Autorotation: Hitting the spot

[rabidcat]

I am getting better at autos despite my instructor and my only real hangup is 'hitting the spot.' It is pretty bad actually. In the 22 I can enter a normal auto, switch to max glide, do S-turns, 360, etc fairly proficiently but I just can't seem to accurately judge the spot I am aiming for. I know most everyone has had this problem when they were learning, is it just repetition or is there some other trick?

[hueyracer]

You have to practice a lot before you will be expert on that...

1. Make sure that the conditions (Airspeed, GS, Wind, Height) are always the same when you enter auto.

2. Pick yourself a "visual aid" you will look at over the front panel.
(in my case i always use a spot i am looking at app.a palmwide above the front panel-giving me an imaginary glide path to follow).

3. Enter auto always with the same speed-if you close throttle fast one time, and slowly another time, it will make a big difference.

4. How do you define your flare altitude/attitude?
Using a radar alt will help-also take a look at the horizon when in the flare...

The rest is just practice.....practice....practice...

[EN48]

The rest is just practice.....practice....practice...

IMHO, its ALL practice. Hueyracer's advice may be useful for initial training, but in the event of a for-real auto, you'll have to start with what you are given re speed, altitude, wind, etc and make adjustments to deal with the circumstances. One of my instructors is in the practice of covering the flight instruments during autos, and insists that the whole maneuver should be performed looking out the window and "listening" to what the rotor is doing. Too much practice using a "mechanical" technique may actually be counterproductive. Let me be quick to add that I am still learning how to hit the spot. Repetition seems to be the most useful approach.

[spinwing]

Mmmmm ...

rabidcat .... don't sweat this too much ... at your stage what an examiner will be looking for is the entry .... an attempt to be able to get to a 'target' area and then the flare/arrival such that when all the noise stops you and your pax will able to walk away to a safe area, turn and gaze at the mess and have a laugh!

As experience increases you will find that you will be quickly able to get into the 'auto' then find the spot on the 'bubble' that is not moving ... your touchdown will be some 50-100' beyond that spot .... once you become proficient at quickly picking up this stationary spot ...you then learn how to manipulate the aircraft to place that spot just short of the desired touchdown point .... VOILA ... success ... but it DOES take some time !

If it were easy EVERYBODY would be able to do it (first time) !!!

Good luck ...

[ReverseFlight]

Make sure that the conditions (Airspeed, GS, Wind, Height) are always the same when you enter auto.

Sorry but I don't agree with this approach at all. You are up against Mother Nature and she controls you, not the other way.

The way I was taught is this : apart for obviously aiming (azimuth) for the spot, how do you avoid under/overshooting the spot ? Fly a base leg and turn in final when 100-150 ft AGL (assume you are not set up for a straight in). Get your airspeed correct, so increase your standard auto airspeed by half the headwind element if any. Moreover, it's all to do with the groundspeed as you approach the spot - do not use height AGL to judge the timing of the flare. When the groundspeed looks fast, that's when you initiate your flare.

[Shawn Coyle]

EN48's closest to the mark. Looking outside is the key. Cover up the airspeed indicator and learn to judge rate of closure with rate of descent.
The three types of autos that should be covered first to make sure you know how to use the height and speed available are:
a) shortening range (don't turn unless you absolutely have to- go 90 degrees to the wind and slow the speed to nearly zero groundspeed until the sight picture looks right, then positively simultaneously lower the nose and turn towards the spot. Turning more than 90 degrees to the spot only makes judging things much more difficult
b) going for range - go to maximum speed in autorotation and minimum rotor RPM. Hold this till you get to the flare, and then use all that speed to hold the flare height nearly forever.
c) autorotation where you have to turn to line up in to the wind (a spot a long way downwind of where you are.
When you've mastered those, nearly anything else is merely a minor adaptation of those technique.
PM me if you want the chapter in Cyclic and Collective about advanced autorotations.

[topendtorque]

Just don't let it worry you too much is the main thing.

Excellent advise in this thread, as usual, and especially SpinWings, where he talks about the touchdown spot in front of the glideslope.

There may be something else; If you have ever had a lazy eye, or don't even know about it, (mild astigatism or some other reason) then it could quite well be that when you are getting stressed that you are not getting the best benifits of the two eyed distance measurement, or depth perception.

See if you can short circuit the problem by giving yourself markers to work with. spinwings' is ideal.

Me I had that problem, i could never land a fixed wing on the same spot twice, when learning circuits under indentical conditions each time. That's when I learnt to look down, mark, power back a bit (the same bit each time), look down , mark, etc. just a bit of extra work and at the end of the day (oh dear that expression again) you will end up being smarter than those who don't have to work at it.

Those who have to work hard to get there have well proven their good capability compared to those who find it easy, i have found.

Certainly when / if the real crunch comes all of that practice will mean that you will without thinking point the machine, and control it easily, at the best and only spot around, that you have already picked out and it will be simple.

Above all if you feel that you are getting a bit crowded with the instruction ask your instructor if you can do something else for a while, or practice the sequence for a bit with someone else. no harm done for sure. go have a drink of tea or milo, not coffee.

all the best tet.

[Two's in]

rabidcat .... don't sweat this too much ... at your stage what an examiner will be looking for is the entry .... an attempt to be able to get to a 'target' area and then the flare/arrival such that when all the noise stops you and your pax will able to walk away to a safe area, turn and gaze at the mess and have a laugh!

Great advice from spinwng. Experience will improve your performance, but remember that if you don't get it right at the top of the auto - with a reflexive entry before you lose too much rrpm - what happens at the bottom will be a largely academic exercise.

[Alphabet]

Don't let the aircraft fly you, you fly it!

I just can't seem to accurately judge the spot I am aiming for.

I'm new to this site so not sure if I've extracted the quote correctly.

Anyway in the event of any emergency requiring an auto/PFL you should not be judging the spot you are aiming for (Aircraft flying you) but picking a suitable spot for the forced landing and you flying to it. If this point is static in you windscreen then you will make the spot but if it is moving up or down the windscreen then you are overshooting or undershooting and need to use one of the techniques to make good.

Another common fault is don't select a spot but use a line preferably about 1/3 of the way into a field and use the full width of the field to make that 1/3 line.

[newfieboy]

You guys crack me up, pick a field ,Mmmm hows about pick a tree. I just spent the best part of 8hrs today on a longline doing precision stuff with 2000lb loads as I do most days, getting eaten alive by flies, bugs etc, in the Boreal Forest, we dont have the luxury of fields, I wish

Also don;t have the option to putt about all day at cruise speed and 1000ft practicing entering autos at a set G/S,alt etc. When the donks quit, they quit, all I gotta do is get the pole down and punch the load, sounds easy, from 150ft, zero airspeed, yeah right.... pick a field, ummm , gonna be lucky to even pick a tree, guess thats why they pay the big bucks, ha ha, welcome to the operational world in Canada.........Oh and if I see the spot stayin in same place on my window, gonna figure I;m real lucky somehow, cos the real picture is going to be pretty damn blurred. Bin there, done it, got the Tshirt.

Oh to be bimbling round Blighty again with all those options.......

[EN48]

Bin there, done it, got the Tshirt

Finally - some realism!

[SASless]

The only instrument of importance is the Rotor Tach.....we live and die by Rotor RPM. During a real engine failure.....and autorotatiive landing....one cannot have too much Rotor RPM at the bottom. The Airspeed Indicator will show you Min Sink and Max Glide airpeeds (if you remember them) and when used in conjunction with Min Nr while maneuvering will give you the best performance for your particular aircraft. They are reference points.....not etched in stone.....move the controls to make the aircraft do what you need to do to hit that target you picked out at the start of the maneuver.

Arriving at a bad spot with bags of Nrand some airspeed is far better than landing at a great spot with no Nr and no airspeed. Always have something in the bag to trade!

Pick your exact spot....tree....bush...pond...road junction....or landing pad...helideck...ocean....what ever and do what is required to find yourself hitting that exact spot. If you over arc....S Turn, slow down, lower the lever some more....under arc....raise the lever a bit...get to the best glide airspeed and hold it until you regain your angle or cannot make it to the exact spot you picked at the very start of the maneuver.

Get into the habit of picking the exact spot you intend to land every time you begin an approach.....don't just aim for the airfield then pick a runway...then pick an area of the runway...then pick where on the runway....pick the exact spot.....visualize the skids setting on an exact spot....from the very start of your approach. Get into that habit during "normal operations" and you will do the same thing during an "Emergency".

[newfieboy]

SASless,

Couldn;t agree more, rotor speed, rotor speed.....you can never have too much, coincidentaly just did my PPC 2 weeks ago, check pilot and I had this conversation about overspeeds, and both came to conclusion, F#### the overspeed in real life....least of our worries, and we both had donks quit for real in times past, by the time we reached spots , rotor was pretty much doing nothing, re hard landings, but walk away.

Kinda hard when the donks quit, when your;e doing vertical reference, at 150ft to make any sense of anything we were taught, by the time you realise, and get your head up, you have just got to go with the flow and hope the life presavation that kicks in works, although always been taught in that situ, pick the tree/spot if your lucky and don;t change your mind, no time, just go for it.......worked for me
.PS SAS, when you flew N.Sea, did you ever fly outta Strubby or Bristows at Holten le Clay I think it was Late 70;s if ya did, mayb it was you I heard goin out at night.... small world.

[rabidcat]

Very interesting. I have noticed that most of the techniques suggested about using the non moving spot on windscreen etc are not taught by my instructor. In fact, really the only thing my current instructor has taught me is to cut the throttle, lower collective and maintain heading with pedals, rpm management, pick the spot (vaguely), and how and when to flare and level skids. Beyond the basic controls of the maneuver, he has given me nothing on actual technique... I really appreciate all of your help. Autos have been embarrassingly frustrating for me. I started autos at around my 20th hr of flight time, and I am currently at 75 and am no better off really... Embarrassing... let me say it one more time... Embarrassing...

Thanks again everyone

[tony 1969]

"Cut the throttle" to enter auto in an R22 ?
Cant remember the Safety notice number but please lower the lever first...

[SASless]

My signature line.....and will probably be etched into my Tombstone is.......
"Limitations are for Normal Operations!"

There is nothing normal about crashing!

An undriven overspeed is no big deal if you are headed into the trees or some very unhealthy looking place....RPM is thy Lord and Saviour!

At least one Shell Aviation Advisor learned my Motto while flying in the 212 Sim at FSI......he got to experience what a Thunderstorm was all about while on approach into DFW....using the same weather model developed from the Delta Airline crash that generated the "Micro Burst" concept. He did not appreciate the method used to teach him....but later on accepted the universal truth of the motto. Hopefully, he has passed it along to others.

[EN48]

you can never have too much

My instructor is fond of saying, " I cant recall anyone who has died as a result of too much rotor speed."

[SASless]

Rabid,

The old grease pencil mark(chinagraph pen) on the windscreen should have been explained about lesson two in your flight training. It is the basis of all approaches in helicopters. It is related to the concept of a constant angle approach....keep the dot on the target and adjust apparant rate of closure and you will fly a constant angle during the approach. At the end of the approach....the target of course must slide under the aircraft but for almost the entire approach the dot on the target works a treat.

Sometimes a change of instructor can be beneficial as we all have things we teach better. A different instructor may have the ability to teach you autorotations better than your current instructor. No slight to your current guy....but sometimes a change is good.

[topendtorque]

Cant remember the Safety notice number but please lower the lever first...

SN37

" I cant recall anyone who has died as a result of too much rotor speed."

You should also refer to SN36.

Rabidcat. please be careful, the most important thing is that your aircraft is set up IAW the Manufaturers Manual.

Ask you friendly engineer to refer you to the section regarding the correct rigging of auto RPM. in the Robinson manual it is exceptionally well laid out. The most important thing in autos is the lowest ROD consistant with the prevailing AUW. That will always occur at the correct auto RRPM setting.

Having the RRPM screaming its' head orf at impact is not a good idea.

I myself have seen a situation where the ELT went off before the low rotor RRPM horn. what does that tell you?

With regard to the operationally tight areas etc that our good friend newfieboy refers to, please don't worry about that so much just now.

You might fluke a job where you are always above 500'AGL and good EOL landing areas, the mental selection of which must be your constant companion.

Sure many of us have been faced with many unexpected and seemingly impossible situations, not always in R22s.

Be assured that your practice in the basics now will stand you in good stead as it did us, IF that day ever happens.

Plenty of R22 pilots went more than 10K hours without ever having a mishap.

One thing that Frank is known for and that is that every mechanical mishap that happens to his machines he will work tirelessly at correcting.

Forget the hyperbole, concentrate on the basics, you will get there.

cheers tet

[hueyracer]

Maybe we could all fetch our balls and put the back in again....?

We are talking about a BEGINNER-and about how he can improve his technique...
It doesnīt help him to hear big stories about VR, LL and other crap.

He wanted to know how he can IMPROVE HIS TRAINING.

And again i suggest:

First try to start entering autos from the same altitude and with the same speed....
That leads to a point where you are entering your glidepath at the same angle all the time...

Then you develop the "eye" to be able telling when you have to do what to hit your spot...

At the beginning-your spot will be several dozens of meters big....getting smaller from time to time...
When you are hitting the same spot within a meter ALL THE TIME-you can think about doing autos out of the "dead manīs curve"..
(Donīt worry about that now...).

That was the way i taught my (military) students how to "hit the spot"....and it worked all the time...

And for all those still telling you "one cannot have enough rotor speed"...
There is a reason WHY there is a lower AND an upper limit...

Exceeding the upper limit can result in a loss of the main rotor-or cause big damages so "hitting the spot" is then the most minor of your problems..

Try to train-you will find out that you are always looking outside the window first time....then, when developing your technique, you have some "green balls" left to observe the instruments.....and at the end, you do not need the instruments at all, because you KNOW everything when you are looking out of the window again...