Humberside Issues, from Bad to Worse!
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Bristows didn't win the contract. As I understand it BP UK were directed by Euston to award Bristows with the contract in exchange for more favourable terms in the gulf of mexico. Bristows were and are still unprepared.
They have no intention of making their own aircrew redundant but are using the threat as a way of directing aircrew to Humberside. If aircrew volunteer to go (under threat of redundancy) rather than be directed, NO RELOCATION PAYMENTS.
Bristows have in fact accepted that TUPE applies and to that end all CHC aircrew & engineers should move across with their existing terms & conditions. This includes seniority, so any redundancies, post transfer, would begin with the most junior Bristows aircrew regardless of their roots.
Bristows didn't win the contract. As I understand it BP UK were directed by Euston to award Bristows with the contract in exchange for more favourable terms in the gulf of mexico. Bristows were and are still unprepared.
They have no intention of making their own aircrew redundant but are using the threat as a way of directing aircrew to Humberside. If aircrew volunteer to go (under threat of redundancy) rather than be directed, NO RELOCATION PAYMENTS.
Bristows have in fact accepted that TUPE applies and to that end all CHC aircrew & engineers should move across with their existing terms & conditions. This includes seniority, so any redundancies, post transfer, would begin with the most junior Bristows aircrew regardless of their roots.
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Hmmmm....
Mr. Macaco Norte sir,
Sorry to rain on your tirade but Bristow didn't fly commercially in any major way for Bp in the Gulf until the Deepwater Horizon relief effort.
It's also a fairly normal business practice for a Head Office to have input into a contract award I would suggest.
Sorry to rain on your tirade but Bristow didn't fly commercially in any major way for Bp in the Gulf until the Deepwater Horizon relief effort.
It's also a fairly normal business practice for a Head Office to have input into a contract award I would suggest.
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Scots
I think Mac N was only correcting the previous post & he didn't comment as to when Bristows started working in the gulf of mexico, only that the decision to award the SNS to Bristows was done to sweeten deals elsewhere, not only in the Gulf of Mexico but in Libya aswell. On this one he is correct, as you probably well know.
I think Mac N was only correcting the previous post & he didn't comment as to when Bristows started working in the gulf of mexico, only that the decision to award the SNS to Bristows was done to sweeten deals elsewhere, not only in the Gulf of Mexico but in Libya aswell. On this one he is correct, as you probably well know.
Ahh....TUPE
Transfer of Undertakings Protection of Employment, an oft emotional and misunderstood subject.
Firstly - does it apply in this case - most likely yes
As such the two sets of employers would, under law, be required to follow certain protocols relating to notification to each other and affected employees as to:
Numbers of and names of individual employees affected
Contract Terms and Conditions of affected employees
When a transfer takes place the terms and conditions of affected employees are also transferred, but NOT pension rights
Union Recognition and Collective Bargain rights are only transferred if the affected employees and the contract that they perform retain a seperate identity, for example a Management Company taking over a waste contract when it has no other similar contracts.
In this case transferred employees will almost certainly not retain a seperate indentity, so any previously aquired rights will not apply.
The new employer can not terminate the employment of a transferred employee soley on the basis of the transfer, that would be deemed as unfair dismissal. It can however dismiss employees, as long as the process is followed correctly, on the basis of an Economic, Technical or Organisational (ETO) reason.
Economic- example: to many staff and resultant overhead
Technical- example: transferred employees do not have relevant technical skills
Organisational -example: restructure of management or company location
As an example in the aviation world;
Win contract with: different crewing levels, different aircraft, different base - then ETO may apply.
Sound familiar in this case?
To follow ETO reasoning, and there is nothing laid down as each case will be assessed on its merits if it goes to any form of legal redress, most companies will follow the redundancy model as it offers the most robust likelyhood of a favourable outcome at court.
Remember that redundancy costs are bourne by the new employer, not the old, under TUPE.
Any redundancy only has to be statutory as a minimum.
In simple terms statutory redundancy pay is
0.5 weeks pay for each full year of service where your age was under 22
1 weeks pay for each full year of service where your age was 22 or above, but under 41
1.5 weeks pay for each full year of service where your age was 41 or above
So, despite previous posts in this forum, will not lead to pilots "rubbing their hands together" re "huge" payouts.
I'm no expert, there are plently of online and other references to help you understand TUPE. My advice, for what it is worth, is get collective or individual advice as employess affected by the Transfer. BALPA can assist individually, but not collectively - for the reasons described above, in discussions with the new employer.
Talk to your new employer before the transfer, TUPE allows for this and requires your current employer to allow it also.
Don't get to emotional and don't get angry about it - some of the regulations seem illogical at times but the are just that - regulations and there is no point shouting and screaming about them, unless its down the pub with other crews.
However, all regulations are open to interpretation and that is why it is so important to get good quality advice.
Finally, remember that if all goes well you will transfer to your new employer with your contract T and C's protected under the transfer, you are going to be working with new CP's, Flight Ops Directors etc as your new bosses and regardless of the LAW, they will not want to be inheriting a pain in the xxxx
Keep it real
PS I'm not a lawyer and accept no responsibility for any of the above!!!
Transfer of Undertakings Protection of Employment, an oft emotional and misunderstood subject.
Firstly - does it apply in this case - most likely yes
As such the two sets of employers would, under law, be required to follow certain protocols relating to notification to each other and affected employees as to:
Numbers of and names of individual employees affected
Contract Terms and Conditions of affected employees
When a transfer takes place the terms and conditions of affected employees are also transferred, but NOT pension rights
Union Recognition and Collective Bargain rights are only transferred if the affected employees and the contract that they perform retain a seperate identity, for example a Management Company taking over a waste contract when it has no other similar contracts.
In this case transferred employees will almost certainly not retain a seperate indentity, so any previously aquired rights will not apply.
The new employer can not terminate the employment of a transferred employee soley on the basis of the transfer, that would be deemed as unfair dismissal. It can however dismiss employees, as long as the process is followed correctly, on the basis of an Economic, Technical or Organisational (ETO) reason.
Economic- example: to many staff and resultant overhead
Technical- example: transferred employees do not have relevant technical skills
Organisational -example: restructure of management or company location
As an example in the aviation world;
Win contract with: different crewing levels, different aircraft, different base - then ETO may apply.
Sound familiar in this case?
To follow ETO reasoning, and there is nothing laid down as each case will be assessed on its merits if it goes to any form of legal redress, most companies will follow the redundancy model as it offers the most robust likelyhood of a favourable outcome at court.
Remember that redundancy costs are bourne by the new employer, not the old, under TUPE.
Any redundancy only has to be statutory as a minimum.
In simple terms statutory redundancy pay is
0.5 weeks pay for each full year of service where your age was under 22
1 weeks pay for each full year of service where your age was 22 or above, but under 41
1.5 weeks pay for each full year of service where your age was 41 or above
So, despite previous posts in this forum, will not lead to pilots "rubbing their hands together" re "huge" payouts.
I'm no expert, there are plently of online and other references to help you understand TUPE. My advice, for what it is worth, is get collective or individual advice as employess affected by the Transfer. BALPA can assist individually, but not collectively - for the reasons described above, in discussions with the new employer.
Talk to your new employer before the transfer, TUPE allows for this and requires your current employer to allow it also.
Don't get to emotional and don't get angry about it - some of the regulations seem illogical at times but the are just that - regulations and there is no point shouting and screaming about them, unless its down the pub with other crews.
However, all regulations are open to interpretation and that is why it is so important to get good quality advice.
Finally, remember that if all goes well you will transfer to your new employer with your contract T and C's protected under the transfer, you are going to be working with new CP's, Flight Ops Directors etc as your new bosses and regardless of the LAW, they will not want to be inheriting a pain in the xxxx
Keep it real
PS I'm not a lawyer and accept no responsibility for any of the above!!!
In simple terms statutory redundancy pay is
0.5 weeks pay for each full year of service where your age was under 22
1 weeks pay for each full year of service where your age was 22 or above, but under 41
1.5 weeks pay for each full year of service where your age was 41 or above
0.5 weeks pay for each full year of service where your age was under 22
1 weeks pay for each full year of service where your age was 22 or above, but under 41
1.5 weeks pay for each full year of service where your age was 41 or above
Sorry for the, quite major re financial implications, omission
It is now a massive £380 pw - maximum
£350 if made redundant before Sep 2009
So a 10 year pilot under 41 gets £3800, plus you should get your notice pay as well.
This will be the notice period based on your old employer, not your new one. So if CHC is one month and Bristows 3 months.....
It is now a massive £380 pw - maximum
£350 if made redundant before Sep 2009
So a 10 year pilot under 41 gets £3800, plus you should get your notice pay as well.
This will be the notice period based on your old employer, not your new one. So if CHC is one month and Bristows 3 months.....
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It would appear that Bristow will not be offering any sort of enhanced redundancy package, only the statutory redundancy. The pilots have still not been informed who will be kept on or made redundant, with just 10 days to go, and they've been told they will most likely have to move permanently to Norwich to be considered for a position.
Due to the fact bp require double the OGM hours requirements for hours on type, those Captains hired will require 200hrs on the new variant before flying the line for bp. Co-pilots will require 100hrs on type. So, initial line flying training etc will be done out of NWI, which begs the question, do Shell et al, know that their flights are probably going to be used as training flights for bp?
I just hope the guys at Humberside are staying positive because this must be stressful beyond belief.
Good luck.
Due to the fact bp require double the OGM hours requirements for hours on type, those Captains hired will require 200hrs on the new variant before flying the line for bp. Co-pilots will require 100hrs on type. So, initial line flying training etc will be done out of NWI, which begs the question, do Shell et al, know that their flights are probably going to be used as training flights for bp?
I just hope the guys at Humberside are staying positive because this must be stressful beyond belief.
Good luck.
WSP
Maybe it is but what has been said is only the truth. With 11 days to go I STILL don't know if I have a job on 1 Sep. After 20yrs service in the N Sea this is the worst I have been treated by a long way. It is intentional which is why Bristow seem to be being bashed. They want as many pilots as possible to be frightened into finding other jobs, before 1 Sep, so they don't have to pay them redundancy. They profess to be only taking 12 out of 29 pilots under TUPE so their potential redundancy payment, and they are paying the absolute minimum, could have been close to £400,000 and they are trying their best to reduce this.
Imagine if you were a 40yr old Captain with 2 kids at a local school and a reasonable mortgage how would you feel with 11 days to go!!
HF
Maybe it is but what has been said is only the truth. With 11 days to go I STILL don't know if I have a job on 1 Sep. After 20yrs service in the N Sea this is the worst I have been treated by a long way. It is intentional which is why Bristow seem to be being bashed. They want as many pilots as possible to be frightened into finding other jobs, before 1 Sep, so they don't have to pay them redundancy. They profess to be only taking 12 out of 29 pilots under TUPE so their potential redundancy payment, and they are paying the absolute minimum, could have been close to £400,000 and they are trying their best to reduce this.
Imagine if you were a 40yr old Captain with 2 kids at a local school and a reasonable mortgage how would you feel with 11 days to go!!
HF
Feel for you guys there! 
Is there no chance of transfer, i hear ABZ are in need. And they are interviewing this weekend.
Is there no chance of transfer, i hear ABZ are in need. And they are interviewing this weekend.
Last edited by chcoffshore; 20th Aug 2010 at 11:15. Reason: grammer
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Do you think chc would have behaved differently if the roles were reversed? I don't think so. The cold hard facts are it all comes down to money, in any industry.
Pilots worrying about redundancy, while they are living in a £400k+ house, kids in private school, long haul holidays, two nice cars, wife doesn't work.... If you get my drift?
(I'm not saying you are like this, it's just an observation of some pilots)
Pilots worrying about redundancy, while they are living in a £400k+ house, kids in private school, long haul holidays, two nice cars, wife doesn't work.... If you get my drift?
(I'm not saying you are like this, it's just an observation of some pilots)
WSP
I think you will find that when CHC took over the Coastguard contract from Bristow they behaved a lot better
Your comments about Pilot's lifestyles perhaps illustrates how badly Bristow are acting - imagine the stress if one finds the means of supporting that very imaginary lifestyle is threatened.
We accept that CHC has lost the contract and the status quo can't be maintained and if Bristow had come clean at the very beginning and said OK - only 12 pilots and they are A to L ( instead of BALPA breaking the news in a Friday newsletter) then that would probably have been acceptable but 11 days to go and no names in the frame for permanent jobs - well what do you think?
HF
I think you will find that when CHC took over the Coastguard contract from Bristow they behaved a lot better
Your comments about Pilot's lifestyles perhaps illustrates how badly Bristow are acting - imagine the stress if one finds the means of supporting that very imaginary lifestyle is threatened.
We accept that CHC has lost the contract and the status quo can't be maintained and if Bristow had come clean at the very beginning and said OK - only 12 pilots and they are A to L ( instead of BALPA breaking the news in a Friday newsletter) then that would probably have been acceptable but 11 days to go and no names in the frame for permanent jobs - well what do you think?
HF
wsp, you're ignorance is quite unbelievable.
Observation by you perhaps?
I was led to believe that CHC/Bristows carried out a relatively pain-free TUPE transfer with SAR? Is this or is it not correct. ? I don't know, it's just what I heard.
A lot of this present uncertainty could be because of the possible short notice given to the winning bidders re contracts?
Please remember some of us at Humberside are not Captains, a couple of us also paid £30k+ for an IR at the same time others had their IR's paid for, kids in local village school, 2 cars yes, my cars are 10 yrs old, and 3 yrs old. Wife works full time. £400k house I wish! You get my drift?
basically this whole issue affects us all. Yes it does all come down to money, and management, but it still doesn't change the fact some of us are still waiting to find out if we have jobs in 10 days time, to pay for those amazing luxuries you so ignorantly bleat on about!
If you don't know what you're talking about, I suggest you take a back seat and keep it buttoned pal!
Do you think chc would have behaved differently if the roles were reversed? I don't think so. The cold hard facts are it all comes down to money, in any industry.
Pilots worrying about redundancy, while they are living in a £400k+ house, kids in private school, long haul holidays, two nice cars, wife doesn't work.... If you get my drift?
(I'm not saying you are like this, it's just an observation of some pilots)
Pilots worrying about redundancy, while they are living in a £400k+ house, kids in private school, long haul holidays, two nice cars, wife doesn't work.... If you get my drift?
(I'm not saying you are like this, it's just an observation of some pilots)
I was led to believe that CHC/Bristows carried out a relatively pain-free TUPE transfer with SAR? Is this or is it not correct. ? I don't know, it's just what I heard.
A lot of this present uncertainty could be because of the possible short notice given to the winning bidders re contracts?
Please remember some of us at Humberside are not Captains, a couple of us also paid £30k+ for an IR at the same time others had their IR's paid for, kids in local village school, 2 cars yes, my cars are 10 yrs old, and 3 yrs old. Wife works full time. £400k house I wish! You get my drift?
basically this whole issue affects us all. Yes it does all come down to money, and management, but it still doesn't change the fact some of us are still waiting to find out if we have jobs in 10 days time, to pay for those amazing luxuries you so ignorantly bleat on about!
If you don't know what you're talking about, I suggest you take a back seat and keep it buttoned pal!
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helimutt
Not sure how much time a major world player in the helicopter world needs to get organised but Bristow knew in March they had the BP contract so thats 5 months. By the time the Conoco contract becomes active in November that will be similar. I would suggest they have had more than enough time to sort out manning issues particularly as they had a captive workforce to draw on with no requirement to advertise.
I understand that as yet there is still uncertainty as to which pilots are transferring at the end of next week.
Even worse is that a number of the engineers were called for interview at Bristow yesterday on what was clearly the "chop list". This was the second time that Bristow has called the CHC engineers in with effectively no notice.
Some were selected for the chop on the basis that they had restricted licenses. It became apparent that Bristow HR were totally unaware that the restrictions in question were irrelevent. The redundancy notices could then not be issued and the guys were told they would have to return for further interview next week.
The knock on effect is that most of the engineers (except avionics?) now have to attend a further competitive interview next week. That will be less than a week to go and most of the guys will still not know if they have a job or not.
To look on the bright side at least Bristow have managed to give them some notice!!!!
Just in case anyone thinks this is more Bristow bashing the general opinion is that CHC HR are just as bad.
Neither operator is going to come out of this looking anything other than incompetent. It is an HR disaster that was avoidable.
Not sure how much time a major world player in the helicopter world needs to get organised but Bristow knew in March they had the BP contract so thats 5 months. By the time the Conoco contract becomes active in November that will be similar. I would suggest they have had more than enough time to sort out manning issues particularly as they had a captive workforce to draw on with no requirement to advertise.
I understand that as yet there is still uncertainty as to which pilots are transferring at the end of next week.
Even worse is that a number of the engineers were called for interview at Bristow yesterday on what was clearly the "chop list". This was the second time that Bristow has called the CHC engineers in with effectively no notice.
Some were selected for the chop on the basis that they had restricted licenses. It became apparent that Bristow HR were totally unaware that the restrictions in question were irrelevent. The redundancy notices could then not be issued and the guys were told they would have to return for further interview next week.
The knock on effect is that most of the engineers (except avionics?) now have to attend a further competitive interview next week. That will be less than a week to go and most of the guys will still not know if they have a job or not.
To look on the bright side at least Bristow have managed to give them some notice!!!!
Just in case anyone thinks this is more Bristow bashing the general opinion is that CHC HR are just as bad.
Neither operator is going to come out of this looking anything other than incompetent. It is an HR disaster that was avoidable.
Shell of course have a more sophisticated approach to training than BP who slavishly follow OGP (its not 'OGM'). I really doubt BP want double OGP levels.
I expect the CHC pilots and engineers who want to join Bristow will recieve the same in-depth interview as those Bristow ones wishing to join Caverton-Dancopter. This is normal and not noteworthy.
It is remarkable that some people think that it would be better if Bristow made an early decision on who gets the chop. Smacks of blind malcontented militantism to me.
I expect the CHC pilots and engineers who want to join Bristow will recieve the same in-depth interview as those Bristow ones wishing to join Caverton-Dancopter. This is normal and not noteworthy.
It is remarkable that some people think that it would be better if Bristow made an early decision on who gets the chop. Smacks of blind malcontented militantism to me.
It amazes me how many people are prepared to comment and show such negativity, when this whole affair doesn't affect them in any way. Let's hope this never comes to an airfield near you anytime soon!
Last edited by helimutt; 23rd Aug 2010 at 08:12.
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I've just heard, the Captains with CHC at Humberside will be transferring to Bristow Helicopters, with the exception of one or two who are either being made redundant or requested redundancy, or who didn't have type ratings on the S76, and all of the copilots were informed earlier in the week that they had been successful in securing positions too. So at last, the guys there can breathe a sigh of relief. I just want to say well done for remaining professional for this long and good luck for your futures. 
Glad to see a happy outcome.
CHC should realise they are losing such decent pilots. These pilots who have had to put up with disgusting treatment from so-called professional operators, but managed to continue flying, even with the added stress of this situation, ad absurdum. What is CHC's loss, is Bristow's gain.
Safe flying.
Glad to see a happy outcome.CHC should realise they are losing such decent pilots. These pilots who have had to put up with disgusting treatment from so-called professional operators, but managed to continue flying, even with the added stress of this situation, ad absurdum. What is CHC's loss, is Bristow's gain.
Safe flying.