What would you do and why?
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What would you do and why?
I am looking for input on a hypothetical emergency being discussed during sim training.
Scenario:
An ARA approach to an offshore installation (100 miles offshore) in marginal weather that is barely within limits (foggy,3/4 mile vis, 2-300 foot ceiling).
The wind favors a landing by the left seat pilot (LHP), the RHP will fly the pilot monitored approach.
At the MAP (.75nm) the LHP announces " visual, I have control", takes control and starts to maneuver for the landing.
A ENG FIRE light illuminates.
Would you:
A) disregard the warning light, continue to land and deal with the emergency on the deck, or
B) overshoot, and carry out the ENG FIRE drill.
C) is there a C?
Scenario:
An ARA approach to an offshore installation (100 miles offshore) in marginal weather that is barely within limits (foggy,3/4 mile vis, 2-300 foot ceiling).
The wind favors a landing by the left seat pilot (LHP), the RHP will fly the pilot monitored approach.
At the MAP (.75nm) the LHP announces " visual, I have control", takes control and starts to maneuver for the landing.
A ENG FIRE light illuminates.
Would you:
A) disregard the warning light, continue to land and deal with the emergency on the deck, or
B) overshoot, and carry out the ENG FIRE drill.
C) is there a C?
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your scenario and my decision making
Given your scenario this is my decision making:
1) you are "inside the faf" if one can call it that on the ARA!
2) "visual" call equals visual maneuvering for landing
3) YOU'RE ON FIRE! assume that you really are...we have no choice in the matter.
4) assuming you're on profile
PLANT THAT PIG ON THE DECK!
For me, I would not want to climb back into IMC conditions...ON FIRE!
But that's just me!
DK
1) you are "inside the faf" if one can call it that on the ARA!
2) "visual" call equals visual maneuvering for landing
3) YOU'RE ON FIRE! assume that you really are...we have no choice in the matter.
4) assuming you're on profile
PLANT THAT PIG ON THE DECK!
For me, I would not want to climb back into IMC conditions...ON FIRE!
But that's just me!
DK
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What's the aircraft emergency procedures?
For me:
c) Carry out initial emergency actions (slow to Vse, retard PCL, confirm fire, secure donk, fire #1 bottle) whilst continuing visual approach to land on one engine. At the end of a 100+nm transit, you must be able to achieve that, surely?
Reason? Safest option
For me:
c) Carry out initial emergency actions (slow to Vse, retard PCL, confirm fire, secure donk, fire #1 bottle) whilst continuing visual approach to land on one engine. At the end of a 100+nm transit, you must be able to achieve that, surely?
Reason? Safest option
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For me:
c) Carry out initial emergency actions (slow to Vse, retard PCL, confirm fire, secure donk, fire #1 bottle) whilst continuing visual approach to land on one engine. At the end of a 100+nm transit, you must be able to achieve that, surely?
c) Carry out initial emergency actions (slow to Vse, retard PCL, confirm fire, secure donk, fire #1 bottle) whilst continuing visual approach to land on one engine. At the end of a 100+nm transit, you must be able to achieve that, surely?
Reason 1, too heavy for a single engine landing. Reason 2, nowhere near enough time to carry out the drill.
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Hmmmm.
.75nm to run, at least 45 - 60 seconds to the deck. That's quite a bit of time to carry out essential fire drill (memory items, not the full check list), surely?
Too heavy after a transit? Practically.... I beg to differ. Overtorque the good engine if you have to, but get the thing on the deck: there is no safer option.
(Been there, done that: one engine blew up in flight 10 minutes after refuel, heavy, inter-rig shuttles, 5 feet run on needed without overtorquing. Bugger the charts
)
.75nm to run, at least 45 - 60 seconds to the deck. That's quite a bit of time to carry out essential fire drill (memory items, not the full check list), surely?
Too heavy after a transit? Practically.... I beg to differ. Overtorque the good engine if you have to, but get the thing on the deck: there is no safer option.
(Been there, done that: one engine blew up in flight 10 minutes after refuel, heavy, inter-rig shuttles, 5 feet run on needed without overtorquing. Bugger the charts
)
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Sorry Squeaks, as I said, shutting down the engine and doing an OEI landing is not an option (for whatever reason).
Faced with that, would you choose option A or B?
Faced with that, would you choose option A or B?
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What would you do and why?
Under the situation, I would continue the approach & landing to the helideck.Most aircraft designs(Fire Wall) will alowed and contained the fire. Make a AEO approach and land.
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As I read it, you're setting the crew up for one of maybe three things (there might be others, I suppose):
*overshoot, put the fire out, go back ashore to a runway (you've already said they can't pull off a single-engine landing from 3/4 nm out)
*overshoot, fail to put the fire out, put it in the water, which might be a mite unpleasant as apparently they haven't got the power on one engine to put it on a deck, so putting it into an unknown sea state could be a little problematic
*land on two engines either on the deck or in the water, one of which engines may or may not have been on fire for the last minute or so of flight. Either one of these is going to take you about a minute to pull off.
Or perhaps you're going to be fiendish and immediately make the weather go south on them again as soon as Junior says "I have controls... oh, what's the pretty red light?" so they're forced to overshoot and be indecisive. Hard to say, really.
It's also going to depend upon the actual fire procedure in the aircraft in question. Some older machines have optical or otherwise somewhat unreliable fire detection systems and I've seen a couple which have as their first step "Attempt to confirm presence of fire" or the like. I'll grant you, none of them recently, but still.
Anyway, at 3/4 nm on an ARA, you should already be at Vse (or so close to it that it makes virtually no difference) and level, so you're not going to get a much higher likelihood of success should you choose to shut one down, especially after having burnt almost an hour's worth of fuel.
I don't find the scenario particularly realistic as written (if you get the indication right at 3/4 nm, you've got a full minute to touchdown, maybe 6 steps in a fire procedure and the first (establishing s/e profile) is already done, landing checks should already be done, so it's identify/confirm/do, identify/confirm/do, identify/confirm/do, fire a bottle, whatever...), but then again, maybe I'm missing something. You didn't actually say how many engines were on the machine, either, though I assume it's 2 from post #4.
If there's a 'C', I might attempt to confirm the fire, but again, that's a bit tricky in IMC while as the non-handling pilot you're supposed to be attending to other matters.
What is the instructional objective here? In general, unless you're reconstructing an actual scenario, it's typical to come up with the objective first and then construct the scenario around it.
*overshoot, put the fire out, go back ashore to a runway (you've already said they can't pull off a single-engine landing from 3/4 nm out)
*overshoot, fail to put the fire out, put it in the water, which might be a mite unpleasant as apparently they haven't got the power on one engine to put it on a deck, so putting it into an unknown sea state could be a little problematic
*land on two engines either on the deck or in the water, one of which engines may or may not have been on fire for the last minute or so of flight. Either one of these is going to take you about a minute to pull off.
Or perhaps you're going to be fiendish and immediately make the weather go south on them again as soon as Junior says "I have controls... oh, what's the pretty red light?" so they're forced to overshoot and be indecisive. Hard to say, really.
It's also going to depend upon the actual fire procedure in the aircraft in question. Some older machines have optical or otherwise somewhat unreliable fire detection systems and I've seen a couple which have as their first step "Attempt to confirm presence of fire" or the like. I'll grant you, none of them recently, but still.
Anyway, at 3/4 nm on an ARA, you should already be at Vse (or so close to it that it makes virtually no difference) and level, so you're not going to get a much higher likelihood of success should you choose to shut one down, especially after having burnt almost an hour's worth of fuel.
I don't find the scenario particularly realistic as written (if you get the indication right at 3/4 nm, you've got a full minute to touchdown, maybe 6 steps in a fire procedure and the first (establishing s/e profile) is already done, landing checks should already be done, so it's identify/confirm/do, identify/confirm/do, identify/confirm/do, fire a bottle, whatever...), but then again, maybe I'm missing something. You didn't actually say how many engines were on the machine, either, though I assume it's 2 from post #4.
If there's a 'C', I might attempt to confirm the fire, but again, that's a bit tricky in IMC while as the non-handling pilot you're supposed to be attending to other matters.
What is the instructional objective here? In general, unless you're reconstructing an actual scenario, it's typical to come up with the objective first and then construct the scenario around it.
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No drills, land on the water, get the rafts out. Could get expensive if you set the rig on fire as well - that's if they don't push you off anyway.
Phil
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Your choice of options, with no latitude, is a poison chalice
Ok, people seem to be fixating on the 100 miles, let's say it is only 50 miles or less. The basic question is, and again assuming an OEI deck landing is not an option, is it better to:
Continue the approach and land on the deck and fight the fire (if there really is one), or overshoot into IMC, complete the drill and proceed to the land based alt, overshoot and attempt to remain VMC, run the fire drill and if things go bad (can not put the fire out etc.) ditch beside the rig?
This is only a thinking exercise and looking to see what trainees thought processes are.
No drills, land on the water, get the rafts out. Could get expensive if you set the rig on fire as well - that's if they don't push you off anyway.
Oh, and did I mention it was night
Last edited by Outwest; 4th Apr 2009 at 05:34. Reason: spelling
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Well, I think the last step would be start sending out CVs to companies with aircraft that can fly on one engine... because I think whatever you do, you're going to lose this job, or at least the only airframe in the stable.
Of course it's at night... the freezing level is about 20' above your head and it's the copilot's first night away from his mother, for heavens' sake.
It's going to depend... if you're going to a real rig with real firefighting capabilities (which, if you're shooting an ARA, the odds are fair that you are) or the ability to get your machine over the side, you might land on (you'll probably lose your job, but whatever). If you're in some backwater without those things, you might want to go in the water (of course, there may be no one to get you out of the water there, either), though I might ask you what you were doing going out there in that sort of weather in the first place. I can sell you either one.
Of course it's at night... the freezing level is about 20' above your head and it's the copilot's first night away from his mother, for heavens' sake.
It's going to depend... if you're going to a real rig with real firefighting capabilities (which, if you're shooting an ARA, the odds are fair that you are) or the ability to get your machine over the side, you might land on (you'll probably lose your job, but whatever). If you're in some backwater without those things, you might want to go in the water (of course, there may be no one to get you out of the water there, either), though I might ask you what you were doing going out there in that sort of weather in the first place. I can sell you either one.
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During the approach checks what did the landing pilot brief the other pilot that his actions would be in the event of a malfunction before committal point? My guess is somethiing like -
'In the event of a malfunction before I call committed we will go around to the left/right and climb to MSA. Start the stop watch, call Nr, height and airspeed, no shutting down of an engine below 500' unless there is a fire.'
That is what the other pilot will be expecting and if If I were the sim instructor I would be expecting the go around too.
'In the event of a malfunction before I call committed we will go around to the left/right and climb to MSA. Start the stop watch, call Nr, height and airspeed, no shutting down of an engine below 500' unless there is a fire.'
That is what the other pilot will be expecting and if If I were the sim instructor I would be expecting the go around too.
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The problem with simulator instructors is that they can dream up many situations where there is very little margin for a successful outcome/survival. Lets face it you could devise any number of scenarios where death is the probable outcome. You haven't mentioned whether the engine with the firelight is still producing power - but late in the post you say it is now night time. The answer - put it on the deck - it is the most survivable of a number of poor choices.
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'In the event of a malfunction before I call committed we will go around to the left/right and climb to MSA
Back to the original question.....
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MMMMMMMMMMMm........
.......What about confirming you have a genuine problem before taking precipitate action. I believe it is still the case that you are more likely to have a false indication of engine fire rather than a genuine one.
I have said before that if you get out alive and brought everyone else on board with you then you made the right decision.
I love these challenging sim scenarios but I wouldn't rush to judgement on the outcome. There are some heart-rending stories from real-life accidents where the crew made all the right calls ........ except the last one....... and it killed them. If you read all the accident reports you can get your hands on you will come to realise just how much influence 'lady-luck' has on the outcome.
Personally I would go for an AEO rig landing unless I had some other indications (smoke,smell) that all was not well. At that range the deck crew should have you in sight and may be able to tell you if they can see any signs of a problem. If I had a genuine fire then I would try to put it out whilst the CoP flew towards the rig. An OEI landing in the water if the fire doesn't go out - burning helicopters not very welcome offshore! That said if the conditions for ditching were extremely unfavorable then bugger the rig's problems I would do an OEI landing on the deck. (If conditions for ditching were that bad there is probably a strong wind and I don't think OEI landing would be all that problematic although wind direction may be a factor).
Years ago we operated the Bo105 offshore and the nearest alternate was 187 miles away. We had to carry alternate fuel for all our infield shuttles but I don't think any of us contemplated a 187 mile flight on one donkey on a winter's night. It was going to be an OEI landing come what may. Fortunately the Fulmar had a chinook-size deck.
G
I have said before that if you get out alive and brought everyone else on board with you then you made the right decision.
I love these challenging sim scenarios but I wouldn't rush to judgement on the outcome. There are some heart-rending stories from real-life accidents where the crew made all the right calls ........ except the last one....... and it killed them. If you read all the accident reports you can get your hands on you will come to realise just how much influence 'lady-luck' has on the outcome.
Personally I would go for an AEO rig landing unless I had some other indications (smoke,smell) that all was not well. At that range the deck crew should have you in sight and may be able to tell you if they can see any signs of a problem. If I had a genuine fire then I would try to put it out whilst the CoP flew towards the rig. An OEI landing in the water if the fire doesn't go out - burning helicopters not very welcome offshore! That said if the conditions for ditching were extremely unfavorable then bugger the rig's problems I would do an OEI landing on the deck. (If conditions for ditching were that bad there is probably a strong wind and I don't think OEI landing would be all that problematic although wind direction may be a factor).
Years ago we operated the Bo105 offshore and the nearest alternate was 187 miles away. We had to carry alternate fuel for all our infield shuttles but I don't think any of us contemplated a 187 mile flight on one donkey on a winter's night. It was going to be an OEI landing come what may. Fortunately the Fulmar had a chinook-size deck.
G
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Outwest,
I've never had an issue with that. I would rather a missed approach with ANY warning lights. Get away from the water/obstructions, climb above 500' - then sort it out. Once it is sorted then make your decisions.
I've never had an issue with that. I would rather a missed approach with ANY warning lights. Get away from the water/obstructions, climb above 500' - then sort it out. Once it is sorted then make your decisions.
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Why climb into weather
As posted earlier fire drills must be initiated immediately (not after 40-60 sec). However, it may take time to confirm that the fire is extinguished. 3/4 mile vis would allow circling the rig at low level (with the benefit of a quick emergency landing on water, with emergency asset close by, if the fire continues). If the fire is out, circling the rig would also permit burning!!!!!!!!!!!! down fuel prior to landing.