MD - All Not Good in Mesa
diethelm: why?
LT is a banker (with a B)
and her sole purpose during this evolution was to asset strip the company and make a killing. It's stuck in a rut and she's struggling to turn it round. That's why she's now trying to offload it quickly to any buyer for any price.
Don't for one millisecond believe the temptress is actually interested in helicopters
Life's a bitch......and then you work for one
LT is a banker (with a B)
and her sole purpose during this evolution was to asset strip the company and make a killing. It's stuck in a rut and she's struggling to turn it round. That's why she's now trying to offload it quickly to any buyer for any price.Don't for one millisecond believe the temptress is actually interested in helicopters
Life's a bitch......and then you work for one
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Coupling:
I don't know her, never met her but I am in the same business as she is. If she simply wanted to strip it, she would have never put the money in without first running it through a chapter 11. In that scenario, the prior owners would have been much more marginalized, the past debt wiped out and the assets acquired at a fraction of the cost (think GM). That is what I would have done and was clearly the plan of all other interested parties.
My bet is that she thought she could make a killing without financially re-structuring it through BK but the capital structure she inherited, combined with what would objectively appear to be a lack of consistent competent management, has at best made it a bad deal. The structure of her deal made it clear from the beginning that she had to be in it for the long haul. The basis of her transaction made it impossible to simply "asset strip the company and make a killing."
I don't know if she is now trying to sell it or not but if she was out to make a quick buck, she would not still own it 5.5 years and 100 mil after her July 2005 acquisition.
You are correct in the fact that it is stuck in a rut and has not gotten any better since the Patriarch ownership, but all the rest of us who had interest, certainly would have been much tougher with respect to the terms of the original purchase. Absent a miracle of orders and good management, history will most likely show her assumptions were wrong, but she committed when the rest of the interested parties said no thanks on those terms.
Still love the product, and would love to see it thrive as with volume and great management, it could clearly be manufactured and supported at much lower costs.
I don't know her, never met her but I am in the same business as she is. If she simply wanted to strip it, she would have never put the money in without first running it through a chapter 11. In that scenario, the prior owners would have been much more marginalized, the past debt wiped out and the assets acquired at a fraction of the cost (think GM). That is what I would have done and was clearly the plan of all other interested parties.
My bet is that she thought she could make a killing without financially re-structuring it through BK but the capital structure she inherited, combined with what would objectively appear to be a lack of consistent competent management, has at best made it a bad deal. The structure of her deal made it clear from the beginning that she had to be in it for the long haul. The basis of her transaction made it impossible to simply "asset strip the company and make a killing."
I don't know if she is now trying to sell it or not but if she was out to make a quick buck, she would not still own it 5.5 years and 100 mil after her July 2005 acquisition.
You are correct in the fact that it is stuck in a rut and has not gotten any better since the Patriarch ownership, but all the rest of us who had interest, certainly would have been much tougher with respect to the terms of the original purchase. Absent a miracle of orders and good management, history will most likely show her assumptions were wrong, but she committed when the rest of the interested parties said no thanks on those terms.
Still love the product, and would love to see it thrive as with volume and great management, it could clearly be manufactured and supported at much lower costs.
The 902 is doomed. Its the illigitimate child of two uncaring parents: LT and Joep. It's part built all over the place and brought together somewhere else. There is a disconnect between the OEM and EASA QA. Parts are forever slipping through the airworthiness checks and measures (paperwork not quality). The beast itself is nothing revolutionary. Hiding the fan at the back inside the tail cone has in fact reduced its aerodynamic performance and increased its payload. It's still exposed to the idiosyncracies of the dreaded TR failure - so what was the point. [Unless of course you use the monotonous argument that it's safer to operate around in a confined space because the spinner is missing].
I for one actually see it now as looking tired and awkward. The 70's ergonomics in the cockpit layout (metalwork, not avionics), the busy rotor head, the agricutural body work.
Everything's against it. How many left in the UK now? Any future development? Any customers? Doomed, I say...they're all doomed Captain.
I for one actually see it now as looking tired and awkward. The 70's ergonomics in the cockpit layout (metalwork, not avionics), the busy rotor head, the agricutural body work.
Everything's against it. How many left in the UK now? Any future development? Any customers? Doomed, I say...they're all doomed Captain.
TC
It may be doomed but the UK EMS customer base still 'love' it and it is the next best thing to a BK117 without putting up with the [poor & ancient] maintenance requirements of the BK. And the high set tail rotor [and Fenestron to come?] negates the supposed advantage of Notar in that quarter.
The 902 is limping, but like many 'physically disadvantaged' objects [and humans] it remains endearing to [some of] its operators.
I guess it will be a long time in its death throes but the numbers will dwindle. It is unfortunately getting a bit like a Brantly B2... niche market ... and although she/they have improved some support aspects LT does not seem to have turned the corner relating to the types overall acceptability to a wider market. Meanwhile every day that passes without development of the basic airframe places the future closer to nil.
This seems not to be a wholly 902 issue, a view of the US police market would tend to suggest the demise of the 500/600 and 520 as well - subject to the possible fillip to be offered by the recent order for Little Birds from Saudi. That assumes that MD will even get the basic airframe order from Boeing.
The 'hot seller' 500 series is again losing out heavily to the 350 in the US police market. Most cite the old story of 'support' .... and that is in the face of supposed dire EC support!
It may be doomed but the UK EMS customer base still 'love' it and it is the next best thing to a BK117 without putting up with the [poor & ancient] maintenance requirements of the BK. And the high set tail rotor [and Fenestron to come?] negates the supposed advantage of Notar in that quarter.
The 902 is limping, but like many 'physically disadvantaged' objects [and humans] it remains endearing to [some of] its operators.
I guess it will be a long time in its death throes but the numbers will dwindle. It is unfortunately getting a bit like a Brantly B2... niche market ... and although she/they have improved some support aspects LT does not seem to have turned the corner relating to the types overall acceptability to a wider market. Meanwhile every day that passes without development of the basic airframe places the future closer to nil.
This seems not to be a wholly 902 issue, a view of the US police market would tend to suggest the demise of the 500/600 and 520 as well - subject to the possible fillip to be offered by the recent order for Little Birds from Saudi. That assumes that MD will even get the basic airframe order from Boeing.
The 'hot seller' 500 series is again losing out heavily to the 350 in the US police market. Most cite the old story of 'support' .... and that is in the face of supposed dire EC support!
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Absolute top notch machine..... Its the pilot's friend, it's just brilliant!!!!! One switch to turn it on and off, a torque meter that stops at 100% instead of some random figure and an instrument panel that dosen't tell you anything unless it gets concerned, just perfect.
As for landing site selection the NOTAR comes up thrumps every time. I'd have nightmares thinking about flying a machine with a tail rotor again.
As for landing site selection the NOTAR comes up thrumps every time. I'd have nightmares thinking about flying a machine with a tail rotor again.
How many left in the UK now?
Winchman - if it's a "top notch machine", why have Eurocopter just completed the 900th EC135, aimed roughly at the same markets. Is it just the revolving door that Ned refers to, or are there more things to point at, like pricing and product support, for example?
DeltaNg - no, Trinity House have NOT got theirs yet, it's not even registered with the CAA. Look out for G-COTH, previously an air ambulance in Saudi with the reg N3ND, and one time operated by Suffolk County Police, NY State.
The Trinity House contract was undertaken with another spare airframe but that super plan reportedly got a bit sticky when the brand new Lincs & Notts AA went sick.
Not sure what airframe is being used to service Trinity House but the dearth of these machines suggests that the old G-LNAA [due for a rebuild] may have been the one and of course having the previous owners rapping on the door asking for their old machine back because the new one was ill must have been at best embarassing just as the new contract commenced.
If even half of this rumour level information is true that cannot help along the cause of the 902 despite all the praise being heaped on this hapless aircraft in this thread. It works fine when it works but it seems it just isn't fit for purpose thanks to low numbers and inadequate back up resources [airframes and spares].
Hapless? Well the aircraft said to be due for use [eventually!] with the TH contract was in turn rejected by Suffolk County and [by Action Aviation default] the Saudi EMS [and others] ......
Not sure what airframe is being used to service Trinity House but the dearth of these machines suggests that the old G-LNAA [due for a rebuild] may have been the one and of course having the previous owners rapping on the door asking for their old machine back because the new one was ill must have been at best embarassing just as the new contract commenced.
If even half of this rumour level information is true that cannot help along the cause of the 902 despite all the praise being heaped on this hapless aircraft in this thread. It works fine when it works but it seems it just isn't fit for purpose thanks to low numbers and inadequate back up resources [airframes and spares].
Hapless? Well the aircraft said to be due for use [eventually!] with the TH contract was in turn rejected by Suffolk County and [by Action Aviation default] the Saudi EMS [and others] ......
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Helihub - Winchman is correct, it is a top-notch machine...from a piloting and paramedic viewpoint. Unfortunately the support etc is beyond our control.
And bear in mind that in spite of that lack of support, the West Yorkshire Police 902 has amassed over 12,600 flying hours, the Humberside machine 10,000+.
Even without proper support and development it leaves the 135 trailing as an emergency services machine, especially in the HEMS world.
Oh...IMHO of course
And bear in mind that in spite of that lack of support, the West Yorkshire Police 902 has amassed over 12,600 flying hours, the Humberside machine 10,000+.
Even without proper support and development it leaves the 135 trailing as an emergency services machine, especially in the HEMS world.
Oh...IMHO of course
I read in HeliData News last weeek that the ex Action Aviation MD902 (now G-COTH) is indeed the Trinity machine.Apparently it arrived at Staverton at beginning of November.Currently PAS is training the crew and the aircraft should deploy this month.
The story goes on to say that the Bo105 previously used is already retired and allocated to the South Georgia Heritage Trust.
The story goes on to say that the Bo105 previously used is already retired and allocated to the South Georgia Heritage Trust.
Flaxton
Regardless of the 902s clear merits I think it is a bit rich to even suggest that the EC135 is an 'also ran' in the emergency services arena .... even the EC145 [BK117C2] has far outsold the 902 and most sales are into utility/police/EMS. Executive sales tend to go towards the AgustaWestland camp. And the 109 has also outsold the 902.
The EC sales figures [based on paying CUSTOMER decision] are 10 to 1 against.
Regardless of the 902s clear merits I think it is a bit rich to even suggest that the EC135 is an 'also ran' in the emergency services arena .... even the EC145 [BK117C2] has far outsold the 902 and most sales are into utility/police/EMS. Executive sales tend to go towards the AgustaWestland camp. And the 109 has also outsold the 902.
The EC sales figures [based on paying CUSTOMER decision] are 10 to 1 against.
Heli1 - you may have thought you read that in HeliData news, but I think you'll find you actually wrote it!! And the ex Action ex Suffolk County etc machine is not "now G-COTH" as it's still not yet registered as such - you can check at the CAA's G-INFO page
The old Trinity House 105 is not just "allocated", but SOLD to South Georgia Heritage Trust along with another, a spares package and a 1000 hour component guarantee, as I wrote here.
The old Trinity House 105 is not just "allocated", but SOLD to South Georgia Heritage Trust along with another, a spares package and a 1000 hour component guarantee, as I wrote here.
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helihub - In this release from October, MD claimed it was supporting "more than 130" Explorers worldwide. Never did understand the math behind this claim, given the number of aircraft retired/destroyed.
N3ND, last seen here, was recently confirmed by 'cliom' at Scramble as having arrived at Staverton.
I/C
N3ND, last seen here, was recently confirmed by 'cliom' at Scramble as having arrived at Staverton.
I/C
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Seniortrooper -depends on how many crew you have on board. One on the stretcher and two walking wounded unless you have an extra crewman / doctor / medical observer / cameraperson etc etc.
PANEWS - the 135 is a fine machine no doubt. Just happens to be second best, no shame in that, surely.
Bottom line is - if the beancounters choose your HEMS machine, you'll get an EC135. Put the pilots in charge, and the future at MD would be very rosy indeed.
109 outselling the 902...I would hope it has outsold the 902, given that it's been around since the year dot. However, how many fingers do you need to count the number of 109s flying HEMS/ Police in the UK?
Let's just say that if you have any soul, you'd want to leave the school dance with the 902. You'd still be happy enough to take the 135 home, but you wouldn't want your friends to see you with her...
PANEWS - the 135 is a fine machine no doubt. Just happens to be second best, no shame in that, surely.
Bottom line is - if the beancounters choose your HEMS machine, you'll get an EC135. Put the pilots in charge, and the future at MD would be very rosy indeed.
109 outselling the 902...I would hope it has outsold the 902, given that it's been around since the year dot. However, how many fingers do you need to count the number of 109s flying HEMS/ Police in the UK?
Let's just say that if you have any soul, you'd want to leave the school dance with the 902. You'd still be happy enough to take the 135 home, but you wouldn't want your friends to see you with her...