Another scam: selling a deregistered UK R44
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 199
Likes: 0
From: england
deals
I sold over 30 Robinsons last year, and several of these were to people who sent me a deposit - and then the whole balance - without having actually seen the aircraft!
So it isn't that unusual, or "stupid" as some people think.
I've done the same myself -- both when buying aircraft and also when dealing with Opmas before the Danish VAT route closed last year. Sending an entity in a foreign country you've never seen £200,000 always makes for a sleepless night!
We've never had to give a refund and we've had a lot of repeat business.
As for the Escrow route, if it's genuine the worst thing that happens is that the whole deal gets bogged down for weeks while paperwork is done by the lawyers.
But if it is not a genuine Escrow company then you still lose your money to the scammer.
In the case of G-CERS, the scammer sends out a contract from a lawyer purporting to be the Escrow agent which is very, very convincing and re-assuring. I've seen it, and it really looks like the real thing. And if you are based in Australia or the UK, it's difficult to tell whether a USA/Canadian based Escrow lawyer is the real thing or not.
This industry is small enough to check with people you know and trust about the credentials of someone that you want to deal with.
There has to be a lot of trust involved - on both sides of the buy/sell transaction - so choose your business associates with care and remember:
"people like to business with people they like".
hope this helps,
Big Ls
So it isn't that unusual, or "stupid" as some people think.
I've done the same myself -- both when buying aircraft and also when dealing with Opmas before the Danish VAT route closed last year. Sending an entity in a foreign country you've never seen £200,000 always makes for a sleepless night!
We've never had to give a refund and we've had a lot of repeat business.
As for the Escrow route, if it's genuine the worst thing that happens is that the whole deal gets bogged down for weeks while paperwork is done by the lawyers.
But if it is not a genuine Escrow company then you still lose your money to the scammer.
In the case of G-CERS, the scammer sends out a contract from a lawyer purporting to be the Escrow agent which is very, very convincing and re-assuring. I've seen it, and it really looks like the real thing. And if you are based in Australia or the UK, it's difficult to tell whether a USA/Canadian based Escrow lawyer is the real thing or not.
This industry is small enough to check with people you know and trust about the credentials of someone that you want to deal with.
There has to be a lot of trust involved - on both sides of the buy/sell transaction - so choose your business associates with care and remember:
"people like to business with people they like".
hope this helps,
Big Ls
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
From: UK
As for the Escrow route, if it's genuine the worst thing that happens is that the whole deal gets bogged down for weeks while paperwork is done by the lawyers.
But if it is not a genuine Escrow company then you still lose your money to the scammer.
But if it is not a genuine Escrow company then you still lose your money to the scammer.
Since 1 November 2009, with the introduction in the UK of the Payment Services Regulations, escrow services finally come under the auspices of the FSA and HMRC.
You will find genuine escrow companies at the FSA online register at www.fsa.gov.uk/register/psdFirmSearchForm.do (try searching there for 'escrow' as an example) and/or at https://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/msbregister/checkTerms.do).
These new online escrow services may offer exactly the service you are looking for, and cost only £3 or so all-in to use !
Beware, as you point out, there are many, many fraudulent escrow services which look real - even quoting UK addresses, phone numbers and fake FSA & HMRC registration numbers. They look extremely professional, and any money posted to them (or goods sent relying on them) will be lost forever. So only ever work with a firm on the FSA register and/or the HMRC register, which will be safe.
And there are strict time limits, so you are unlikely to get have your money unnecessarily tied up.
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
From: Canada
Scams helicopter sale
Hi, I am a Canadian, Engineer on helicopters.
Recently, I have been shopping for many clients who were looking forward to buy either a Bell 206 or a R44.
In to different trials to purchase an EC120B and an R44 in England, the deal was aborted at time on proceeding with contract and deposit. The seller was offering an aircraft for lower than market price. I would then offer less and the seller would accept right away. Easy and funny! After that, the deposit is requested from seller. He wanted a deposit directly in his company bank account, wich I refused.asked him to put a deposit in an Escrow account wich he chose.veified the bank infos and there was no answer on the phone number, the fax number does not exist and there was no information on escrow agent through google search. If you offer to come to UK with money for deposit, he will never accept. He wants a wire transfer. He argues that it is the procedure and has to be followed. I never sent my clients money! The guy's name is Dennis Lomani and the EC120 case was Michael Lannis.when he answers the phone, he always asks again``who do you want to speak with?`` and after, he asks for ``one moment please`` When he comes back to the phone, it is the same voice! I do not trust this man. It corresponds to all the previous cases in this forum!
Thanks to internet to permit to find all that out!
Recently, I have been shopping for many clients who were looking forward to buy either a Bell 206 or a R44.
In to different trials to purchase an EC120B and an R44 in England, the deal was aborted at time on proceeding with contract and deposit. The seller was offering an aircraft for lower than market price. I would then offer less and the seller would accept right away. Easy and funny! After that, the deposit is requested from seller. He wanted a deposit directly in his company bank account, wich I refused.asked him to put a deposit in an Escrow account wich he chose.veified the bank infos and there was no answer on the phone number, the fax number does not exist and there was no information on escrow agent through google search. If you offer to come to UK with money for deposit, he will never accept. He wants a wire transfer. He argues that it is the procedure and has to be followed. I never sent my clients money! The guy's name is Dennis Lomani and the EC120 case was Michael Lannis.when he answers the phone, he always asks again``who do you want to speak with?`` and after, he asks for ``one moment please`` When he comes back to the phone, it is the same voice! I do not trust this man. It corresponds to all the previous cases in this forum!
Thanks to internet to permit to find all that out!
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
From: UK
I've just discovered that my aircraft has been put up for sale at a juicy price on various sites with a set of details and photos from G-INFO and a bit of extra inventiveness as far as the spec goes. It even has my full name and address from the CAA site, but a bogus pair of phone numbers that connect you to what appears to be a Nigerian gentleman who doesn't seem to know much about the aircraft. I'm afraid it appears at least one party from brazil has fronted a deposit, only to be told that I crashed it yesterday! So no aircraft, and I expect no deposit.
Just a warning. I know a lot of dealing is done on trust - I did the same when I bought the aircraft, but it's a case of "if it sounds too good to be true......". I've emailed all the sites I can find asking to have the ad taken down. I can't help wondering why the CAA make the info so readily available. I can't get access to the DVLA records for car details, why can I look up aircraft data?
Just a warning. I know a lot of dealing is done on trust - I did the same when I bought the aircraft, but it's a case of "if it sounds too good to be true......". I've emailed all the sites I can find asking to have the ad taken down. I can't help wondering why the CAA make the info so readily available. I can't get access to the DVLA records for car details, why can I look up aircraft data?
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 645
Likes: 0
From: Center of the Universe
I wouldn't pay a deposit of any sort prior to looking at a car, house or motorbike. Why should an aircraft be different?
and then the whole balance - without having actually seen the aircraft!
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,022
Likes: 2
From: In the air with luck
Welcome to the 419 Eater: Scam Tracker
nuf said SM
nuf said SM
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
From: out there somewhere
escrow
Good advice and good explanation, but not sure that the escrow company can de register the aircraft, need to be careful if it is changing countries as you dont want to de register without export Cof A.....
Been a while since i have done it but export Cof A was always very important part of process, never the less you are spot on about escrow!!
KM
Been a while since i have done it but export Cof A was always very important part of process, never the less you are spot on about escrow!!
KM
Guest
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 191
Likes: 0
From: UK
*** heli sales scam alert ***
SCF Limited | Home | Turbo Props | Used Helicopter | Jet Sales
this company is offering helicopters for sale. all looks very convincing. but i just spoke to the director of the company and he assures me he is nothing to do with helicopters and someone is operating a scam website and using his name etc. the police are aware.
this company is offering helicopters for sale. all looks very convincing. but i just spoke to the director of the company and he assures me he is nothing to do with helicopters and someone is operating a scam website and using his name etc. the police are aware.
Last edited by PPRuNeUser94616; 14th May 2011 at 19:00.
:
scf limited
Joined: Jan 2003
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 1,361
Likes: 1
From: Near the bottom
A chum of mine pointed me at this website as there was an aircraft being advertised that he knew would be of interest to me. When I contacted the owner (known mutually to my chum and I), I learned that although the seller's address seemed legit, the spec was completely ficticious and the asking price was 25% less than book!
There seems to be no way of contacting those responsible for the site, so maybe the whole site is a scam
"If it seems to good to be true, then it probably is...".
There seems to be no way of contacting those responsible for the site, so maybe the whole site is a scam
"If it seems to good to be true, then it probably is...".
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 472
Likes: 0
From: South of the North Pole
I checked publicly available information at Companies House, and the directors of SCF Ltd are "Simon William Kenrick FRITH" and "Susan Claire FRITH". Both have 50 shares and both give the Market Harborough address on SCF's website as their residence.
So, sfrith, how do you expect us (on your first post on this forum) to believe you visited SCF's hangar outside the UK to pick up a helicopter???? Oh, and while I'm asking questions, have you bought a present for your wife's birthday next Friday yet?
Perhaps it's your posting that is a mistake??
Caveat emptor
So, sfrith, how do you expect us (on your first post on this forum) to believe you visited SCF's hangar outside the UK to pick up a helicopter???? Oh, and while I'm asking questions, have you bought a present for your wife's birthday next Friday yet?
Perhaps it's your posting that is a mistake??
Caveat emptor
Guest
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 191
Likes: 0
From: UK
I spoke to the REAL Simon Frith on the telephone at his home, and asked him about the helis for sale, he said his business (SCF) is nothing to do with helicopters and someone is using his company name, and details to run this scam.
He said the police have been informed, and the police also called me a few days later to talk to me about this scam, so there is no mistake, SCF do NOT sell helicopters, some dodgy bloke with premium rate phone number runs that website. He will send you forged aircraft documents and ask for a "pre-inspection" payment, and then disappear.
A friend of mind is looking for an R44 (this is how I got involved in this, he asked me for advice) and he has told me most helicopter adverts these days that look like a good price are scams, and if they have a 0703 0704 phone number they are DEFINITELY a scam.
You have been warned.
The police said to me that if I came across any other scams or any other infotmation, to call them. Steve Moffitt, G.A. Officer, Warwick Police, tel 01926 415000 x 5277 The police said these scammers are hard to track down as the websites are often registered/hosted abroad and hard to shut down.
He said the police have been informed, and the police also called me a few days later to talk to me about this scam, so there is no mistake, SCF do NOT sell helicopters, some dodgy bloke with premium rate phone number runs that website. He will send you forged aircraft documents and ask for a "pre-inspection" payment, and then disappear.
A friend of mind is looking for an R44 (this is how I got involved in this, he asked me for advice) and he has told me most helicopter adverts these days that look like a good price are scams, and if they have a 0703 0704 phone number they are DEFINITELY a scam.
You have been warned.
The police said to me that if I came across any other scams or any other infotmation, to call them. Steve Moffitt, G.A. Officer, Warwick Police, tel 01926 415000 x 5277 The police said these scammers are hard to track down as the websites are often registered/hosted abroad and hard to shut down.
Joined: Jan 2003
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 1,361
Likes: 1
From: Near the bottom
Anyone paying a"Pre-inspection" fee directly to an unverified 'seller' deserves to lose it!! If asked for any up-front payment, always use an escrow agent that you appoint.
hands_on - I'll report my case to Steve Moffitt too
hands_on - I'll report my case to Steve Moffitt too
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
From: UK
HO123 - I think we spoke yesterday. My aircraft has been "up for sale" for about 8 weeks now and it's getting to be a pain. It's hard to track down all the websites and get them to remove the adverts, and it's too easy to put the ads up again as there are a lot of sites offering free ads. I would repeat the advice to not even think of phoning anybody whose number starts 070. Also beware escrow agents appointed by the seller - it's your money, you should choose the agent.
Obviously the scammers read this board (Hi SFrith!) so perhaps I could pass on a personal message to go and @£%$ yourselves. CP
Obviously the scammers read this board (Hi SFrith!) so perhaps I could pass on a personal message to go and @£%$ yourselves. CP
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
From: UK
Unscrupulous websites offering aircraft for sale
Hi All
This topic may have been posted elsewhere and I did have a brief look over previous threads, but could not find anything. So please accept my apologies if I am covering old ground here.
My question is as follows. Do I, as a private owner, have any protection from websites which offer an (for an, substitute my) aircraft for sale when I know that is it not on the market.
Should we be pointing blame at the CAA for providing too much private information on their website via the search registration function. In my opinion, this is too easily available to all and sundry, and is not needed in such a public domain.
Any thoughts would be greatly welcomed
Best Regards
Rich B
This topic may have been posted elsewhere and I did have a brief look over previous threads, but could not find anything. So please accept my apologies if I am covering old ground here.
My question is as follows. Do I, as a private owner, have any protection from websites which offer an (for an, substitute my) aircraft for sale when I know that is it not on the market.
Should we be pointing blame at the CAA for providing too much private information on their website via the search registration function. In my opinion, this is too easily available to all and sundry, and is not needed in such a public domain.
Any thoughts would be greatly welcomed
Best Regards
Rich B
Guest
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 191
Likes: 0
From: UK
http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/451...cam-alert.html
I emailed the CAA twice over the last 2 months, asking why they list peoples personal details on G-INFO. They didn't even reply to me.
I emailed the CAA twice over the last 2 months, asking why they list peoples personal details on G-INFO. They didn't even reply to me.
Guest
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 191
Likes: 0
From: UK
Dear Sir,
Thank you for your e-mail regarding G-INFO.
As you may know, the CAA is required, by law, to maintain a Register of Aircraft in the UK, to include on it the names and addresses of all persons qualified to be the owners of the aircraft and to make the Register available to any person to inspect. Insofar as you are a person with legal or equitable title to the aircraft, the CAA therefore is required to include your name and address on the register and to make the register publicly available.
As it was a pre-existing piece of legislation requiring these details to be made public it is not covered by the Data Protection Act.
The CA1 application form that you completed to register the aircraft states in the accompanying notes: 'The UK Register of Civil Aircraft is available to the public, including via the CAA website, and includes the names and addresses of registered owners of aircraft.'
It not possible to suppress names and address on G-INFO however we do not insist that you use your private residential address on your application to register but do recommend that you use the most appropriate correspondence address for the distribution of safety information. If you wish to change your address on your existing Certificate of Registration to an airfield, business or PO Box address please return it to us giving details of the new address and a new Certificate will be issued and the Register entry amended. There is no charge for the re-issue of a Certificate of Registration for a change of address.
Regards
Aircraft Registrar
Civil Aviation Authority
Tel: +44 (0)20 7453 6666
Fax: +44 (0)20 7453 6670
email: [email protected]
web: Aircraft Register | Safety Regulation
Thank you for your e-mail regarding G-INFO.
As you may know, the CAA is required, by law, to maintain a Register of Aircraft in the UK, to include on it the names and addresses of all persons qualified to be the owners of the aircraft and to make the Register available to any person to inspect. Insofar as you are a person with legal or equitable title to the aircraft, the CAA therefore is required to include your name and address on the register and to make the register publicly available.
As it was a pre-existing piece of legislation requiring these details to be made public it is not covered by the Data Protection Act.
The CA1 application form that you completed to register the aircraft states in the accompanying notes: 'The UK Register of Civil Aircraft is available to the public, including via the CAA website, and includes the names and addresses of registered owners of aircraft.'
It not possible to suppress names and address on G-INFO however we do not insist that you use your private residential address on your application to register but do recommend that you use the most appropriate correspondence address for the distribution of safety information. If you wish to change your address on your existing Certificate of Registration to an airfield, business or PO Box address please return it to us giving details of the new address and a new Certificate will be issued and the Register entry amended. There is no charge for the re-issue of a Certificate of Registration for a change of address.
Regards
Aircraft Registrar
Civil Aviation Authority
Tel: +44 (0)20 7453 6666
Fax: +44 (0)20 7453 6670
email: [email protected]
web: Aircraft Register | Safety Regulation