Safety pilot in light helicopter.
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Safety pilot in light helicopter.
Hello guys, I'm wondering if anyone can help with this. I am a qualified R22 and R44 private pilot and I was talking to a couple of friends about maybe doing some cross country flights together. I thought it would be a good idea for the pilot not flying the aircraft, ie. in the left hand seat, to have the controls in place should something happen.
I was told that unless you're a type rated instructor then the CAA won't allow this. I can kind of understand the logic (in case the pilot in the left hand seat decides to grab the controls during flight, possibly?) but if there is a qualified and rated pilot seated in the left hand seat would it not be reasonable idea for the controls to be in 'just in case'?
I wouldn't like to be sitting there with no controls in front of me, when the PIC has a massive coronary, thinking ''DAMN YOU CAA!''
Any thoughts?
CA
I was told that unless you're a type rated instructor then the CAA won't allow this. I can kind of understand the logic (in case the pilot in the left hand seat decides to grab the controls during flight, possibly?) but if there is a qualified and rated pilot seated in the left hand seat would it not be reasonable idea for the controls to be in 'just in case'?
I wouldn't like to be sitting there with no controls in front of me, when the PIC has a massive coronary, thinking ''DAMN YOU CAA!''
Any thoughts?
CA
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Also the POH states that both these aircraft should be flown from the right hand seat - likely invalidates the insurance if not.
Cheers
Whirls
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POH states dual controls can be installed if a rated (helicopter, not type) pilot is in the seat.
Doubt the insurance company would have a go at you if you saved their aircraft because the PIC had a heart attack and you landed safely from the non-PIC seat, though stranger things have happened.
Some posts regarding the insurance issues in the AAIB thread here.
Doubt the insurance company would have a go at you if you saved their aircraft because the PIC had a heart attack and you landed safely from the non-PIC seat, though stranger things have happened.
Some posts regarding the insurance issues in the AAIB thread here.
In the limitations section of the RFM it says
My emboldening of the one above, which if you are not solo it would seem does not apply (depends how you define solo, to me its if on your own).
Again in the limitations section,
If you have two and they are both rated then you have more than satifsfied this one.
In the normal procedures section it says
This causes consternation in some JAA / UK places as to be a rated helicopter pilot here (UK) requires a type rating, but to be rated where it was built (and the manual was written) requires you to have a helicopter pilots licence.
If you plan to fly from the left it is worth getting some familiarisation training but I cannot recall where anything in the UK rules says you can't and the RFM doesn't say you can't if there are two of you.
From an additional safety point of view , in the circumstances you describe its a no brainer, just don't let it turn into an accident with someone knocking the controls that are not usually there or hopping out rotors running and opening the left side throttle and overspeeding the engine / rotors.
Solo flight from right seat only.
Again in the limitations section,
Minimum crew is one pilot.
In the normal procedures section it says
Caution
For helicopters with removable controls, remove left seat controls if person in that seat is not a rated helicopter pilot.
For helicopters with removable controls, remove left seat controls if person in that seat is not a rated helicopter pilot.
If you plan to fly from the left it is worth getting some familiarisation training but I cannot recall where anything in the UK rules says you can't and the RFM doesn't say you can't if there are two of you.
From an additional safety point of view , in the circumstances you describe its a no brainer, just don't let it turn into an accident with someone knocking the controls that are not usually there or hopping out rotors running and opening the left side throttle and overspeeding the engine / rotors.
Last edited by VeeAny; 17th Apr 2010 at 04:51.
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Thanks for the replies, the reason I ask is it was actually a very experienced examiner (to not believe what he says is true is tantamount to blasphemy) who said that you can't fly the helicopter fom the left seat unless your an instructor on that type of machine. (I do mean when there is another type rated and qualified pilot in the right seat.)
I know it's time that can't be logged but it's more the fact that he says even if your a rated and qualified pilot but not an instructor, when flying in the left seat, you must remove the dual controls before flight.
Maybe Phil Croucher could add his thoughts on this one cause I really don't get it although what VeeAny says makes plenty of sense. A slightly grey area. Sorry for the thread, it's just one thing that's got me a-pondering.
I know it's time that can't be logged but it's more the fact that he says even if your a rated and qualified pilot but not an instructor, when flying in the left seat, you must remove the dual controls before flight.
Maybe Phil Croucher could add his thoughts on this one cause I really don't get it although what VeeAny says makes plenty of sense. A slightly grey area. Sorry for the thread, it's just one thing that's got me a-pondering.
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chopper al
you do need to stop refering to the right seat or left seat as the designated pilots seat
some helicopters use the left seat for the designated pilot and some use the right
you do need to stop refering to the right seat or left seat as the designated pilots seat
some helicopters use the left seat for the designated pilot and some use the right
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Just go ahead and put the controls in and get another helicopter pilot to sit in the other seat and go have fun on your cross country. I wouldn't worry about it too much!
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In the US you need a sfar73 endorsment to fly the R22 or R44 (type specific) and it actually requires 10 hours of training, so more than the JAA typerating.
It says nowhere in the POH that the aircraft can't be flown from the left seat (if not solo)
You wouldn't be a safety pilot without the controls, but just a mere passenger.
It says nowhere in the POH that the aircraft can't be flown from the left seat (if not solo)
You wouldn't be a safety pilot without the controls, but just a mere passenger.
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I am guessing there are a couple of things getting mixed up here and they have been mentioned.
1. You cannot log time if you are not flying the machine unless you are an instructor.
2. You can be in the left seat (robbo) and log time...just cant solo from there...cause it gets interesting when you pick it up
3. If your passenger is rated on the R44 (UK) and/or have the SFAR 73 (USA) then you can leave the controls in. As I understand it ..its a RFM recommendation to prevent interference with the controls with a non pilot.
I am guessing that the examiner MAY have been referring to the ability of a non instructor to log time...but hey...I wasn't there and may be totally off the mark here.
IC
1. You cannot log time if you are not flying the machine unless you are an instructor.
2. You can be in the left seat (robbo) and log time...just cant solo from there...cause it gets interesting when you pick it up
3. If your passenger is rated on the R44 (UK) and/or have the SFAR 73 (USA) then you can leave the controls in. As I understand it ..its a RFM recommendation to prevent interference with the controls with a non pilot.
I am guessing that the examiner MAY have been referring to the ability of a non instructor to log time...but hey...I wasn't there and may be totally off the mark here.
IC
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.
or even disastrous, that is when the discussions with CAA and your insurance will become "interesting"
wrt the initial query, the most important thing to remember is that you must determine who is going to be steering it, at all times.
The old, 'but - i thought you had it bit' has destroyed many good helicopters.
that may be what your examiner was referring to , as it is an 'interesting' concept in the relatively inexperienced and imo the non qualified.
unless the other pilot is anything over 65, the chance of a mid flight coronary is rather an immature argument. If you are that worried put him in the other non command side.
cheers tet
..cause it gets interesting when you pick it up 
wrt the initial query, the most important thing to remember is that you must determine who is going to be steering it, at all times.
The old, 'but - i thought you had it bit' has destroyed many good helicopters.
that may be what your examiner was referring to , as it is an 'interesting' concept in the relatively inexperienced and imo the non qualified.
unless the other pilot is anything over 65, the chance of a mid flight coronary is rather an immature argument. If you are that worried put him in the other non command side.
cheers tet
Last edited by topendtorque; 18th Apr 2010 at 03:58. Reason: change mistake
Anecdotal evidence, I think I've trotted this one out before.
Leaving airport in the North, my helicopter duals in, with a guy who was hiring it while his (or the one he usually hired and kept at or near home) was being serviced.
He was to drop me off at home (or near to home) and carry on to his place. about 10 mins into trip he stops responding to radio calls, goes quiet and effectively collasped in his seat, I took control turned us around (water beneath us, so I could not just land and try to deal with him) and headed for the shore line, he wakes up and I think (cannot be certain) wants to carry on with the trip either straight away or after a short rest.
Needless to say I said no, took us back our point of origin and packed him off to see his doctor (don't know if he did) and would not let him use my aircraft until satisfied has was OK, I don't believe he ever flew it again. If he did it was because the school hired it to him without my knowledge.
I think he MAY have gone on to become an instructor , but don't remember hearing his name in the last few years.
No duals , I may have been able to fly it back using the cyclic center stick and collective from his side but it would have been very untidy.
Leaving airport in the North, my helicopter duals in, with a guy who was hiring it while his (or the one he usually hired and kept at or near home) was being serviced.
He was to drop me off at home (or near to home) and carry on to his place. about 10 mins into trip he stops responding to radio calls, goes quiet and effectively collasped in his seat, I took control turned us around (water beneath us, so I could not just land and try to deal with him) and headed for the shore line, he wakes up and I think (cannot be certain) wants to carry on with the trip either straight away or after a short rest.
Needless to say I said no, took us back our point of origin and packed him off to see his doctor (don't know if he did) and would not let him use my aircraft until satisfied has was OK, I don't believe he ever flew it again. If he did it was because the school hired it to him without my knowledge.
I think he MAY have gone on to become an instructor , but don't remember hearing his name in the last few years.
No duals , I may have been able to fly it back using the cyclic center stick and collective from his side but it would have been very untidy.
Last edited by VeeAny; 18th Apr 2010 at 21:48.
