idiots with shotguns
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Bombdoctor: A hatton round is not a solid slug, Hatton is designed for breaching.
Here ya go taken from another source:
A less damaging ballistic breach needs to destroy either the latch and lock, or the hinges of the door, and the ideal choice for this is the shotgun. While in theory other firearms can be used, handguns are usually underpowered[4] and rifles are less effective than the shotgun and pose a far higher risk of ricochet and collateral injury.[3] Most shotgun ammunition can be used for breaching, though the risk of injury varies with type. Of the available shotgun ammunition, shotgun slugs pose the highest risk, as they will retain significant energy to cause lethal wounds well after they have penetrated the door. Buckshot is far safer, and birdshot even safer, as the multiple small projectiles disperse quickly after penetration, reducing the chances of causing a lethal wound.
Check out the new Mossberg and Remington breach barrels. There cool.
Nigel: I'd be very very impressed if you could drop a Partridge at 80 yards with any number bird shot! I've never seen anyone make a shot like that. And don't know anyone stupid enough to try either, should anyone manage to get a pellet drop on the thing you'd only hurt it, which is awfull.
If, as you so nicely put it, I stand at 100yards while you shoot a shotgun with birdshot at me with a fully closed choke no I wouldn't be that sore, you'd be aiming at such an angle it would come down from around 60-80 degress anyway. Much past 100 yards and it's like throwing sand at someone.
If we're out infront of a gun we stay at 120 yards which is pretty safe.
A federal 546 grain number 4 birdshot has 167 shots in it, meaning each pellet is only 3.2 grain, that gives up it's momentum VERY quickly!
It's not designed for penetration at any range other wise we wouldn't have the now dead bird for tea, it would be in bits....
A number 4 birdshot, shot from 3 yards is not accepted as being able to stop a human....
Your welcome to come down here and have ago on mine and i'll show you some ranges with different cartridges. Mines got a slugster smooth bore 24" fully open choke barrel and it won't take a pigeon vertically past 35yard MAX, and 45 yards from the shoulder to ground targets. 28" barrel choked and you can add another good 5 yards and a tighter spread. 100 yards, not a hope in hell. Pellets are on the deck.
Going back to the thread, the threat pilots face at least in the UK regarding game shooters IMO is minimal really, there on SGC shotguns and only firing birdshot. Only section 1 shotguns are allowed solid slug ammunition and hunters will be taking deer horizontally with these or targets, not firing upward.
You've probably got more chance of a ricochet from a .22lr bullet on your parked aircraft if anyones stupid enough to shoot near it!
Here ya go taken from another source:
A less damaging ballistic breach needs to destroy either the latch and lock, or the hinges of the door, and the ideal choice for this is the shotgun. While in theory other firearms can be used, handguns are usually underpowered[4] and rifles are less effective than the shotgun and pose a far higher risk of ricochet and collateral injury.[3] Most shotgun ammunition can be used for breaching, though the risk of injury varies with type. Of the available shotgun ammunition, shotgun slugs pose the highest risk, as they will retain significant energy to cause lethal wounds well after they have penetrated the door. Buckshot is far safer, and birdshot even safer, as the multiple small projectiles disperse quickly after penetration, reducing the chances of causing a lethal wound.
Check out the new Mossberg and Remington breach barrels. There cool.
Nigel: I'd be very very impressed if you could drop a Partridge at 80 yards with any number bird shot! I've never seen anyone make a shot like that. And don't know anyone stupid enough to try either, should anyone manage to get a pellet drop on the thing you'd only hurt it, which is awfull.
If, as you so nicely put it, I stand at 100yards while you shoot a shotgun with birdshot at me with a fully closed choke no I wouldn't be that sore, you'd be aiming at such an angle it would come down from around 60-80 degress anyway. Much past 100 yards and it's like throwing sand at someone.
If we're out infront of a gun we stay at 120 yards which is pretty safe.
A federal 546 grain number 4 birdshot has 167 shots in it, meaning each pellet is only 3.2 grain, that gives up it's momentum VERY quickly!
It's not designed for penetration at any range other wise we wouldn't have the now dead bird for tea, it would be in bits....
A number 4 birdshot, shot from 3 yards is not accepted as being able to stop a human....
Your welcome to come down here and have ago on mine and i'll show you some ranges with different cartridges. Mines got a slugster smooth bore 24" fully open choke barrel and it won't take a pigeon vertically past 35yard MAX, and 45 yards from the shoulder to ground targets. 28" barrel choked and you can add another good 5 yards and a tighter spread. 100 yards, not a hope in hell. Pellets are on the deck.
Going back to the thread, the threat pilots face at least in the UK regarding game shooters IMO is minimal really, there on SGC shotguns and only firing birdshot. Only section 1 shotguns are allowed solid slug ammunition and hunters will be taking deer horizontally with these or targets, not firing upward.
You've probably got more chance of a ricochet from a .22lr bullet on your parked aircraft if anyones stupid enough to shoot near it!
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I did see a goose taken in mid air at about 60yds
Over Sealand rifle range
With a .303 Lee Enfield, iron sights!
That did cause some trouble, though. Official investigation did not identify the shooter.
Over Sealand rifle range
With a .303 Lee Enfield, iron sights!
That did cause some trouble, though. Official investigation did not identify the shooter.
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....A hatton round is not a solid slug....
What it is however, is frangiable, meaning it breaks up on impact, but after dissipating the KE - thus making it safer for those sat behind the door.
But, I can guarantee....... it's solid
A number 4 birdshot, shot from 3 yards is not accepted as being able to stop a human
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A hatton round may be a slug but it is not by any means a 'solid slug'.
A solid slug is a single lead or metal projectile either rifled or smooth.
A slug shot is any shot designed as a single projectile but the term solid slug is defined by the above. Even the home office reconise it as that.
You can have rubber slugs but it's still not a solid slug.
As John R81 has shot, even the older steel single ball's are classed as a solid slug(known as pumpkin balls). Not great accuracy but rifled solid slugs are pretty good through even a smooth bore barrel and incredible through a rifled shotgun barrel.
(By the way, I envy you for being able to compete in practical pistol, missed out on that)!
we still have practical shotgun though! (shooting solid slugs by the way)
Would of been amusing to see someone firing a .303 at flying birds!
Good gun, possibly the most uncomfortable thing I personally have ever fired though!
GSA, it probably would stop someone, but being defined by what the FBI class as able to stop a human attacker is another thing. They class that the minimum acceptable penetration should be 12 inches with 18 inches prefered.
Number 4 bid shot only produced 6.5 inch penetration.
Number 4 Birdshot:
Range: 3 yards
Shotgun: 18 inch barreled Remington 870 Marine Magnumn
Round: 12 gauge Remington Heavy Dove 1-1/8 oz #4 Birdshot
Gelatin: 9′x9′x19′ 10% ordinance gelatin block
Measured Average Permenant Cavity: 6.5 inches (16.5 cm)
Temporary Stretch Cavity: 0.0 to 6.0 inches (0.0 to 15.2 cm)
00 Buckshot:
Range: 3 yards
Shotgun: 18 inch barreled Remington 870 Marine Magnumn
Round: 12 gauge 2? Federal Classic 00 Buckshot (9 pellets)
Gelatin: 9′x9′x19′ 10% ordinance gelatin block
Measured Average Permanent Cavity Penetration: 22.3 inches (56.6cm) (3.4X further than #4 birdshot)
Bird shot should never be used for a home defense load, all bird shot loads lack both the momentum and penetration required to reliably stop a human attacker. This really shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone because bird shot is designed for lightweight game, if the pellets were capable of stopping a human it would devastate the small animal and not leave much to eat.
While the intentions of people who recommend bird shot are usually good they usually lack a fundamental understanding of terminal ballistics and unintentionally give horrible advice. They often site examples of bad guys being shot with bird shot breaking off an attack, the important thing to realize is that in almost all cases the attacker chose to stop the attack, he was not forced to stop.
Granted I wouldn't want any shot shot at me from 3 yards but the proof is there. Lots of myths about shotguns, to many Hollywood movies... You see them load a shell in to there shotguns and send someone flying the other side of the room missing limbs, absolute rubbish.
Show me a professional who successfully uses birdshot for human targets.
Bird shot is for birds not humans.
Buck shot is another story mind, this would be the choice in combat. And slug.
In the UK we don't have the same need for shotguns as home defense nor do we own them for that role, but many American gun specialist have looked into home defense loads with very clear results.
Either way, we have allowed the thread to go a bit off topic.
At least in the UK I wouldn't worry about shotgun shooters.
Compton in LA sounds like another story!
A solid slug is a single lead or metal projectile either rifled or smooth.
A slug shot is any shot designed as a single projectile but the term solid slug is defined by the above. Even the home office reconise it as that.
You can have rubber slugs but it's still not a solid slug.
As John R81 has shot, even the older steel single ball's are classed as a solid slug(known as pumpkin balls). Not great accuracy but rifled solid slugs are pretty good through even a smooth bore barrel and incredible through a rifled shotgun barrel.
(By the way, I envy you for being able to compete in practical pistol, missed out on that)!
we still have practical shotgun though! (shooting solid slugs by the way)Would of been amusing to see someone firing a .303 at flying birds!
Good gun, possibly the most uncomfortable thing I personally have ever fired though!
GSA, it probably would stop someone, but being defined by what the FBI class as able to stop a human attacker is another thing. They class that the minimum acceptable penetration should be 12 inches with 18 inches prefered.
Number 4 bid shot only produced 6.5 inch penetration.
Number 4 Birdshot:
Range: 3 yards
Shotgun: 18 inch barreled Remington 870 Marine Magnumn
Round: 12 gauge Remington Heavy Dove 1-1/8 oz #4 Birdshot
Gelatin: 9′x9′x19′ 10% ordinance gelatin block
Measured Average Permenant Cavity: 6.5 inches (16.5 cm)
Temporary Stretch Cavity: 0.0 to 6.0 inches (0.0 to 15.2 cm)
00 Buckshot:
Range: 3 yards
Shotgun: 18 inch barreled Remington 870 Marine Magnumn
Round: 12 gauge 2? Federal Classic 00 Buckshot (9 pellets)
Gelatin: 9′x9′x19′ 10% ordinance gelatin block
Measured Average Permanent Cavity Penetration: 22.3 inches (56.6cm) (3.4X further than #4 birdshot)
Bird shot should never be used for a home defense load, all bird shot loads lack both the momentum and penetration required to reliably stop a human attacker. This really shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone because bird shot is designed for lightweight game, if the pellets were capable of stopping a human it would devastate the small animal and not leave much to eat.
While the intentions of people who recommend bird shot are usually good they usually lack a fundamental understanding of terminal ballistics and unintentionally give horrible advice. They often site examples of bad guys being shot with bird shot breaking off an attack, the important thing to realize is that in almost all cases the attacker chose to stop the attack, he was not forced to stop.
Granted I wouldn't want any shot shot at me from 3 yards but the proof is there. Lots of myths about shotguns, to many Hollywood movies... You see them load a shell in to there shotguns and send someone flying the other side of the room missing limbs, absolute rubbish.
Show me a professional who successfully uses birdshot for human targets.
Bird shot is for birds not humans.
Buck shot is another story mind, this would be the choice in combat. And slug.
In the UK we don't have the same need for shotguns as home defense nor do we own them for that role, but many American gun specialist have looked into home defense loads with very clear results.
Either way, we have allowed the thread to go a bit off topic.
At least in the UK I wouldn't worry about shotgun shooters.
Compton in LA sounds like another story!
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....A hatton round may be a slug but it is not by any means a 'solid slug'....
A solid slug is a single lead or metal projectile
I tell you what R44-Pilot....here's a test for you.... Try firing a Hatton round down a fully choked shotgun barrel and I wager the results will tell you if it's solid or not
What do I know anyway.....Ammunition Technical Officer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
LMAO
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...A number 4 birdshot, shot from 3 yards is not accepted as being able to stop a human....
It's all in the definition R44-Pilot
I'd certainly be stopping if I got a No.4 to the chest from 3yds!! Then again....I'm a lover not a fighter
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You say it's all in the definition, which is exactly what i'm trying to tell you...
A solid slug is defined as a single metal shot be it lead, steel or copper, but a single projectile either a round ball or a rifled slug.
A hatton round is steel powder bound in wax so no it's not a solid slug, it's hatton round by definition. It is not a 'solid slug'.
So are the Home Office and firearm licencing agencies all wrong then? I should give the UKPSA a call and educate them then...
There are not many materials used for solid slug, there are various different types of single piece metals used.
There are many different materials used as slug shot yes as I stated, a rubber slug shot is a slug, but not defined as a solid slug etc...
And what would be the problem on shooting a hatton round down a choked barrel?
I'm unsure what to make of your last post.
"Says who",
Says the FBI who put considerable amounts of investigation in such things, which i'm sure filters down to most American Law Enforcements. It says it in my above post which I suggest you re-read.
"Define stop",
To quickly and effectively stop a human attacker permantely. Pretty simple really, not sure where toddlers come in but they certainly have no place on this partiular thread.
You cannot define a human by size as targets faced are all different and ever changing.
Whether the attacker be on 'crack' or not the chosen load is to put lights out on anyone as quickly and effectively as possible.
You say "I'd certainly be stopping if I got a NO.4 to the chest from 3 yards."
Yes as would I, said that in the previous post also... And what it does again say in my previous post: They often site examples of bad guys being shot with bird shot breaking off an attack, the important thing to realize is that in almost all cases the attacker chose to stop the attack, he was not forced to stop.
The attacker chose to stop the attack. This by definition is not what there looking for in a load. Lights out quick and effectively, i.e birdshot.
A solid slug is defined as a single metal shot be it lead, steel or copper, but a single projectile either a round ball or a rifled slug.
A hatton round is steel powder bound in wax so no it's not a solid slug, it's hatton round by definition. It is not a 'solid slug'.
So are the Home Office and firearm licencing agencies all wrong then? I should give the UKPSA a call and educate them then...
There are not many materials used for solid slug, there are various different types of single piece metals used.
There are many different materials used as slug shot yes as I stated, a rubber slug shot is a slug, but not defined as a solid slug etc...
And what would be the problem on shooting a hatton round down a choked barrel?
I'm unsure what to make of your last post.
"Says who",
Says the FBI who put considerable amounts of investigation in such things, which i'm sure filters down to most American Law Enforcements. It says it in my above post which I suggest you re-read.
"Define stop",
To quickly and effectively stop a human attacker permantely. Pretty simple really, not sure where toddlers come in but they certainly have no place on this partiular thread.
You cannot define a human by size as targets faced are all different and ever changing.
Whether the attacker be on 'crack' or not the chosen load is to put lights out on anyone as quickly and effectively as possible.
You say "I'd certainly be stopping if I got a NO.4 to the chest from 3 yards."
Yes as would I, said that in the previous post also... And what it does again say in my previous post: They often site examples of bad guys being shot with bird shot breaking off an attack, the important thing to realize is that in almost all cases the attacker chose to stop the attack, he was not forced to stop.
The attacker chose to stop the attack. This by definition is not what there looking for in a load. Lights out quick and effectively, i.e birdshot.
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Members of the Shotgun Shooting Fraternity in the UK are NOT allowed to have ammo ie Shotgun Cartridges with 1 slug, to have such ammo you must first hold a fire Arms Certificate.
I once altered two Alphmax 12g Cartridges and fitted each with a single stainless steel ball, crimped in and held with sealing wax, fired from a single barrel BSA with a true cylinder barrel, the target was a Morris 1000 Saloon, at 30yards the ball went straight through the boot, rear seats front seat dash board and exited the bull nose part of the bonnet , when fired from 45 yards the ball was captured by the dashboard,
No 4 game shot at 50 yards didnt penetrate the door panel, but at 20 yards it left a hole like a drunken woodpecker had been at it.
and finally
When I was much younger and during a spell of beating(game bird chasing)for our then prime minister Harold Macmillan whilst he was shooting at Pen-Y-Ghent in North Yorshire, he peppered three of us young beaters with No 5 Game shot at a distance of some 120 yards, it felt like hails stones hitting us, untill we took our Plastic waterproof tops off and found many small holes along with the corresponding shot dropping out from our wool jumpers, to wit the PM once aware of this incident gave us a White Fiver each for the shock he had caused us!
PeterR-B
Vfr
I once altered two Alphmax 12g Cartridges and fitted each with a single stainless steel ball, crimped in and held with sealing wax, fired from a single barrel BSA with a true cylinder barrel, the target was a Morris 1000 Saloon, at 30yards the ball went straight through the boot, rear seats front seat dash board and exited the bull nose part of the bonnet , when fired from 45 yards the ball was captured by the dashboard,
No 4 game shot at 50 yards didnt penetrate the door panel, but at 20 yards it left a hole like a drunken woodpecker had been at it.
and finally
When I was much younger and during a spell of beating(game bird chasing)for our then prime minister Harold Macmillan whilst he was shooting at Pen-Y-Ghent in North Yorshire, he peppered three of us young beaters with No 5 Game shot at a distance of some 120 yards, it felt like hails stones hitting us, untill we took our Plastic waterproof tops off and found many small holes along with the corresponding shot dropping out from our wool jumpers, to wit the PM once aware of this incident gave us a White Fiver each for the shock he had caused us!
PeterR-B
Vfr
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Well not had a responce from Bomb Doctor, another arm chair expert maybe.... I'll leave that one to rest...
I have a question though and to save starting another thread...
Scenario.
You fly into a gun and game type of show (private flight), see a rather nice shotgun or rifle at a very cheap for one day only price, can one transport it back in the helicopter? Or would you need to seek permission from the CAA for such thing?
It's easy enough to remove the bolt etc and one wouldn't need to buy ammunition on the day, just if you saw a bargain and didnt want to pay postage costs...
Just a complete scenario but had me wondering when a couple of heli's turned up at a show last year and been meaning to ask. We didn't fly in for this very reason. (didn't buy anything anyway but you never know).
I'll leave that one to rest...I have a question though and to save starting another thread...
Scenario.
You fly into a gun and game type of show (private flight), see a rather nice shotgun or rifle at a very cheap for one day only price, can one transport it back in the helicopter? Or would you need to seek permission from the CAA for such thing?
It's easy enough to remove the bolt etc and one wouldn't need to buy ammunition on the day, just if you saw a bargain and didnt want to pay postage costs...
Just a complete scenario but had me wondering when a couple of heli's turned up at a show last year and been meaning to ask. We didn't fly in for this very reason. (didn't buy anything anyway but you never know).
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Gun
Providing you have a valid shotgun certificate / firearms certificate, you should be able to transport it as if it were secured in the boot of your car.
You would need to have your license with you to make the purchase and the gun's details would be recorded on the license as normal. The dealer would have to complete a transfer document and you a receipt document which then get's faxed to the police authority (not sure if it is just one in the UK or regional).
If in doubt contact your local police authority and ask, but if it were me and I was travelling in the UK, then I would do it.
Taking it overseas is a different matter - Not all carriers have locked storage for firearms.
You would need to have your license with you to make the purchase and the gun's details would be recorded on the license as normal. The dealer would have to complete a transfer document and you a receipt document which then get's faxed to the police authority (not sure if it is just one in the UK or regional).
If in doubt contact your local police authority and ask, but if it were me and I was travelling in the UK, then I would do it.
Taking it overseas is a different matter - Not all carriers have locked storage for firearms.
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Well not had a responce(sic) from Bomb Doctor, another arm chair expert maybe....
I am most definitely sitting in an armchair these days... having retired from being an ATO in 2003. Does that make me an armchair expert in ammunition? Some people might say so....... but I was never one to blow their own trumpet.
But - in answer to your question: You can fire SOME solid rounds through SOME authorised chokes...all depends on the type of round/choke & shotgun. Unfortunately you can't fire Hatton type rounds through choked barrels. You'd also be wise to use a nitro proofed shotgun due to the higher pressures associated with these types of round.
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Cheers Silverback.
Yes the buying process is all the same it was just the transport of firearms I was wondering about...
I have a lockable hardcase for mine so may give the local firearms dept and CAA a call before the next shows.
Ahh bomb doctor returns
Well I politely disagree that hatton round cannot be fired through a choke...
It's not the forum for such discussions and we have hijacked this thread enough, PM if you want to and I'll disguss it with you there and show you that you can in fact fire a hatton round through a choke, your choice.
We'll agree to disagree.
Yes the buying process is all the same it was just the transport of firearms I was wondering about...
I have a lockable hardcase for mine so may give the local firearms dept and CAA a call before the next shows.
Ahh bomb doctor returns
Well I politely disagree that hatton round cannot be fired through a choke...
It's not the forum for such discussions and we have hijacked this thread enough, PM if you want to and I'll disguss it with you there and show you that you can in fact fire a hatton round through a choke, your choice.
We'll agree to disagree.
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It depends...
Chaps, if you check out the US firearms forums, you will see suggestion that you can use these rounds with chokes - though I would buy a specific tool for the job.
Taken from one forum:
"This frangible projectile is made of compressed, powdered copper and tin and was developed as an alternative to a battering ram. The door breacher produces an effective means of removing locks and hinges from doors constructed of up to 16 gauge steel, while limiting the projection of hazardous debris and collateral damage on the other side of the door.
To be used with Improved Cylinder, Skeet or Cylinder Bore Chokes.
The breaching round is designed to defeat door locks and hinges. It is fired 4" to 8" from the target. At impact, the metal powder filled projectile cup disintigrates, dissipating its entire energy on the target.
Breaching rounds, often called Disintegrator or Hatton rounds, are designed to destroy door deadbolts, locks and hinges without risking lives by ricocheting or by flying on at lethal speed through the door, as traditional buckshot can. Breaching rounds may be used in a standard combat shotgun or riot shotgun, or in a specialized shotgun."
I won't be using them in my Kreighoff, but may opt for $200 pump action remington with a 'tactical choke' - designed specifically for breaching.
Now all I need is a door to blow the hinges off!
Returning to the orginal post...unlikely you will take out a chopper unless it's heading straight for you (closing distance) and you are using a somesort of lethal projectile (not birdshot), such as an RPG or a rifle (to shoot the pilot with) - then it would be deliberate rather than 'missing the pig'
Do they do a standard rotary cannon fitment for the EC120..or is that considered a 'minor mod'?
Taken from one forum:
"This frangible projectile is made of compressed, powdered copper and tin and was developed as an alternative to a battering ram. The door breacher produces an effective means of removing locks and hinges from doors constructed of up to 16 gauge steel, while limiting the projection of hazardous debris and collateral damage on the other side of the door.
To be used with Improved Cylinder, Skeet or Cylinder Bore Chokes.
The breaching round is designed to defeat door locks and hinges. It is fired 4" to 8" from the target. At impact, the metal powder filled projectile cup disintigrates, dissipating its entire energy on the target.
Breaching rounds, often called Disintegrator or Hatton rounds, are designed to destroy door deadbolts, locks and hinges without risking lives by ricocheting or by flying on at lethal speed through the door, as traditional buckshot can. Breaching rounds may be used in a standard combat shotgun or riot shotgun, or in a specialized shotgun."
I won't be using them in my Kreighoff, but may opt for $200 pump action remington with a 'tactical choke' - designed specifically for breaching.
Now all I need is a door to blow the hinges off!
Returning to the orginal post...unlikely you will take out a chopper unless it's heading straight for you (closing distance) and you are using a somesort of lethal projectile (not birdshot), such as an RPG or a rifle (to shoot the pilot with) - then it would be deliberate rather than 'missing the pig'
Do they do a standard rotary cannon fitment for the EC120..or is that considered a 'minor mod'?
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Exactly as I have been saying all the while Silverback I even suggested he looked at breaching barrels which have have a cyclinder choke...
Business MUST be good if pilots are buying Krieghoffs!
What credit-crunch....
Here ya go, go and treat yourself to this Action Target's New MATCH Tactical Breach Door™ Then send me an invite
I even suggested he looked at breaching barrels which have have a cyclinder choke... Business MUST be good if pilots are buying Krieghoffs!
What credit-crunch....Here ya go, go and treat yourself to this Action Target's New MATCH Tactical Breach Door™ Then send me an invite