PPL(H) Training, a few questions
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: London
Posts: 231
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A lot of good (and correct info in the above posts). I hold both FAA & JAA PPL(H) and here are some points to note:
It seems the average number of hours for a PPL (H) completion is in the 60ish hour range, so budget on that number. The objective is to become a good pilot, not how fast you can get through training. I found it far more cost beneficial to do my initial training in the US and get my FAA PPL followed by the 5hr conversion (to get the SFAR endorsement) for the R44. Then do conversion training for the JAA PPL here in the UK. It was also more fun and less stressful. Once you have your FAA, you can still fly in the UK while waiting on the British weather to give you a break to get your lessons in. Some notes:
· The JAA cross-country has longer distance requirements, so make certain that your FAA cross-country experience meets or exceeds the JAA requirements. Compare all the FAA/JAA requirements so you don’t fall short. Very similar but with two main differences: FAA includes 3hrs night flying and JAA includes 5hrs “instrument awareness” training (flying with goggles so that you only see the instruments). Both are good for you.
· The FAA R44 endorsement is not technically a “type rating” as under the JAA. You can only get a JAA recognised type rating if the US training was done at an approved Type Rating Training Organisation (TRTO) - good luck finding one. For the JAA, whatever helicopter you take your exam in you get that type rating. So what I did was take my JAA PPL exam flight in the R44, so that any additional flying for the R22 type rating would be at lower rates.
· Combine your medical visits for the FAA ClassIII Medical and JAA ClassII with the same doctor & visit. There are a couple physicians in the UK that can do both on the same visit saving time and money both initially and every couple years in the future as then your expiry dates are close to synchronised
· Ground exams? Yes, start reading now but keep them separate (FAA & JAA) so that you don’t confuse the location distinct info. FAA is one big computer based exam and the JAA is seven separate pen&pencil exams with an oral radio license exam (FAA has no separate radio license at PPL level). I’d suggest getting the ground exams out of the way, that way during training you can concentrate on the flying, which you will find more tiring than expected, especially if you are doing multiple training flights a day.
· Size (R22 vs R44): I weigh 90kg and most of my training in FL was done by a fairly stocky Scottish bloke. If you fit in R22 comfortably and are in W&B, that good enough. You don’t need full fuel. The R22 flies over 3hrs on full fuel, that’s a long damn lesson? This is training by yourself with an instructor. There is no need to impress friends/family with how nice the helicopter is, save that for when you have your license. Of course if money is no object, choose neither and train in an Agusta 109
· Better trainer? Don’t get these PPRune folk started on that topic, it will go on for pages. I will note that if you can autorotate the R22 well, you will find a R44 auto quite easy and very forgiving. NOT the other way around.
· Price (US vs UK): Today we’re at 1.54 GBP/USD. I got three-bedroom suites for $75/nite and convertible sportcars for 30/day. Florida/California is cheap and getting cheaper.
· Rental once you’re licensed? Technically, any UK location can SFH to a FAA PPL. However not all do. Seems a bit of a coin toss as to who is OK with it.
· One silly difference, upon completing you FAA exam ride you get a Temporary Airman Certificate with which you can fly immediately. Upon completing your JAA exam ride, you can’t technically fly until your paperwork is processed by the CAA and you receive your license in the post. Get used to being displeased with CAA – that’s only the start.
As for Frank’s comments, when you’re the owner of the world’s largest civilian helicopter company, I believe many of your statements are guided by your lawyers and not necessarily your own views. Once licensed, I would highly recommend the Robinson Safety Course in California. The overall cost is less than the flying time you get included.
Have fun
It seems the average number of hours for a PPL (H) completion is in the 60ish hour range, so budget on that number. The objective is to become a good pilot, not how fast you can get through training. I found it far more cost beneficial to do my initial training in the US and get my FAA PPL followed by the 5hr conversion (to get the SFAR endorsement) for the R44. Then do conversion training for the JAA PPL here in the UK. It was also more fun and less stressful. Once you have your FAA, you can still fly in the UK while waiting on the British weather to give you a break to get your lessons in. Some notes:
· The JAA cross-country has longer distance requirements, so make certain that your FAA cross-country experience meets or exceeds the JAA requirements. Compare all the FAA/JAA requirements so you don’t fall short. Very similar but with two main differences: FAA includes 3hrs night flying and JAA includes 5hrs “instrument awareness” training (flying with goggles so that you only see the instruments). Both are good for you.
· The FAA R44 endorsement is not technically a “type rating” as under the JAA. You can only get a JAA recognised type rating if the US training was done at an approved Type Rating Training Organisation (TRTO) - good luck finding one. For the JAA, whatever helicopter you take your exam in you get that type rating. So what I did was take my JAA PPL exam flight in the R44, so that any additional flying for the R22 type rating would be at lower rates.
· Combine your medical visits for the FAA ClassIII Medical and JAA ClassII with the same doctor & visit. There are a couple physicians in the UK that can do both on the same visit saving time and money both initially and every couple years in the future as then your expiry dates are close to synchronised
· Ground exams? Yes, start reading now but keep them separate (FAA & JAA) so that you don’t confuse the location distinct info. FAA is one big computer based exam and the JAA is seven separate pen&pencil exams with an oral radio license exam (FAA has no separate radio license at PPL level). I’d suggest getting the ground exams out of the way, that way during training you can concentrate on the flying, which you will find more tiring than expected, especially if you are doing multiple training flights a day.
· Size (R22 vs R44): I weigh 90kg and most of my training in FL was done by a fairly stocky Scottish bloke. If you fit in R22 comfortably and are in W&B, that good enough. You don’t need full fuel. The R22 flies over 3hrs on full fuel, that’s a long damn lesson? This is training by yourself with an instructor. There is no need to impress friends/family with how nice the helicopter is, save that for when you have your license. Of course if money is no object, choose neither and train in an Agusta 109
· Better trainer? Don’t get these PPRune folk started on that topic, it will go on for pages. I will note that if you can autorotate the R22 well, you will find a R44 auto quite easy and very forgiving. NOT the other way around.
· Price (US vs UK): Today we’re at 1.54 GBP/USD. I got three-bedroom suites for $75/nite and convertible sportcars for 30/day. Florida/California is cheap and getting cheaper.
· Rental once you’re licensed? Technically, any UK location can SFH to a FAA PPL. However not all do. Seems a bit of a coin toss as to who is OK with it.
· One silly difference, upon completing you FAA exam ride you get a Temporary Airman Certificate with which you can fly immediately. Upon completing your JAA exam ride, you can’t technically fly until your paperwork is processed by the CAA and you receive your license in the post. Get used to being displeased with CAA – that’s only the start.
As for Frank’s comments, when you’re the owner of the world’s largest civilian helicopter company, I believe many of your statements are guided by your lawyers and not necessarily your own views. Once licensed, I would highly recommend the Robinson Safety Course in California. The overall cost is less than the flying time you get included.
Have fun
Hovering AND talking
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Propping up bars in the Lands of D H Lawrence and Bishop Bonner
Age: 59
Posts: 5,705
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Upon completing your JAA exam ride, you can’t technically fly until your paperwork is processed by the CAA
Cheers
Whirls
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Land of the Trolls
Posts: 56
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Whirls
Have to agree with you on point about motorbikes and throttle,
I drove to my lessons on my motorbike (many moons ago) to learn
to fly the R22 which then had no 'gov' and I remember the constant
confusion in my mind as to which way to turn the throttle.
But still love the little heli to bits
Pv
Have to agree with you on point about motorbikes and throttle,
I drove to my lessons on my motorbike (many moons ago) to learn
to fly the R22 which then had no 'gov' and I remember the constant
confusion in my mind as to which way to turn the throttle.
But still love the little heli to bits
Pv
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: SE England
Posts: 409
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I also had many, many thousands of motorcycling miles under my belt before learning to fly helicopters and the directing of twisting the throttle caused me no end of problems, despite my instructor's insistance that it shouldn't matter as it was the "wrong hand." He also didn't like me wearing my leathers in the '22, but I think he was just weird. 
Like DBChopper, I had spent many thousands of miles in the saddle and always turned up on my bike for my R22 heli lesson. One face I'll never forget was that of my instructor when I did the sprag clutch check by snapping the throttle closed - or open in my case... 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: london
Age: 62
Posts: 65
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Leather
DB
I think your instructor would have been more weird if he DID like you wearing leathers in the cockpit. Thanks for the warning motorcycle drivers, I shall now ask any R22 pilot if they ride a bike before I climb in with them, given your confessions about which way to twist the throttle. I should add "ha ha" just to confirm that I am joking, knowing how easy it is to get slaughtered on this site
best wishes
Sean (former speedway rider and R22 pilot who has broken more bones on the speedway track than in a helicopter, so far)
I think your instructor would have been more weird if he DID like you wearing leathers in the cockpit. Thanks for the warning motorcycle drivers, I shall now ask any R22 pilot if they ride a bike before I climb in with them, given your confessions about which way to twist the throttle. I should add "ha ha" just to confirm that I am joking, knowing how easy it is to get slaughtered on this site
best wishes
Sean (former speedway rider and R22 pilot who has broken more bones on the speedway track than in a helicopter, so far)
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Land of damp and drizzle
Posts: 608
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Chalk me up to the 'biker/throttle goes the wrong way' thing too. I also learned to fly in armoured motorbike boots, as my only transport was the bike back then. For ages afterwards, it felt wierd flying in anything else!
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: N/A
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
R22/ZX-6R here. Always thought of the collective/heli throttle as a dumbbell curl-type manoeuvre and have not (yet) ever made that mistake. Sod's law I'm in for a treat next flight. 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: london
Age: 62
Posts: 65
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
bones
Thanks DB
despite the broken bones, I'd do it all again. The thrill of the race, the smell of Castrol R, the crack in the pits and the fact that people actually paid to come and watch us race. I could never get my head around that.
Best wishes
PS Myuserid, sorry, this twist-grip throttle debate probably isn't helping you much. Good luck with whatever you decide and above all, have lots of fun
Sean
despite the broken bones, I'd do it all again. The thrill of the race, the smell of Castrol R, the crack in the pits and the fact that people actually paid to come and watch us race. I could never get my head around that.
Best wishes
PS Myuserid, sorry, this twist-grip throttle debate probably isn't helping you much. Good luck with whatever you decide and above all, have lots of fun
Sean
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: southampton
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
PPL (H) Recommendation
Hi,
I have around 180 hours on fixed wing aircraft and microlights. I'm looking at completing a PPL(H). Could anyone recommend a school, I live in Hampshire but would be willing to travel further afield. I have looked at Fast at Thruxton and Elite and Pheonix at Goodwood. It would appear hourly rate is around £280-300 ph on the R22, including VAT, landing fees etc. Is this the going rate, or is there anywhere else more cost effective?
Many thanks
I have around 180 hours on fixed wing aircraft and microlights. I'm looking at completing a PPL(H). Could anyone recommend a school, I live in Hampshire but would be willing to travel further afield. I have looked at Fast at Thruxton and Elite and Pheonix at Goodwood. It would appear hourly rate is around £280-300 ph on the R22, including VAT, landing fees etc. Is this the going rate, or is there anywhere else more cost effective?
Many thanks
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 392
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Never been there, but I've heard Bournemouth is quite good, and they have S300s.
These might be a bit more expensive than the R22s, but could work out more cost effective in the longer term. And, they are widely regarded as the best training helicopter.
good luck
These might be a bit more expensive than the R22s, but could work out more cost effective in the longer term. And, they are widely regarded as the best training helicopter.
good luck
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Here
Posts: 54
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Agree about Bournemouth Helicopters, ask for some time with Richard if you fly down there he's a very good instructor.
I would avoid Helicentre Aviation down there though, or anywhere else for that matter.
I would avoid Helicentre Aviation down there though, or anywhere else for that matter.
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Devon
Age: 49
Posts: 48
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Avoid Helicentre - why.
Photex,
could you elaborate as to why you would avoid Helicentre at Bournemouth or anywhere else?
Other than those already mentioned there is also Vanguard Helicopters at Henstridge, although it's a bit further. They fly Enstrom's I believe.
could you elaborate as to why you would avoid Helicentre at Bournemouth or anywhere else?
Other than those already mentioned there is also Vanguard Helicopters at Henstridge, although it's a bit further. They fly Enstrom's I believe.
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Land of damp and drizzle
Posts: 608
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Be a little careful choosing which aircraft you train in - the 300 is, by all accounts, a much easier and more benign aircraft to learn in, but there are rather more Robbies around (both R22 and R44). The best training aircraft for you will depend largely on what you plan to do once you're trained; if you're planning to transition to an R44 pretty much straight away, or money is an issue for you, you're probably better off training in an R22. Alternately, if you're planning to SFH from your local school and fly yourself around for the foreseeable future, and they run 300s, then you're probably better off sticking with that.
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Post PPL(H)
I wish I paid more attention to PPRune than my desire to learn to fly Helicopters. Thank you guys for your contribution i enjoyed reading the posts even after my PPL. On the positive side I passed in 41 hours in the R22 with no motorcycle experience. What really helped was my fixed wing background. Simply I can't afford to train in R44 and I think it's more fun in the 22. Instructors at Helicopter Services based at Wycome Air Park are very helpful.
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Kings Caple, Ross-on-Wye.orPiccots End. Hertfordshire
Posts: 458
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Private licence.
Good to hear 'Rookie Captain' qualified for private licence in 41 hours. (just 2over the fixed wing min of 39) ... my last five 'ab initio' students completed the syllabus and passed their Skills Test in 46 hrs, 45 hrs, 45hrs, 47hrs and 48 hrs. Types were Enstrom 280, Enstrom 28A, MD 520, Enstrom 28A and Sikorsky 300. Probably had something to do with the fact that four were teenagers ... two being 17 on the day they passed the Skills Test on both fixed wing AND rotary. All flew almost continuously throughout the course. Safe flying to all. DRK
