Police Civilianisation of air support
Night Hours
Join Date: Nov 2008
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heres one to lob into the saving money equation - go down to 2 crew. Pilot plus observer. Slash budgets in a stroke, reduce coffee bills, equipment budgets oh the list of benefits is endless... or is it?
Could it work? Anyone tried it? lots of snags but are there any benefits?
Could it work? Anyone tried it? lots of snags but are there any benefits?
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Teesside
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The other question to be asked apart from why not civilianise the whole system is do we as council tax and national taxpayers actually need Police helicopters. It's a bit like having a dishwasher. Very nice but is it really an essential in these straightened times.
Join Date: Aug 2007
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1. There is no accepted wisdom of air support.
2. Car crime going through the roof? What do you do fly over peoples houses and drop immobilisers and vehicle security devices down on the locals?. The biggest deterrent to car thieves is to try and steal vehicles which have factory fitted immobilisers and alarms. As you will have noticed all vehicles less than 10 years old have these fitted and how many are stolen? Very few.
3.If that's the best two arguments you can come up wirh then don't civilianise....get rid.
2. Car crime going through the roof? What do you do fly over peoples houses and drop immobilisers and vehicle security devices down on the locals?. The biggest deterrent to car thieves is to try and steal vehicles which have factory fitted immobilisers and alarms. As you will have noticed all vehicles less than 10 years old have these fitted and how many are stolen? Very few.
3.If that's the best two arguments you can come up wirh then don't civilianise....get rid.
Join Date: May 2008
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As you will have noticed all vehicles less than 10 years old have these fitted and how many are stolen? Very few.
Experience...
Zorab64,
Could you explain to me the meaning of "appropriate experience" in your last post?
I'll give you credit for previous sorties involving hovering behind clouds over Belfast at 1500'....
But as for hiding behind trees and trawling well known safe low level routes over Boscombe Down or N.Ireland... I'm not sure where that holds any distinct advantage ( in a modern ASU) over a well disiplined 2000 hour civvy trained pilot, well aversed in operating at low level in poor weather under sometimes intense commercial pressure and to un-prepared landing sites (HEMS or VIP/charter). Familiarity in intense night ops will probably only ever come from serving with a civvy police unit.
Beleive it or not, this is a genuine question and not a dig at ex mil guy's.
Could you explain to me the meaning of "appropriate experience" in your last post?
I'll give you credit for previous sorties involving hovering behind clouds over Belfast at 1500'....
But as for hiding behind trees and trawling well known safe low level routes over Boscombe Down or N.Ireland... I'm not sure where that holds any distinct advantage ( in a modern ASU) over a well disiplined 2000 hour civvy trained pilot, well aversed in operating at low level in poor weather under sometimes intense commercial pressure and to un-prepared landing sites (HEMS or VIP/charter). Familiarity in intense night ops will probably only ever come from serving with a civvy police unit.
Beleive it or not, this is a genuine question and not a dig at ex mil guy's.
paarmo
You're just embarrassing yourself now, it really is time to stop posting. There are threads that you can make a contribution to, I'm sure; but this isn't one of them.
If you're just trying to provoke a response then well done, it's worked, so you may leave now, job done.
You're just embarrassing yourself now, it really is time to stop posting. There are threads that you can make a contribution to, I'm sure; but this isn't one of them.
If you're just trying to provoke a response then well done, it's worked, so you may leave now, job done.
Join Date: Jul 2005
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What a crock
Paarmo,
I find your comments ill informed to say the least, were you bullied as a child by an Air Observer, Or have you just failed selection
If what you say is true then no car under 10 years old gets stolen
If you believe that I'll tell you another....................Father Christmas IS real!!
As was said above if you wanted to provoke a debate, well done, but I seriously think your time here is done.
by the way I'm biased, just like J.A.F.O i'm JAFO.
I find your comments ill informed to say the least, were you bullied as a child by an Air Observer, Or have you just failed selection
If what you say is true then no car under 10 years old gets stolen
If you believe that I'll tell you another....................Father Christmas IS real!!
As was said above if you wanted to provoke a debate, well done, but I seriously think your time here is done.
by the way I'm biased, just like J.A.F.O i'm JAFO.
Join Date: Sep 2001
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Further to "The biggest deterrent to car thieves is to try and steal vehicles which have factory fitted immobilisers and alarms. As you will have noticed all vehicles less than 10 years old have these fitted and how many are stolen? Very few."
Very few?! Er, no. Lots and lots actually. Retro quite correctly mentions hook and cane but in most of the areas I currently fly, new cars are being stolen using keys taken from simple break ins. These lovely new vehicles (all fully immobiliser and alarm fitted) are then often used to transport away goods from the house in question. In my own current experience, when air support is overhead on these incidents, these vehicles and goods are always recovered (and suspects arrested). Without air support, they usually get away.
Very few?! Er, no. Lots and lots actually. Retro quite correctly mentions hook and cane but in most of the areas I currently fly, new cars are being stolen using keys taken from simple break ins. These lovely new vehicles (all fully immobiliser and alarm fitted) are then often used to transport away goods from the house in question. In my own current experience, when air support is overhead on these incidents, these vehicles and goods are always recovered (and suspects arrested). Without air support, they usually get away.
Join Date: Jul 2007
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Ok, dont jump down my throat......
But, do we need £3m+ helicopters for the Police? granted probably the Met and the biggest of citys like Manchester etc....
But what about places like Yorkshire and that? I'm not saying Yorkshire dont deserve a nice new expensive twin etc its a vast vast area to cover I just look at some of what the U.S Police, and other countrys manage with, 500's 206's AS350's etc..... (and im sure a 500E could get places as faster or faster!) and think either how many more we could have flying or how much money could be saved??
Dont get me wrong, I would LOVE to fly EC135's and MD902's and envy the guys who do, but the heli's that are used solely for Police, i.e. not HEMS/Police joint use, do they really need to be £3m+ machines?
could a nice 500E or AS350 not do the same job around the more rural countys?
The camera systems seem so advanced these days the pilots dont seem to need to go really low to get good coverage or pursue a stolen vehicle, most seem to be quite high to get a good field of view and see the road ahead......
I dont know, its just more of an opinion/question really so dont attack me ppruners! But curious for your thoughts!
But, do we need £3m+ helicopters for the Police? granted probably the Met and the biggest of citys like Manchester etc....
But what about places like Yorkshire and that? I'm not saying Yorkshire dont deserve a nice new expensive twin etc its a vast vast area to cover I just look at some of what the U.S Police, and other countrys manage with, 500's 206's AS350's etc..... (and im sure a 500E could get places as faster or faster!) and think either how many more we could have flying or how much money could be saved??
Dont get me wrong, I would LOVE to fly EC135's and MD902's and envy the guys who do, but the heli's that are used solely for Police, i.e. not HEMS/Police joint use, do they really need to be £3m+ machines?
could a nice 500E or AS350 not do the same job around the more rural countys?
The camera systems seem so advanced these days the pilots dont seem to need to go really low to get good coverage or pursue a stolen vehicle, most seem to be quite high to get a good field of view and see the road ahead......
I dont know, its just more of an opinion/question really so dont attack me ppruners! But curious for your thoughts!
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R-44 as well as the thing about twins over cities, you have to consider the weight of the camera, nitesun, nav computer ANPR kit and all the other stuff then add three or more crew (sorry, pilot and two 'passengers') and it starts to add up, only 135/145 and 902 will do.
Join Date: Jul 2007
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Yeah, I know there not allowed, my thoughts are why are they not allowed? how bigger a benefit is it in some areas of the UK to have a twin over a single?
Like I say the U.S manage fine with there singles doing mostly the same job for around 1/3 of the cost.....
I cant see why (if its only used by Police and not HEMS) that all the gear couldnt be put in 500,206,350 etc.....
Just my 2 cents.....
Like I say the U.S manage fine with there singles doing mostly the same job for around 1/3 of the cost.....
I cant see why (if its only used by Police and not HEMS) that all the gear couldnt be put in 500,206,350 etc.....
Just my 2 cents.....
Join Date: Jul 2007
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Ahhh yes, thats one very valid point actually.
I know they carry alot of kit, how much more kit and crew do the UK Police carry than the U.S etc. The U.S police see to have a nightsun and thermal imaging gear and extra comms.
I know they carry alot of kit, how much more kit and crew do the UK Police carry than the U.S etc. The U.S police see to have a nightsun and thermal imaging gear and extra comms.
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It came as a big suprise to me but most US units don't carry the latest FLIR/Wescam kit, the new generation stuff is much heavier and if you have a look inside both US and European Police aircraft the kit is mounted in a much more substantial way. The US all tend to use Police officers as Pilots and cut the crew to two. Like most UK units we fly at nearly max weight. We have cut our kit to as low as it will go. Believe me there's enough work for two officers and no way could one officer/observer do more than do a missing person search. Anything more you need two observers.