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Bell 430 vs A109S

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Bell 430 vs A109S

Old 18th Jan 2011, 12:11
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Bell 430 vs A109S

I have read through the http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/19740-bell-430-a.html thread and two comments in particular stood out:

Shawn Coyle-

I assume you would want to operate in Category A. One of the UK requirements is that you train and demonstrate Category A with your pilots.

Unless things have changed drastically, there is no way to do this in the real aircraft. The engines have 30" and 2 min One Engine Inoperative Ratings, and the certification rules require that these ratings only be used in a real emergency. Training does not constitute an emergency. Nearly every other helicopter with these ratings incorporates a training mode switch to make the FADEC simulate the engine failure condition. Not the Bell 430.

If you simulate engine failures by retarding a throttle you are doing two things - a) violating the flight manual limitations, and b) putting the engine into an area that will potentially cost you thousands of dollars per second of operation - the engines have very short life in the 30" rating (total of 2 to 4 minutes) before they have to be removed for overhaul.

And I don't believe the CAA has accepted the only Bell 430 simulator (in Fort Worth) for Category A training - could be wrong on this. So, you could buy the 430 but not be able to operate it in the UK.
Rotorrookie -

In the last few years, Bell Helicopter has received reports of main transmission generating metal particles. Subsequent transmission teardown revealed significant mechanical damage to the sungear and planetary pinion gears.

Several parts were received at Bell for evaluation but none of these parts revealed physical or material inconsistencies. Further investigation revealed that although the aircraft may be operating within the limits listed in the current flight manual, damage to the transmission planetary pinion gears and mating gears may occur due to excessive mast bending which causes planetary system misalignment.

This bulletin introduces a revision to the Flight Manual which includes a revised VNE airspeed limits decal. In addition, the manual also includes a revised restricted center of gravity envelope along with a secondary VNE airspeed limits decal. Airspeed limits listed on the secondary decal will apply for the duration of a flight whenever the aircraft is loaded with a C of G within the crosshatched area of the new restricted center of
gravity envelope.
Aside from these observations (of which further clarification would be appreciated) I am interested in receiving any thoughts/opinions about the comparison between a used 109S and a used 430.

Ops would be in Malaysia with OAT in the region of +25 degrees at an elevation of approx. 4,000ft amsl. It would be for PT and while the Malaysian civil aviation regulations may differ from the UK CAA I would still like to understand this issue about CAT A training and what, in practice, are the restrictions. Why can't this be performed on a SIM?

Any operational, cost and maintenance observations would also be appreciated.

The client is at present considering the 430 because of a) increased cabin space and b) he has been told (which I have affirmed) that Bell product support is more efficient than for Agusta.

Arigato.

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Old 19th Jan 2011, 00:54
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There is only one sim for the Bell 430 - at Flight Safety in Fort Worth. You would want to make sure that it faithfully duplicates the performance in the flight manual.
The way to check if the sim is representative is to take the flight manual and find some realistic scenario in terms of weight, pressure altitude and OAT where it shows the helicopter can just make the profile shown. Then try that in the sim - if the sim shows no performance problem (i.e. lots of power margin or lots of climb at the limiting conditions) then you can form your own opinions as to the relevance of the sim. Try it for roof top heliports, or ground level helipads, not just runways.
Since Bell has stopped production of the 430, I doubt there is any interest in putting a training mode switch into the machine to let you do real OEI / CAT A training.
What about the new Agusta machine that's halfway between the A109 and the AW139???
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Old 19th Jan 2011, 01:33
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Lemme see... I've got this... 139 minus 109 divided by two plus the original 109... yields an AW124. What do I win?
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Old 19th Jan 2011, 01:51
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I would consider something else than Bell 430 if it has to be Cat A and like Shawn said Bell have already stopped the production and the 430 will become a dinosaur before this decade is out, just like 222's and 230's now, great machines in many ways but also kind of old school, and Bell is not going to spend a lot more budget into further testing or problem solving on these types.

About Augusta I have heard lot positive comments about AW support lately, they are really doing their homework, just look at the AW169 its gonna be just as successful as the 139 and will probably flying sooner than we think.
About the cabin space you mentioned: if it's going to be in VIP Executive configure 4-5 pax then the you are only wasting the lager Bell cabin into empty floor space compaired to A-109, they have very similar baggage, 109 is faster, and 430 sips down 600lbs of fuel per hr, A-109 about 350lbs
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Old 19th Jan 2011, 02:35
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As long as Bell has all that military hardware round their necks making them a fortune, they will never move on in the civvy design market.
They are stuck in a time warp.....

The 430 was cool looking and semi glass cockpit, but it was total pants for power and the auto pilot complete shite...

Move on I say......
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Old 19th Jan 2011, 11:53
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Do you say we are better then to look at a used 109S?

Please also confim that depreciation on the Grand will be less seeing as the 430 is no longer going to be produced (I know purchase price must be taken into account to understand overall depreciation but if we obtain a fair price on the S model such as USD 4.5m)?

Yes Shawn Coyle's recommendation of the AW169 would have been the ideal choice but we cannot wait for that long as this operation must begin by May.

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Old 20th Jan 2011, 22:17
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normally AW helos are very customized..aw169 will be very sophisticated and for sure significantly above that price I guess
Do you need it only for pax transport? a basic 109 would be great..I'll check the prices
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Old 21st Jan 2011, 19:42
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Yencopter,

There is no problem with doing the CAt A training on a sim, as long as the sim is approved by the relevant authority governing the operation. So, if you operate under JAA, FAA or other national rules, you need to get them to sign off on the particular simulator you are going to use for training, otherwise it won't count!
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Old 22nd Jan 2011, 21:08
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Non-PC Plod:
Aside from the approval by the authority, it would be nice to know that the sim actually duplicates Cat A performance acurately, and that the sim instructors know what Cat A performance is all about.
I'm just sayin'...
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Old 23rd Jan 2011, 18:33
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B430 vs A109s

I fly both and at altitude above 5000 feet at plus 28 deg C. The best helicopter for ride comfort is the 430 and it can do full pax, full fuel where the 109 canít do. Under IF the 109 is scary and aggressive . Reliable and cost effective !!!!! Bell !
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Old 23rd Jan 2011, 19:01
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I agree with B429

I fly both also and I would have the B430 any day over the 109S. The 430 is stable, so much more room, and that ride is the smoothest in the business.

Oh and you could probably buy 2 430's and have one parked in the shed for the price of 1 A109S these days !!
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Old 24th Jan 2011, 14:05
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UK 430

Yencopter
I know the intimate details of the UK 2000hr, 1996 ship. Send me a pm and I can qualify (briefly) what it is, how utilised and current state
~ VFR
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Old 24th Jan 2011, 17:21
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B430& A109s

Dont panic about " The 430 will become a dinosaur before this decade is out" Think about the old 212, 412 They still out there and at a cost.
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Old 25th Jan 2011, 01:48
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136 units of Bell 430 were completed, 38 Bell 230's and 199 Bell 222's.

over 700 412's are flying and far more 212's

If you are only looking to run the 430 for few years in this operation and it does the job you need it to then I would not hestitate, like I said in my previous reply it's a great machine.

getting spares for 230's and 222's is not easy now and they cost an arm and a leg when you find em.
I guess it will be the same story with the 430 within 10 years, it just how it is when there are so few units manufactured
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Old 26th Jan 2011, 07:47
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rotorrookie, what 109 are you flying that only uses 350lb/hr (159kg/hr)
Ours (A109E) goes through at least 220kg/hr.
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Old 26th Jan 2011, 09:07
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220 kgs/hr or 230 with ECS on are good figures to plan on for the A109S too.
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Old 28th Jan 2011, 19:53
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rotorrookie, what 109 are you flying that only uses 350lb/hr (159kg/hr)
Ours (A109E) goes through at least 220kg/hr.
25th Jan 2011 02:48
oops! I must have mixed it up with my Peugeot 109 figures
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Old 28th Jan 2011, 20:14
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rotorrookie, what 109 are you flying that only uses 350lb/hr (159kg/hr)
Ours (A109E) goes through at least 220kg/hr.
25th Jan 2011 02:48
oops! I must have mixed it up with my Peugeot 109 figures
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Old 4th Mar 2013, 08:15
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Smile A109 Grand or Bell 430


Just a quick one.

What would you recommend for high altitude vip operations.

A109 Grand or Bell430

Regards
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Old 4th Mar 2013, 08:34
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A109 or B430

Hi there.Not too sure about the 430 but I believe that many,if not all,A109 pilots in JHB love using the 109 for hot and high op's...
Then again,its a matter of opinion and other atmospheric conditions.
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