Rules re flying G reg on FAA licence
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Rules re flying G reg on FAA licence
The old rule of thumb was you have to have 2 out of 3 ....when flying abroad. Ie UK licence on G reg or FAA on N reg abroad, but i am told that now, with the new so called open sky, you can fly a G reg in Europe on your FAA ticket . Does anybody know the FACTS ?? I have heard loads of speculation but would like to know the facts . I am going to be flying a G reg machine around Europe soon and face having to get the type on my licence ( i have been flying this machine for the last 6 months and done around 100 hrs ). Typically the CAA make this a painful operation , as they are trying to stop all aviation in this country
Do i have to just sit a check ride ? of course not ....a written exam followed by a check ride ? Dont be stupid !!!!! No , i have to do 3 hours of training and then bring an examiner up from the South to do the test What a load of rubbish ....nearly 4 hours of flying and a whole load of fees just in the name of red tape . If its a grey area maybe someone should put it to the test?
Flying abroad can be the ONLY reason that anyone would want a CAA licence is it not ? AND you get your night rating built in at the same time .
ps forgot to say that an instructor has checked with someone at the CAA and they were not sure .........
Do i have to just sit a check ride ? of course not ....a written exam followed by a check ride ? Dont be stupid !!!!! No , i have to do 3 hours of training and then bring an examiner up from the South to do the test What a load of rubbish ....nearly 4 hours of flying and a whole load of fees just in the name of red tape . If its a grey area maybe someone should put it to the test?Flying abroad can be the ONLY reason that anyone would want a CAA licence is it not ? AND you get your night rating built in at the same time .
ps forgot to say that an instructor has checked with someone at the CAA and they were not sure .........
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According to the CAA Website:
Although the intro states the enquiries regards operating within the UK, nothing I read states it is not applicable outside the UK.
The UK ANO states it is legal to fly a G Reg machine on a valid ICAO license and medical.
I don't know what would stop this being legal crossing the border, unless the respective countries have legislation that states reg and license have to be the same.
We have received a number of enquiries from Non-UK licence holders about exercising the privileges of their licences within the UK. The situation is as follows:
Article 50(i) of the Air Navigation Order 2009 (the ANO), states that a pilot must hold an appropriate licence to fly a UK registered aircraft. An appropriate licence is a licence granted or rendered valid under the Order.
JAA aeroplane and helicopter licences are, subject to the conditions included in it, validated by the Certificate of Validation in the Official Record Series No.4 – Miscellaneous, ORS4 No.747
A licence, except a Student Pilot Licence or equivalent issued by any other ICAO Contracting State (including a JAA State that has not yet been recommended for mutual recognition) is also deemed to be valid under the ANO for the purposes of flying a UK registered aircraft, providing that the licence and medical are valid in accordance with the rules/laws of the issuing State, and the CAA does not in the particular case give a direction to the contrary. However, Article 62(4) of the ANO states that the holder of such a licence cannot:
1) Act as a member of the fight crew of any aircraft flying for the purpose of commercial air transport, public transport or aerial work or on any flight in respect of which he receives remuneration for his services as a member of the flight crew; or
2) In the case of a pilot’s licence, act as a pilot of any aircraft flying in controlled airspace in circumstances requiring compliance with the Instrument Flight Rules or to give any instruction in flying.
Where a licence contains any extraordinary operational or medical limitations, individuals should contact L&TS for advice.
Article 50(i) of the Air Navigation Order 2009 (the ANO), states that a pilot must hold an appropriate licence to fly a UK registered aircraft. An appropriate licence is a licence granted or rendered valid under the Order.
JAA aeroplane and helicopter licences are, subject to the conditions included in it, validated by the Certificate of Validation in the Official Record Series No.4 – Miscellaneous, ORS4 No.747
A licence, except a Student Pilot Licence or equivalent issued by any other ICAO Contracting State (including a JAA State that has not yet been recommended for mutual recognition) is also deemed to be valid under the ANO for the purposes of flying a UK registered aircraft, providing that the licence and medical are valid in accordance with the rules/laws of the issuing State, and the CAA does not in the particular case give a direction to the contrary. However, Article 62(4) of the ANO states that the holder of such a licence cannot:
1) Act as a member of the fight crew of any aircraft flying for the purpose of commercial air transport, public transport or aerial work or on any flight in respect of which he receives remuneration for his services as a member of the flight crew; or
2) In the case of a pilot’s licence, act as a pilot of any aircraft flying in controlled airspace in circumstances requiring compliance with the Instrument Flight Rules or to give any instruction in flying.
Where a licence contains any extraordinary operational or medical limitations, individuals should contact L&TS for advice.
The UK ANO states it is legal to fly a G Reg machine on a valid ICAO license and medical.
I don't know what would stop this being legal crossing the border, unless the respective countries have legislation that states reg and license have to be the same.
Thread Starter
Like all the rest of the legislation made by the CAA this makes things very clear .......does anyone have experience of flying a G reg in Europe on their FAA ticket ???? and have they had any problems relating to this ?? I agree that i think you CAN now fly in Europe on your FAA .
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Do i take it that there are NO people out there who fly their G reg machines in Europe on FAA ticket ???? Or fly their N reg in Europe on their UK ticket ?? Thanks for any help otherwise waiting for CAA to decide if they understand their own rules .
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Nigelh, you should have received the e-mail I forwarded onto you from Tim. I have had the French translated by my sons girlfriend and it does say that they would accept a UK registered helicopter flown on an FAA licence in their airspace.......but I would regard this possibly as an exemption for the person who requested it in the first place and I think it would be unwise to assume that you can just go ahead and do it, remember this person also applied to the German authorities aswell, although a copy of this letter is unavailable at the moment but I believe the content of this letter is the same, the German authorities were happy to let this happen. As I said before, one of the options open to you is to apply to the relevant authorities which is what this person did. I understand where your frustrations come from with regarding putting a new type on your licence, but unlike the FAA licence which is a group rating, the UK licence has always as far I am aware been a type rating, and prior to JAR you would have been required to do a minimum of 5 hours training /testing. This requirement of additional flight training is nothing new and if you want to put this type on your UK licence then you will have to do it, as is the requirement to having an examiner who has not been involved in your flight training. It is not a question of common sense but is a legal requirement. The excerpt of the ANO is interesting but you do have to bear in mind that this is UK law, not European law, which is where you want to fly. I have also been led to believe this has more to do with icao licence priveliges rather than the open skies policy. As I said to you when we first discussed this, if you don't want to go through with the type rating to put it on your UK licence then I would contact the relevant authorities and get the clearance from the horses mouth so to speak. I will call you tomorrow.
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I don't see why you couldn't fly a G-reg on an FAA license, regardless of the country you fly in.
It's not the country you're overflying that says what license you need to fly the aircraft; it's the country that has registered the aircraft that decides what is needed to fly it.
And of course the ANO is just UK law, but it's all that's needed. My guess is that you'll find (in other countries' legislations) things along the lines of "foreign registered aircraft are to be operated in accordance with the rules of the country registering the aircraft"...
Look at it this way: you can fly a G-reg with a national UK license (not JAR) without any problem in Europe.
From a French/German/Whatever perspective, an FAA certificate is no different than a national UK license; it's just a non-French/German/Whatever license... so why should it be treated differently?
It's not the country you're overflying that says what license you need to fly the aircraft; it's the country that has registered the aircraft that decides what is needed to fly it.
And of course the ANO is just UK law, but it's all that's needed. My guess is that you'll find (in other countries' legislations) things along the lines of "foreign registered aircraft are to be operated in accordance with the rules of the country registering the aircraft"...
Look at it this way: you can fly a G-reg with a national UK license (not JAR) without any problem in Europe.
From a French/German/Whatever perspective, an FAA certificate is no different than a national UK license; it's just a non-French/German/Whatever license... so why should it be treated differently?
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From Birddogs post above, if I understand it correctly, it seems that it is legal to fly a G-reg on an FAA license so long as you don't get paid for it or fly IFR in controlled airspace.
In other words you can more or less fly as a PPL (ie. not for reward) even though you have a CPL or ATP. Is that about right?
In other words you can more or less fly as a PPL (ie. not for reward) even though you have a CPL or ATP. Is that about right?
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Hi Nigel, I do exactly this.
PM me next week (I am away at present) and I will send you the correspondence I received from French DGAC - which I now carry in my flight bag just in case.
Essentially, no issue to fly in France on ICAO license (FAA) on G reg aircraft, as long as you are not flying in IMC or commercially (same as our ANO). The French would have issue (strangely) if you flew a F reg machine.
I suspect the rest of Europe doesn't care that much (but happy to contact their aviation authorities when required).
PM me next week (I am away at present) and I will send you the correspondence I received from French DGAC - which I now carry in my flight bag just in case.
Essentially, no issue to fly in France on ICAO license (FAA) on G reg aircraft, as long as you are not flying in IMC or commercially (same as our ANO). The French would have issue (strangely) if you flew a F reg machine.
I suspect the rest of Europe doesn't care that much (but happy to contact their aviation authorities when required).
Thread Starter
Isnt it wonderful that the CAA are incapable of drafting any kind of sensible rules / laws that people can understand !!!! They work on the basis that its probably NOT going to be possible and probably WILL be illegal ...but dont know why !! Now we have established this i would suggest that EVERYONE who is considering a UL ppl should change their minds and get an FAA licence . It is far better / more common sense / far cheaper to maintain / gives you a night rating at the same time ( this is the one area that may catch you ...when in Europe you cannot operate IFR on this licence ....well Night is not VFR so is it IFR ?? ) Other than that i cannot see any good reason to have a ppl from the UK .....Can you ?????
i would suggest that EVERYONE who is considering a UL ppl should change their minds and get an FAA licence .
...when in Europe you cannot operate IFR on this licence...
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I now at last have the answer !! ( And typically my sources who asked the CAA got it wrong !!
If flying a G reg on an ICAO ( non JAR ) IR , the UK ANO prohibits IFR in controlled airspece. Ref: ANO article 26 (4) (a) (ii) in the case of a pilots licence, to act as pilot of any aircraft flying in controlled airspace in circumstances requiring compliance with Instrument Flight Rules
Since everything NOT prohibited IS permitted , this means you can fly a G reg on an FAA PPL/IR worldwide VFR in class B,C,D,E,F,G and worldwide IFR in class F,G.
To be practical about it , IFR in class F/G is not useful outside the UK since most airspace in which IFR is authorised (or one can get an IFR routing in ) is at least Class E. Its useable in the UK but only partially : you could fly IFR to say Biggin Hill ( Class G ) but not to Bournmouth (Class D ) This is why getting an IMC Rating is desirable since it extends IFR to Class D , however you then also need a UK PPL , UK Medical etc
If flying a G reg on an ICAO ( non JAR ) IR , the UK ANO prohibits IFR in controlled airspece. Ref: ANO article 26 (4) (a) (ii) in the case of a pilots licence, to act as pilot of any aircraft flying in controlled airspace in circumstances requiring compliance with Instrument Flight Rules
Since everything NOT prohibited IS permitted , this means you can fly a G reg on an FAA PPL/IR worldwide VFR in class B,C,D,E,F,G and worldwide IFR in class F,G.
To be practical about it , IFR in class F/G is not useful outside the UK since most airspace in which IFR is authorised (or one can get an IFR routing in ) is at least Class E. Its useable in the UK but only partially : you could fly IFR to say Biggin Hill ( Class G ) but not to Bournmouth (Class D ) This is why getting an IMC Rating is desirable since it extends IFR to Class D , however you then also need a UK PPL , UK Medical etc
the UK ANO prohibits IFR in controlled airspece. Ref: ANO article 26 (4) (a) (ii) in the case of a pilots licence
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Thanks nigelh for figuring that out! It could hardy be more complicated, although I'm sure CAA could work on that!
Its high time that licenses became more internationally recognised to avoid ridiculous complications like this. The crazy thing is that you fly around Europe in an N-reg without any complications but jump into the same aircraft with a G-reg and there are a heap of restrictions.
Maybe in our lifetime we will see licenses being more universal..... Or not!
Its high time that licenses became more internationally recognised to avoid ridiculous complications like this. The crazy thing is that you fly around Europe in an N-reg without any complications but jump into the same aircraft with a G-reg and there are a heap of restrictions.
Maybe in our lifetime we will see licenses being more universal..... Or not!
Thread Starter
To be fair all the "restrictions " were primarily folk law passed down from one person to another and not helped by many CAA officials who also thought it was illegal . In fact you can pretty much fly anywhere in the world with FAA licence on G reg machine and the only restrictions are related to IFR ...so not bad compared to most things CAA related !!
Next question is do you keep your group ( single turbines in my case Gazelle, H 369 , B 206 + L , As350 , Enstrom 480 ) current if you go overdue your annual check flight and then do a check on one type ...and you have flown the other types within 12 months but on your FAA licence ? ie technically your type ratings have lapsed but you have kept current flying on your FAA licence . Any answers ??
Next question is do you keep your group ( single turbines in my case Gazelle, H 369 , B 206 + L , As350 , Enstrom 480 ) current if you go overdue your annual check flight and then do a check on one type ...and you have flown the other types within 12 months but on your FAA licence ? ie technically your type ratings have lapsed but you have kept current flying on your FAA licence . Any answers ??
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I would think so yes, maybe via a lease agreement. You best ask nigelh!
Starspeed and Premiair both operate N-reg machines on behalf of private owners. (although the pilots may have FAA licences as well as JAA)
Starspeed and Premiair both operate N-reg machines on behalf of private owners. (although the pilots may have FAA licences as well as JAA)
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I do believe ( but dont trust me !!) that you can fly a corporate aircraft and be paid with your CPL and dont need any other aoc nonsense . I also believe you can get paid even with a ppl so long as your main duties are other things and you just happen to like to fly the corporate heli 
Just like leasing v charter the devil is in the detail . You must engineer it that the flight is private , no fare paying pax and then you even have the benefit of being able to use Battersea without floats and also another London helipad that most aoc,s are not allowed to use .......i know , but i didnt write the rules !!!
Just like leasing v charter the devil is in the detail . You must engineer it that the flight is private , no fare paying pax and then you even have the benefit of being able to use Battersea without floats and also another London helipad that most aoc,s are not allowed to use .......i know , but i didnt write the rules !!!
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A pilot with a JAA CPL(H) and the approriate typerating can fly a N-Reg for remuneration. The license must be issued by the Authority in the country where you will be flying. So you need a UK CAA issued licence to fly a N-Reg in the UK.
Last edited by HillerBee; 6th Jul 2011 at 05:36.