Robinson: Greatest Helicopter of all time
Blah Robinson's yetch,
Fast - yes
Looks - damn ugly, butt ugly in fact
Stability - hopeless
Safety - what safety? killed more men than any other machines, now thats impressive, flimsy fragile airframe, that's what it is.
Reliability - look at the blade de-laminations, air-frame failures etc. reliable NOT
Price - cheep & very nasty
Looks - yep UGLY, didn't I just stay that? OK I say again F'N UGLY
Comfort - crappy cramped child like seating,
Controls - awkward bogus controls
Glad I don't fly one, once the low hour pilots who worship the Robinson false God step into a real Helicopter then they too will see the light & not want to look back into the eyes of hell.
Robinson - RIP
Fast - yes
Looks - damn ugly, butt ugly in fact
Stability - hopeless
Safety - what safety? killed more men than any other machines, now thats impressive, flimsy fragile airframe, that's what it is.
Reliability - look at the blade de-laminations, air-frame failures etc. reliable NOT
Price - cheep & very nasty
Looks - yep UGLY, didn't I just stay that? OK I say again F'N UGLY
Comfort - crappy cramped child like seating,
Controls - awkward bogus controls
Glad I don't fly one, once the low hour pilots who worship the Robinson false God step into a real Helicopter then they too will see the light & not want to look back into the eyes of hell.
Robinson - RIP
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
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contributed more to the helicopter industry than any one else I can think of.
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Very clever bit of thinking there Night Owl. you were bound to get some responses rather than be left on the wood heap of despair.
Now I've only flown these "R" things for, oh about eighteen years, and due to my very strong preferences elswhere, no I don't have any more than about 9K hours in them. I now fly them because I have to.
With great respect, 'the greatest helicopter', that's BS and total rubbish.
There is one very good thing about them that others could have and many nowadays spend heaps in designing to try to emulate. That is the way the critical instruments that are required to be scanned, are right there, in the edge of your eyeline as you you go past the panel on the peretual scan for cattle, more cattle and more again.
But great? after a long day, when I have to drag myself to the fence to stand upright, then quaff iunnumerable 'relaxants' to ease my bloody neck, well i'll give you a tip.
Use them for an end, but learn how to fly properly where it is easier and perhaps better to do so and move on.
M, i dips me fedora to a certain 61, 205, but mostly a 47.
Apart from that I am quite happy to go free to air to point out techniques that I am well practised in, that may save or help others.
cheers tet
Now I've only flown these "R" things for, oh about eighteen years, and due to my very strong preferences elswhere, no I don't have any more than about 9K hours in them. I now fly them because I have to.
With great respect, 'the greatest helicopter', that's BS and total rubbish.
There is one very good thing about them that others could have and many nowadays spend heaps in designing to try to emulate. That is the way the critical instruments that are required to be scanned, are right there, in the edge of your eyeline as you you go past the panel on the peretual scan for cattle, more cattle and more again.
But great? after a long day, when I have to drag myself to the fence to stand upright, then quaff iunnumerable 'relaxants' to ease my bloody neck, well i'll give you a tip.
Use them for an end, but learn how to fly properly where it is easier and perhaps better to do so and move on.
M, i dips me fedora to a certain 61, 205, but mostly a 47.
Apart from that I am quite happy to go free to air to point out techniques that I am well practised in, that may save or help others.
cheers tet
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oh dear.......
this is turning into yet another Robbie bashing thread.
It's so unecessary.
We are all entitled to our opinions and preferences, so why not leave it at that?
For some, the Robinson range of helicopters is horrid, for a whole number of reasons. Very little is going to change their minds.
For others, the Robinson range of helicopters are the best machines there are, for a whole number of reasons. Very little is going to change their minds.
For everyone else, start with the facts.
The statistics on numbers sold, number of accidents by hours flown, number of fatalities, number of pilots who trained in a Robinson are available to those who are interested.
I for one would like to know how many current helicopter pilots there are now compared to how many there were in 1975, so if anyone knows please post the answer.
And if you believe that helicopter flying should be more than the preserve of those paid to learn by me, the tax payer, and of those who are millionaires, then the Robinson range of helicopters has opened up the skies to thousands of pilots who otherwise would be grounded.
Big Ls.
It's so unecessary.
We are all entitled to our opinions and preferences, so why not leave it at that?
For some, the Robinson range of helicopters is horrid, for a whole number of reasons. Very little is going to change their minds.
For others, the Robinson range of helicopters are the best machines there are, for a whole number of reasons. Very little is going to change their minds.
For everyone else, start with the facts.
The statistics on numbers sold, number of accidents by hours flown, number of fatalities, number of pilots who trained in a Robinson are available to those who are interested.
I for one would like to know how many current helicopter pilots there are now compared to how many there were in 1975, so if anyone knows please post the answer.
And if you believe that helicopter flying should be more than the preserve of those paid to learn by me, the tax payer, and of those who are millionaires, then the Robinson range of helicopters has opened up the skies to thousands of pilots who otherwise would be grounded.
Big Ls.
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Maybe the Robbo should be the best, I learnt on a 44, then purchased a Bell-47, so it got me into flying. I would look at it like this, most people learn to drive in a cheap car, once they pass then they strive for the Aston Martin.
I know that they are cheap, unstable etc. etc. but I would not have got into flying if I had not chartered one to take me somewhere and gotten the bug...
I'll get my coat...
Kev.
I know that they are cheap, unstable etc. etc. but I would not have got into flying if I had not chartered one to take me somewhere and gotten the bug...
I'll get my coat...
Kev.
For the ones with time enough, using the Ntsb's accident database will give you an idea of the numbers of accidents and also the prelim/factual reports.(ie. the causes)
Just as an example, I did a quick search on fatal accidents from 01.01.1980 to date on the Bell 206 series came up with 241 records and for Robinson 202 records. I don't have time to total up all the fatalities, so the ones interessted can do and come up with their own conclusion.
I don't say that this means the 206 is worse than the Robbiefamily, as you must take all factors into considerations to come up with a conclusion.
My experience, is that the people that bashes the diffrent helicopters (in this case the Robbies) usually don't have experience in them, and therefore I couldn't care less what they may have as an opinion.
Just as an example, I did a quick search on fatal accidents from 01.01.1980 to date on the Bell 206 series came up with 241 records and for Robinson 202 records. I don't have time to total up all the fatalities, so the ones interessted can do and come up with their own conclusion.
I don't say that this means the 206 is worse than the Robbiefamily, as you must take all factors into considerations to come up with a conclusion.
My experience, is that the people that bashes the diffrent helicopters (in this case the Robbies) usually don't have experience in them, and therefore I couldn't care less what they may have as an opinion.
The statistics don't show the true nature of the work being done, also most stats are adjusted for their total numbers.
Nubian I have done just around 120 hours in each the 22 & 44 as well as Instructing in both those machines so can honestly say YES they are crap.
I have lost 2 Pilot friends to Robbie crashes & my LAME friend once pointed out just how flimsy the sub-standard air-frame really is, hence the crash survivability is frighteningly low. I had another friend an ATP(H) & Examiner have a 44 blade de-bond in flight at around 400 hours but it was at the bottom of an auto & 'thank God' they both survived. There is at least one other fatal being investigated in Australia right now due to an in-flight break up most likely caused by yet another de-bonding (surprise, surprise) well done Frank You can be proud of Your accident to death rate, the worst in Rotory history.
I did my first 50 hours of training in a 47 till my Instructor passed away due cancer, then finished my CPL on a R22std. Not surprisingly I learnt more in the 47 because at the slower pace one is able to learn & actually absorb so hence replicate exactly the task at hand, with the R22 the Instructor is rarely game to take his hands of the end of any emergency & does a lot of tidying up albeit unconsciously for the unsuspecting student. So less REAL learning for the student.
Give me a Squirrel any day, You can really do work in that sweet baby or a 214 umfff
Nubian I have done just around 120 hours in each the 22 & 44 as well as Instructing in both those machines so can honestly say YES they are crap.
I have lost 2 Pilot friends to Robbie crashes & my LAME friend once pointed out just how flimsy the sub-standard air-frame really is, hence the crash survivability is frighteningly low. I had another friend an ATP(H) & Examiner have a 44 blade de-bond in flight at around 400 hours but it was at the bottom of an auto & 'thank God' they both survived. There is at least one other fatal being investigated in Australia right now due to an in-flight break up most likely caused by yet another de-bonding (surprise, surprise) well done Frank You can be proud of Your accident to death rate, the worst in Rotory history.
I did my first 50 hours of training in a 47 till my Instructor passed away due cancer, then finished my CPL on a R22std. Not surprisingly I learnt more in the 47 because at the slower pace one is able to learn & actually absorb so hence replicate exactly the task at hand, with the R22 the Instructor is rarely game to take his hands of the end of any emergency & does a lot of tidying up albeit unconsciously for the unsuspecting student. So less REAL learning for the student.
Give me a Squirrel any day, You can really do work in that sweet baby or a 214 umfff
Last edited by Vertical Freedom; 17th Feb 2010 at 00:08.
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Vertical Freedom
Blimy, VF, I wish I had your level of confidence to damn a particular type of helicopter with such venom after just 120 hours TT on type.
And I find it offensive for you to be so personal about a designer and constructor of helicopters. Shame on you.
Big Ls.
And I find it offensive for you to be so personal about a designer and constructor of helicopters. Shame on you.
Big Ls.
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some years ago (10yrs) one of my flight instructors (previously flying gazelle, mi-8/17, bell206 ) retired, and started flying r44 for private owner.
when i asked him whats the difference between bell 206 and r44, he answered:
''bell is a helicopter''
when i asked him whats the difference between bell 206 and r44, he answered:
''bell is a helicopter''
Biggles99 please kindly mention my (so called) offence to Frank to my 2 dead exR22 Pilot friends; wives. I am sure they will chat with You much differently to me. With over 8,400 hours Rotory time in long-lining, mountain work, ag work, IF, Instructing & Examiner I feel I have a fair handle on a machine after 100 hours in each & can appraise it reasonably well thank You
Last edited by Vertical Freedom; 17th Feb 2010 at 00:05.
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Adam - Does that mean that you haven't thought of Sikorsky and Bell, to name but two?
But except perhaps for Bell, none of them spread them to the masses in the way Robinson did, made it grow. I mean Sikorsky has a rather patchy civilian helicopter history at best and still has. Bell laid the groundwork for the civilian market and Robinson expanded it beyond anything.
VF,
No, accident-statistics don't tell you
What I was referring to was the actual number of fatal accidents and if you read the causes in the diffrent reports, you'll find that mechanical failures is not the main cause of accidents.
Funny you mention the 350, as you trust it with your life you might read the thread with the ENG helicopter in Brazil. Now, that is the second ENG helicopter with t/r failure I have seen on film.
Yes, I too like the 350, but I do question the number of accidents/incidents involving the 350's hyd system and tail-rotor drive/control.
No, accident-statistics don't tell you
the true nature of the work being done
Funny you mention the 350, as you trust it with your life you might read the thread with the ENG helicopter in Brazil. Now, that is the second ENG helicopter with t/r failure I have seen on film.
Yes, I too like the 350, but I do question the number of accidents/incidents involving the 350's hyd system and tail-rotor drive/control.
Avoid imitations
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With the much awaited arrival of the R66 will RHC not become one of the prestigious manufacturers of all time??
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The greatest helicopter of all time?!? Pfffffffffffffffffff!!!!! NO NO NO NO NO!!!! LAMA SA315B - that is what I call a helicopter. Not that Mattel Messerschmitt.
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VF
VF, I respect your experience and I can sense that you are raw as hell about your dead friends.
I sympathise with you: I too have several dead friends, especially from my microlighting and hang-gliding days.
Some of these deaths were from designs that didn't have enough safety margin (these was in the 70s and early 80s) some of these deaths were caused by us pilots putting them together wrongly or modifying a design, but even then most accidents were from inexperience, flying in conditions beyond the ability of the pilot or just plain bad luck.
I don't think that any Robinson model has ever been grounded by the FAA or CAA, despite all the ADs and SBs that have been applied over the years. The only certified rotary aircraft I can recall being grounded in recent years was an Air Command Gyrocopter. If I'm wrong, I'm happy to be put right.
So this must say something about the Robinson? Never grounded, thousands sold, millions of hours flown, and hundreds of improvements made over the past 35 years.
One last thing: I completely agree with you about the AS350 -- its a great aircraft and very capable in all respects.
Big Ls.
I sympathise with you: I too have several dead friends, especially from my microlighting and hang-gliding days.
Some of these deaths were from designs that didn't have enough safety margin (these was in the 70s and early 80s) some of these deaths were caused by us pilots putting them together wrongly or modifying a design, but even then most accidents were from inexperience, flying in conditions beyond the ability of the pilot or just plain bad luck.
I don't think that any Robinson model has ever been grounded by the FAA or CAA, despite all the ADs and SBs that have been applied over the years. The only certified rotary aircraft I can recall being grounded in recent years was an Air Command Gyrocopter. If I'm wrong, I'm happy to be put right.
So this must say something about the Robinson? Never grounded, thousands sold, millions of hours flown, and hundreds of improvements made over the past 35 years.
One last thing: I completely agree with you about the AS350 -- its a great aircraft and very capable in all respects.
Big Ls.
B99
The NTSB tried to ground it but came up against some rather strong politics from The FAA. I have been told by friends in the States and I m not sure how true it is the R22 would not pass todays certification requirements. Mind you the S92 shouldnt have passed either and looked what happened to its gearbox due to Skiorksy finding a way round the certification
The NTSB tried to ground it but came up against some rather strong politics from The FAA. I have been told by friends in the States and I m not sure how true it is the R22 would not pass todays certification requirements. Mind you the S92 shouldnt have passed either and looked what happened to its gearbox due to Skiorksy finding a way round the certification
Avoid imitations
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birddog,
The old Reliant Regal was, and is, loved by some (bearing in mind that they were designed to be driven by folks who didn't have a car drivers' licence or couldn't afford a real car).
But prestigious?
When parked in the street they regularly get tipped over by "appreciative" locals on their way back from the pub; that is, the ones not already tipped over accidentally by over-enthusiastic driving.
The old Reliant Regal was, and is, loved by some (bearing in mind that they were designed to be driven by folks who didn't have a car drivers' licence or couldn't afford a real car).
But prestigious?
When parked in the street they regularly get tipped over by "appreciative" locals on their way back from the pub; that is, the ones not already tipped over accidentally by over-enthusiastic driving.
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Perspective please, guys.
As an enthusiastic R44 owner I would be the first to agree that even given its superb commercial success, the R44 can’t be described in any sense as the greatest helicopter. As a former B47 owner (hence my old username..) I replaced that glorious machine with an R44. Why? Because a 47 is not a method of transport for getting you any distance. A sniff of a headwind often meant you were battling with a 40kt groundspeed!
Best helicopter? Best for what purpose? That’s as pointless as arguing a Range Rover is better than a Ferrari 430. Depends what you want to do with it.
Frank is a genius for what he has achieved in producing the best selling machine that enables people like me, who pay their own bills, to fly. Those who sneer and are flying turbines at other people’s expense really miss the point and frankly the Robbie bashing from that quarter is a boring broken record. If it’s your own money you get the best you can afford and for most of us that’s a piston machine with four seats that gets you there at 110kts and safely.
The R44 has an excellent safety record re. total fleet hours flown. Yes it’s built to be light so can be easily insulted as ‘flimsy’. Good aviation design is not wasting fuel on weight. Are you suggesting Frank should have made it heavier (slower and thirstier) to make you feel happier with more metal around you because you’re used to a turbine with three times the horsepower? Chalk and cheese my friends. To see how far light helicopter design has come in forty years, compare my old B47 with the R44 – similar horsepower, same fuel consumption, half the speed and fewer seats. For its time the 47 was a fabulous machine, but is incredibly inefficient compared to the 44’s design. Most fatalities are CFIT, weather and wires, so being flimsy by comparison to a heavier turbine isn’t going to make any difference to most fatal accidents.
Yes, of course I’d prefer a B2, but Frank’s genius with the 44 means I can afford to leave the ground.
As an enthusiastic R44 owner I would be the first to agree that even given its superb commercial success, the R44 can’t be described in any sense as the greatest helicopter. As a former B47 owner (hence my old username..) I replaced that glorious machine with an R44. Why? Because a 47 is not a method of transport for getting you any distance. A sniff of a headwind often meant you were battling with a 40kt groundspeed!
Best helicopter? Best for what purpose? That’s as pointless as arguing a Range Rover is better than a Ferrari 430. Depends what you want to do with it.
Frank is a genius for what he has achieved in producing the best selling machine that enables people like me, who pay their own bills, to fly. Those who sneer and are flying turbines at other people’s expense really miss the point and frankly the Robbie bashing from that quarter is a boring broken record. If it’s your own money you get the best you can afford and for most of us that’s a piston machine with four seats that gets you there at 110kts and safely.
The R44 has an excellent safety record re. total fleet hours flown. Yes it’s built to be light so can be easily insulted as ‘flimsy’. Good aviation design is not wasting fuel on weight. Are you suggesting Frank should have made it heavier (slower and thirstier) to make you feel happier with more metal around you because you’re used to a turbine with three times the horsepower? Chalk and cheese my friends. To see how far light helicopter design has come in forty years, compare my old B47 with the R44 – similar horsepower, same fuel consumption, half the speed and fewer seats. For its time the 47 was a fabulous machine, but is incredibly inefficient compared to the 44’s design. Most fatalities are CFIT, weather and wires, so being flimsy by comparison to a heavier turbine isn’t going to make any difference to most fatal accidents.
Yes, of course I’d prefer a B2, but Frank’s genius with the 44 means I can afford to leave the ground.