't let this go:
"To be honest i was scared during one part of the flight during which i was not sure what was happening.
My attitude is that if it scare's you and you cant get over it, well this career ain't for you."
There's nothing wrong with fear or being afraid. Reasonable fear of an existing hazard is an intelligent reaction, and useful. Not being smart enough to appreciate the risks of a novel experience is a well grounded disqualification for a career in this job. One needs to have a real and appreciable respect for the definite possibility of a fatal error, I hope- because I'm not infrequently afraid on the job, and I started doing this in 1968.
Personally, I use the level of anxiety as the final, rock solid evaluation of whether I'm going to do something or continue doing it. If it becomes too 'sporty', I quit, if I can, period, end of story. Maybe I'll develop the skills to do "that thing" someday, and maybe I won't. But I'd rather be wrong on the ground and alive... Lesser levels of anxiety motivate me to evaluate my abort plans and the parameters to stop.
There's no better time for rational fear than when things are happening that you don't understand and you're not certain of how best to resolve the issue, as in your original post of this thread.
"To be honest i was scared during one part of the flight during which i was not sure what was happening.
My attitude is that if it scare's you and you cant get over it, well this career ain't for you."
There's nothing wrong with fear or being afraid. Reasonable fear of an existing hazard is an intelligent reaction, and useful. Not being smart enough to appreciate the risks of a novel experience is a well grounded disqualification for a career in this job. One needs to have a real and appreciable respect for the definite possibility of a fatal error, I hope- because I'm not infrequently afraid on the job, and I started doing this in 1968.
Personally, I use the level of anxiety as the final, rock solid evaluation of whether I'm going to do something or continue doing it. If it becomes too 'sporty', I quit, if I can, period, end of story. Maybe I'll develop the skills to do "that thing" someday, and maybe I won't. But I'd rather be wrong on the ground and alive... Lesser levels of anxiety motivate me to evaluate my abort plans and the parameters to stop.
There's no better time for rational fear than when things are happening that you don't understand and you're not certain of how best to resolve the issue, as in your original post of this thread.
Last edited by Devil 49; 16th Feb 2011 at 17:00. Reason: clarification
