R22 accident Henau Switzerland
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R22 accident Henau Switzerland
From the Swiss police web site:
There was a helicopter crash on Thursday 27 May 2010 around 3:20 pm on a grass field in Henau. Both persons on board have been taken to hospital by an emergency car and extend of their injuries is not yet know.
The 37 year old instructor and his 40 year old pilot student took off in Sitterdorf for a training flight. The 2 seat helicopter came down during a maneuver. The exact details of the accident and the value of the damage are not yet known. The BAZL (civil aviation authority) is investigating.
Henau: Zwei Verletzte bei Helikopterabsturz
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There was a helicopter crash on Thursday 27 May 2010 around 3:20 pm on a grass field in Henau. Both persons on board have been taken to hospital by an emergency car and extend of their injuries is not yet know.
The 37 year old instructor and his 40 year old pilot student took off in Sitterdorf for a training flight. The 2 seat helicopter came down during a maneuver. The exact details of the accident and the value of the damage are not yet known. The BAZL (civil aviation authority) is investigating.
Henau: Zwei Verletzte bei Helikopterabsturz
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Last edited by Senior Pilot; 27th May 2010 at 21:25. Reason: Photos too big for PPRuNe
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I just learned that both pilots could walk away on their own after the crash. They have been discharged from hospital after just a few hours. The helicopter belongs to Heli Sitterdorf AG.
According to the aircraft accident investigation bureau (AAIB) it happened during a practice autorotation.
According to the aircraft accident investigation bureau (AAIB) it happened during a practice autorotation.
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I would be very interested to find out whether people just want to write this of as finger trouble at the bottom, or,
drum roll,
whirl mode; as in Robinson Saftey Notice SN-36. (see the website)
Just sooooo many aircraft are set up with the incorrect auto RPM (way too high) and it is only a matter of time before we see the effect of it in auto's, if it hasn't already happened but not been deduced because the accidents were not examined carefully.
The Maintenance Manual gives specific instruction as to the setting up of correct auto RPM.
I do not know of many who follow the MM in that regard.
If it was whirl mode it would have been right at the bottom otherwise it would have been a distinct nose low attitude impact.
cheers tet
drum roll,
whirl mode; as in Robinson Saftey Notice SN-36. (see the website)
Just sooooo many aircraft are set up with the incorrect auto RPM (way too high) and it is only a matter of time before we see the effect of it in auto's, if it hasn't already happened but not been deduced because the accidents were not examined carefully.
The Maintenance Manual gives specific instruction as to the setting up of correct auto RPM.
I do not know of many who follow the MM in that regard.
If it was whirl mode it would have been right at the bottom otherwise it would have been a distinct nose low attitude impact.
cheers tet
Yet another avoidable accident doing autos ...what a waste of time and utterly unnecessary . How many helis written off practicing autos ?? and how many in ACTUAL engine failures ??? I now get a reduced premium on any of mine as i stipulate NO autos to ground EVER . At least it was only a 22 and not a helicopter 
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practice autos
Ignoring the last sentence of Nigel's post, he's absolutely right.
The number of of R22s that crash practicing for an engine failure outweigh the number that crash after an actual engine failure -- by a LOT. (Maybe Veeany has the stats?)
Last Thursday I was visiting a very experienced instructor in hospital who crashed in April this year whilst practicing autos.
he's 42, and is now paralysed from the waist down.
It's such a waste, and I think it's about time the PPL syllabus was reviewed.
Big Ls
Big Ls.
The number of of R22s that crash practicing for an engine failure outweigh the number that crash after an actual engine failure -- by a LOT. (Maybe Veeany has the stats?)
Last Thursday I was visiting a very experienced instructor in hospital who crashed in April this year whilst practicing autos.
he's 42, and is now paralysed from the waist down.
It's such a waste, and I think it's about time the PPL syllabus was reviewed.
Big Ls
Big Ls.
It really is madness now ....there will be at least 10 or 20 aircraft destroyed and people hurt practicing the WRONG things for every ONE hurt /damaged in a real failure .!!!! Nobody is going to get killed messing up the last 5 feet of an auto ....so it lands hard / rolls over etc big deal .Even the best of us will do that if they land on sloping ground etc There is NO need for this training now with engines so reliable ...most of us only do them because they are fun and cool . Why dont we stop the carnage ( admittedly only Robbos as a rule ) and do power recovery ....save a shed load of money on insurance ......and then practice the things that really DO kill people ....but typically are NOT covered in our normal training . ( Having said that there are instructors out there who do prepare their students properly and do a lot of training thats NOT in the book)
1) Flight into bad weather ..precautionary landing .
2) flight into cloud with 180 turn ...yes this may have to be done by an IR instructor but could still be done in a single . ( pls no drivel about needing 2 engines ....i am talking about popping into light cloud with say 1,000 base for 30 seconds with a fully qualified pilot possibly also done in controlled airspace but unlikely CAA will allow anything that will actually be useful in flight safety !! )
3) Confined area landings ......NO i dont mean landing on a cricket pitch with trees around it ...i mean properly tight like you will do when you get to your mates house and find he has lied about the size of his garden .
Lastly , i think i am right to say that most fatal engine failures , especially in Robbos , have been due to lack of RRPM , so these guys are dead whatever they do at the bottom .......this means practice more of the flare / drop collective and just do a recovery . It seems so obvious . I suggest that you owners contact your insurance co,s and say that your aircraft will never do autos to the ground and pocket a load of cash ....
1) Flight into bad weather ..precautionary landing .
2) flight into cloud with 180 turn ...yes this may have to be done by an IR instructor but could still be done in a single . ( pls no drivel about needing 2 engines ....i am talking about popping into light cloud with say 1,000 base for 30 seconds with a fully qualified pilot possibly also done in controlled airspace but unlikely CAA will allow anything that will actually be useful in flight safety !! )
3) Confined area landings ......NO i dont mean landing on a cricket pitch with trees around it ...i mean properly tight like you will do when you get to your mates house and find he has lied about the size of his garden .
Lastly , i think i am right to say that most fatal engine failures , especially in Robbos , have been due to lack of RRPM , so these guys are dead whatever they do at the bottom .......this means practice more of the flare / drop collective and just do a recovery . It seems so obvious . I suggest that you owners contact your insurance co,s and say that your aircraft will never do autos to the ground and pocket a load of cash ....
It's not the syllabus that needs changing - it is the aircraft being used for training that needs replacing. EOLs in an R22 are very exciting, regardless of your experience - how may 300's, jetrangers, squirrels etc get damaged doing EOLs? Very few.
1000's of EOLs are conducted perfectly safely every year at DHFS because the right airframe for the job was selected (and the R22 was in the running right at the beginning).
I know R22s are much cheaper but if you choose a cheap car you don't complain when it doesn't have the same performance and safety as a BMW or Audi.
So am I advocating that fewer people should learn to fly helos? yes if it means they stop getting killed doing it.
1000's of EOLs are conducted perfectly safely every year at DHFS because the right airframe for the job was selected (and the R22 was in the running right at the beginning).
I know R22s are much cheaper but if you choose a cheap car you don't complain when it doesn't have the same performance and safety as a BMW or Audi.
So am I advocating that fewer people should learn to fly helos? yes if it means they stop getting killed doing it.
What's the proportion of R22 vs H300/R44/B206/AS350 involved in training or the fleet as a whole ?
And what percentage of this type of accident is on R22 compared to others ?
And you're right, EOLs are exciting in the 22. Perhaps that's why I put on enough weight not to be able to fly and instruct on them
And what percentage of this type of accident is on R22 compared to others ?
And you're right, EOLs are exciting in the 22. Perhaps that's why I put on enough weight not to be able to fly and instruct on them
The problem is that the rules allow the autorotation characteristics to be subjective in accordance with the requirements of the regulations.
Who determines this? Who ticks the boxes for the Type Certificate?
There are SFAR's out there to cover this issue which must indicate that there is an exception!
Remember that Frank R. never designed this aircraft to be a "trainer".
The simple way to avoid this is don't do it. If the training syllabus requires you to do it - go and get a different type of aircraft.
and without exceptional piloting skill or exceptionally favourable conditions
There are SFAR's out there to cover this issue which must indicate that there is an exception!
Remember that Frank R. never designed this aircraft to be a "trainer".
The simple way to avoid this is don't do it. If the training syllabus requires you to do it - go and get a different type of aircraft.
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It's not the syllabus that needs changing - it is the aircraft being used for training that needs replacing... Remember that Frank R. never designed this aircraft to be a "trainer".
At least it was only a 22 and not a helicopter
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This thing about ruling out autos from the syllabus is just plain nonsense.
Specially for people flying Single piston engines.
In 16 year flying career, I had only once to perform a full autorrotation in a twin turbine helo, and that saved our day.
I understand the concern from the small FTO companies in Europe that would prefer not to "take chances" with autorotations, but like it or not, helicopter pilot know how to perform them, and there is no simulator yet that can reproduce this better than making it real. Besides, it provides the pilot the self confidence, he can do it on the real thing.
I did my pilot training in the USA, and there from day 3 we were performming full down autorotations day and night (by night, we do it on a runway) in an R-22 early model.
I see with concern how in Europe, the powerful FTO, try to drag the trainig programs more into classrom theory and simulator, while pilots just fly the very very minimum flight time alone and maneuvers such autorotations are recovered at 300 feet instead performing full dows.
And you can feel the resoult of that kind of "training" when the young pilots jump into the demanding company trainings programs.
Helicopter flying is much safer with a pilot in command confident and skilled to perform a full autorrotation than with a guy that just have heard about it.
Specially for people flying Single piston engines.
In 16 year flying career, I had only once to perform a full autorrotation in a twin turbine helo, and that saved our day.
I understand the concern from the small FTO companies in Europe that would prefer not to "take chances" with autorotations, but like it or not, helicopter pilot know how to perform them, and there is no simulator yet that can reproduce this better than making it real. Besides, it provides the pilot the self confidence, he can do it on the real thing.
I did my pilot training in the USA, and there from day 3 we were performming full down autorotations day and night (by night, we do it on a runway) in an R-22 early model.
I see with concern how in Europe, the powerful FTO, try to drag the trainig programs more into classrom theory and simulator, while pilots just fly the very very minimum flight time alone and maneuvers such autorotations are recovered at 300 feet instead performing full dows.
And you can feel the resoult of that kind of "training" when the young pilots jump into the demanding company trainings programs.
Helicopter flying is much safer with a pilot in command confident and skilled to perform a full autorrotation than with a guy that just have heard about it.
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Frank Robinson Built the margins way to small,
amazing how the car industry wouldn't put up with anything that is so intolerant to mistakes and can be crashed so easily. He would have been sued (and lost) long ago
amazing how the car industry wouldn't put up with anything that is so intolerant to mistakes and can be crashed so easily. He would have been sued (and lost) long ago
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Frank wanted to ban ALL practice autos in the R22 but the FAA would not let him
Yes, they are tricky to auto-rotate well, but as long as you stick to some simple rules, you should be ok
How about...
1 - at least 15 knots of wind. no gusting/shear
2 - always do them dead into wind
3 - never more than 10 gallons of fuel on board
4 - never roll the throttle completely off, roll it to just under 80%
4 - FULLY brief the student beforehand how it's going to work. if it's the first few times a student has done an auto, get them to follow YOU through very gently.
5 - do not do them to the ground
6 - do a check at 300 feet: airspeed at least 60 knots, RRPM in green, into wind, no excessive rate of descent. if not... roll on power and go around.
7 - as soon as you start the flare, roll on throttle and rejoin the needles
8 - if you're unexperienced in teaching autos, flare a bit earlier, bring power in a bit earlier
9 - never do more than three practice autos in any one flight
10 - try to do a long progressive flare, as oppose to a late agressive one. gives you much more time to see if its going ok
Yes, they are tricky to auto-rotate well, but as long as you stick to some simple rules, you should be ok
How about...
1 - at least 15 knots of wind. no gusting/shear
2 - always do them dead into wind
3 - never more than 10 gallons of fuel on board
4 - never roll the throttle completely off, roll it to just under 80%
4 - FULLY brief the student beforehand how it's going to work. if it's the first few times a student has done an auto, get them to follow YOU through very gently.
5 - do not do them to the ground
6 - do a check at 300 feet: airspeed at least 60 knots, RRPM in green, into wind, no excessive rate of descent. if not... roll on power and go around.
7 - as soon as you start the flare, roll on throttle and rejoin the needles
8 - if you're unexperienced in teaching autos, flare a bit earlier, bring power in a bit earlier
9 - never do more than three practice autos in any one flight
10 - try to do a long progressive flare, as oppose to a late agressive one. gives you much more time to see if its going ok
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How about...
I kid you not. The HKCAD has no idea what's going on.
Last edited by ReverseFlight; 6th Jun 2010 at 13:50.
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amazing how the car industry wouldn't put up with anything that is so intolerant to mistakes and can be crashed so easily. He would have been sued (and lost) long ago
Frank designed the R22 as a personal transport aircraft. NOT as a trainer. Schools adopted it because of cost reasons.
The R22 is entirely safe as a trainer. IF you know how to teach in it properly.
amazing how the car industry wouldn't put up with anything that is so intolerant to mistakes and can be crashed so easily. He would have been sued (and lost) long ago
Nobody is saying dont do autos ...all we are saying is do them down to 10 -15ft and power recovery . If you can get it right down to that level without excess forward speed and plenty RRPM then you are going to land fairly soft whatever you do .....if you write it off ..does it matter ??? If you want to do full down autos you should pay an extra premium on your insurance and NOT drag us all into higher premiums due to crashing the pesky little blighters all the time !!!!
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The most valuable lesson learned during an autorotation comes from the last 4 seconds before touchdown. There is where you save the day or ruin it, maybe forever and of course it is the difficult lesson to learn.
Alos is the lesson that would give you confidence in performing the maneuver.
Non full down autos are just good as to teach the student how to enter in the autp, control the RPM and adjust the glide path, so far not too much difficult after some experience.
For me anyone pretending to transport passengers in a helicopter must be proficient in completing full down autorrotations.
I am sorry about the insurance issues, but belive me the best insurance for your helicopter is a well trained pilot.
A pilot that has never performed a full touchdown auto, that his last "simulated autorotation" was months or years ago and that suffers a malfuctions that places him in a real autorotation scenario have few to none chances to survive.
I think that performing training with really experienced instructors that are doing autorrotations all day, your chances to have damage to the helo are vastly reduced.
Alos is the lesson that would give you confidence in performing the maneuver.
Non full down autos are just good as to teach the student how to enter in the autp, control the RPM and adjust the glide path, so far not too much difficult after some experience.
For me anyone pretending to transport passengers in a helicopter must be proficient in completing full down autorrotations.
I am sorry about the insurance issues, but belive me the best insurance for your helicopter is a well trained pilot.
A pilot that has never performed a full touchdown auto, that his last "simulated autorotation" was months or years ago and that suffers a malfuctions that places him in a real autorotation scenario have few to none chances to survive.
I think that performing training with really experienced instructors that are doing autorrotations all day, your chances to have damage to the helo are vastly reduced.
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Frank designed the R22 as a personal transport aircraft. NOT as a trainer. Schools adopted it because of cost reasons.
The R22 is entirely safe as a trainer. IF you know how to teach in it properly.
The R22 is entirely safe as a trainer. IF you know how to teach in it properly.
I did FULL touchdowns with all of my students back in the mid 1980's using an R22 Alpha(no tip weights). One student in particular was shall we say "not suited to be a pilot" but hey, they pay I teach. This student just could not grasp things. I can't remember how many autos this student did in order to get me to sign him off. I was hoping he would just stop coming back. I did not want to be responsible for him. I signed him off and I moved on. A year later he was in an R22 and the belts broke or came off. Full 180 auto to the ground, landed in a parking lot. Not a scratch on the helicopter. Don't know who was happier, him or me.
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I am a low hours and (sadly) lapsed PPL so this question is for knowledge/interest.
I always figured that as long as you got the thing into auto, managed the RPM on the way down, made a decent fist of the flare and pulled in collective, you would survive. Might well bend the machine and break some bones but you would live to tell the story.
Of course I know a good arrival is far more complex as I did many autos to the ground and power recovery (I was blessed with some of the best instructors in the UK - FAST at Thruxton) but am interested in opinions re the above.
Cheers
Simon
I always figured that as long as you got the thing into auto, managed the RPM on the way down, made a decent fist of the flare and pulled in collective, you would survive. Might well bend the machine and break some bones but you would live to tell the story.
Of course I know a good arrival is far more complex as I did many autos to the ground and power recovery (I was blessed with some of the best instructors in the UK - FAST at Thruxton) but am interested in opinions re the above.
Cheers
Simon
Last edited by Simonta; 8th Jun 2010 at 19:41.