Licensed vice Non-Licensed Airfields in the UK
Thread Starter
Licensed vice Non-Licensed Airfields in the UK
In the CHC thread there has been a bit of discussion about whether North Denes is a licensed airfield or not. There was also mention of approved operations that can be conducted there if it is licensed and not if it is unlicensed.
Can anyone explain the CAA thinking behind allowing Public Transport operations from an unlicensed airfield (non-scheduled only) but not allow type/license training to be conducted at the same unlicensed airfield?
By unscheduled.....does that mean the flights must be completely ad hoc....and not leave at the same time each day?
If we find North Denes to be an unlicensed airfield for some period of time...does that invalidate all training that took place there during that period and thus warrant a CAA investigation into that situation with a view towards invalidating every pilot license involved in the illegal training?
If the place is/was unlicensed....and one conducted IFR approaches to the airfield on an IRR....does that invalidate the IRR?
I fear a huge bucket of worms could be caused should the airfield actually be unlicensed.....or am I wrong in thinking that?
Can anyone explain the CAA thinking behind allowing Public Transport operations from an unlicensed airfield (non-scheduled only) but not allow type/license training to be conducted at the same unlicensed airfield?
By unscheduled.....does that mean the flights must be completely ad hoc....and not leave at the same time each day?
If we find North Denes to be an unlicensed airfield for some period of time...does that invalidate all training that took place there during that period and thus warrant a CAA investigation into that situation with a view towards invalidating every pilot license involved in the illegal training?
If the place is/was unlicensed....and one conducted IFR approaches to the airfield on an IRR....does that invalidate the IRR?
I fear a huge bucket of worms could be caused should the airfield actually be unlicensed.....or am I wrong in thinking that?
Hovering AND talking
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Can anyone explain the CAA thinking
Cheers
Whirls
There is nothing which indicates that North Denes is "notified" (the legal term) as a licensed aerodrome/heliport. To be "notified" it needs to either be shown in the UK AIP or NOTAM. I can find no record in either.
As to the legality of conducting certain types of flights, you need to refer to the ANO Article 126. It may be interest to know that my understanding, after discussion with relevant CAA Departments, is that the aircraft commander is ultimately responsible for determining if his/her flight requires use of a licensed aerodrome, and if it does, establishing that the relevant aerodrome is licensed at the time of flight. However, the aerodrome operator (if licensed) is responsible for notifying any changes to the licensed state.
As for apparently carrying out instrument approaches to an unlicensed aerodrome, while operating public transport, without Air Traffic Control (not A/G), is this really correct? The UK normally requires ATC, or exceptionally AFIS if ATC is available from an adjacent unit (Barrow Walney Island springs to mind), have never come across using A/G. There must be something that has not been mentioned that has caused CAA to agree to such an operation.
As to the legality of conducting certain types of flights, you need to refer to the ANO Article 126. It may be interest to know that my understanding, after discussion with relevant CAA Departments, is that the aircraft commander is ultimately responsible for determining if his/her flight requires use of a licensed aerodrome, and if it does, establishing that the relevant aerodrome is licensed at the time of flight. However, the aerodrome operator (if licensed) is responsible for notifying any changes to the licensed state.
As for apparently carrying out instrument approaches to an unlicensed aerodrome, while operating public transport, without Air Traffic Control (not A/G), is this really correct? The UK normally requires ATC, or exceptionally AFIS if ATC is available from an adjacent unit (Barrow Walney Island springs to mind), have never come across using A/G. There must be something that has not been mentioned that has caused CAA to agree to such an operation.
There is, however, an entry for Great Yarmouth (North Denes) EGSD in the Pooley's Flight Guide.
SAS,
My understanding of the 'training at a licensed site' only applied to ab-initio or initial training. This is due to the requirement for fire cover that you get at a licensed site.
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Denes
Let me set you straight.
North denes is not liceneced
it does have ATC service 7 days a week 0600-2300 hrs. It has 2 NDB approach which also use the DME at Norwich. all of this is approved by the CAA for approved operators i.e CHC, Bristow etc. The CAA audit the aerodrome and its facilities annually.
North denes does however fully operate to CAP 168 the licencing of aerodromes. the only part that it doesnt comply with is the security arrangements, i.e fencing area controls etc. It was not in the past deemed necessary to fence the 37 acre airfield in, but in the current state of the world this is now being looked at as is licensing. It does have a full H2 fire service available during all opening hours.
The ATC service is now supplied by Marshalls who also operate Norwich airport, this i belive now includes a limited radar service.
there is now no need for CHC staff to conduct an A to G service, although for an out of hours medivac, this may be an option, if this was done, it is as always the pilots discretion whether to use Denes as the return option, depending on conditions.
hope this clears things a little
North denes is not liceneced
it does have ATC service 7 days a week 0600-2300 hrs. It has 2 NDB approach which also use the DME at Norwich. all of this is approved by the CAA for approved operators i.e CHC, Bristow etc. The CAA audit the aerodrome and its facilities annually.
North denes does however fully operate to CAP 168 the licencing of aerodromes. the only part that it doesnt comply with is the security arrangements, i.e fencing area controls etc. It was not in the past deemed necessary to fence the 37 acre airfield in, but in the current state of the world this is now being looked at as is licensing. It does have a full H2 fire service available during all opening hours.
The ATC service is now supplied by Marshalls who also operate Norwich airport, this i belive now includes a limited radar service.
there is now no need for CHC staff to conduct an A to G service, although for an out of hours medivac, this may be an option, if this was done, it is as always the pilots discretion whether to use Denes as the return option, depending on conditions.
hope this clears things a little
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Thanks Slyguy - we're getting there... Slowly.
One point - try callng the Tower after 18.30. You will get a response from Denes Radio. No ATC currently from Denes after 18.30 local. Just A to G.
Currently the 'on airport' training requirements for a type rating are conducted at Norwich and sometimes Wattisham.
TCAS FAN - Both instrument approachs can be made outside the towers normal operating times. A note on the plate makes it clear however that contact with Radar must be maintained.
One point - try callng the Tower after 18.30. You will get a response from Denes Radio. No ATC currently from Denes after 18.30 local. Just A to G.
Currently the 'on airport' training requirements for a type rating are conducted at Norwich and sometimes Wattisham.
TCAS FAN - Both instrument approachs can be made outside the towers normal operating times. A note on the plate makes it clear however that contact with Radar must be maintained.
Originally Posted by slyguy
The ATC service is now supplied by Marshalls who also operate Norwich airport, this i belive now includes a limited radar service.
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Only training for the issue of a licence or rating needs to be carried out from a licensed airfield. I can quite legally revalidate a rating from your back garden. It's only for the issue of a licence or rating that I would be required to conduct the training and test from a licensed place.
So yes, you are wrong.
Very wrong.
So yes, you are wrong.
Very wrong.
Thread Starter
What is the logic behind that edict from on high?
What difference is the quality of training at either place...licensed or un-licensed?
I can see a requirement to operate out of a controlled airfield at some point in one's training but all of one's training?
What maneuvers are done on a revalidation ride as compared to the initial check ride that would make any difference?
....or is this just some more CAA bureaucratic mindset?
What difference is the quality of training at either place...licensed or un-licensed?
I can see a requirement to operate out of a controlled airfield at some point in one's training but all of one's training?
What maneuvers are done on a revalidation ride as compared to the initial check ride that would make any difference?
....or is this just some more CAA bureaucratic mindset?
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mr sasless,
a licenced airfield does not neccesarily mean that it has an ATC service, there are many examples of licensed airfields with A/G service, where effectively you are doing what you like.
e.g. white waltham, leicester are the first 2 i can think of.
regards
CF
I can see a requirement to operate out of a controlled airfield at some point in one's training but all of one's training?
e.g. white waltham, leicester are the first 2 i can think of.
regards
CF
Thread Starter
CF,
So in the UK one can do your license/initial rating and not be required to operate at an airfield with ATC?
So....if a licensed airfield does not have to have ATC....what makes the difference between the two types of airfields? (Besides the License!)
So in the UK one can do your license/initial rating and not be required to operate at an airfield with ATC?
So....if a licensed airfield does not have to have ATC....what makes the difference between the two types of airfields? (Besides the License!)
Sasless ... you just dont get it do you
We are brits and common sense doesnt come into it . We are programmed to obey without question . If the caa says you have to wear a blue shirt for a revalidation but a white one for ppl training ....then we do it 
That is why we have the morons we deserve governing us .......and THAT is why we ( professional pilots ) are all going to be unemployed soon . THAT is the CAA way
and the joke is ....WE pay them 
but we only have ourselves to blame for not having any balls and telling them where to go.
We are brits and common sense doesnt come into it . We are programmed to obey without question . If the caa says you have to wear a blue shirt for a revalidation but a white one for ppl training ....then we do it That is why we have the morons we deserve governing us .......and THAT is why we ( professional pilots ) are all going to be unemployed soon . THAT is the CAA way and the joke is ....WE pay them but we only have ourselves to blame for not having any balls and telling them where to go.
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Nigel,
I don't think it is fair to blame the CAA for the state of the UK economy and the fact that lots of pilots are being made unemployed, thats down to the government..
BC
(Perhaps that what you meant?)
I don't think it is fair to blame the CAA for the state of the UK economy and the fact that lots of pilots are being made unemployed, thats down to the government..
BC
(Perhaps that what you meant?)
Thread Starter
So.......having fire cover is the reason all that training must be done at a licensed airfield?
Why is it I am a bit.....well.....errrrr.....dubious of that being all that important?
Why would "fire cover" be more important than say....ATC?
So on a cross country flight for training....where one was to be doing an approach to a hover...then departing again for the next stop....one has to have fire cover to be legal for initial/rating training? But....not for any flying after you have your license or rating? Now that makes complete sense to me....NOT!
Nigel is right.....you guys are out of your minds to accept such bovine fecal matter!
Perhaps you might find some salt water somewhere and start chucking some CAA folks into the briny!
Why is it I am a bit.....well.....errrrr.....dubious of that being all that important?
Why would "fire cover" be more important than say....ATC?
So on a cross country flight for training....where one was to be doing an approach to a hover...then departing again for the next stop....one has to have fire cover to be legal for initial/rating training? But....not for any flying after you have your license or rating? Now that makes complete sense to me....NOT!
Nigel is right.....you guys are out of your minds to accept such bovine fecal matter!
Perhaps you might find some salt water somewhere and start chucking some CAA folks into the briny!
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but we only have ourselves to blame for not having any balls and telling them where to go
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Sasless ... you just dont get it do you We are brits and common sense doesnt come into it . We are programmed to obey without question . If the caa says you have to wear a blue shirt for a revalidation but a white one for ppl training ....then we do it That is why we have the morons we deserve governing us .......and THAT is why we ( professional pilots ) are all going to be unemployed soon . THAT is the CAA way and the joke is ....WE pay them but we only have ourselves to blame for not having any balls and telling them where to go.
High VIZ vest crap! and increased CAA charges to cover their increased costs. Wouldn't occur to them to reduce their own costs first!!!!. Just look at how many Home Guaud they employ at reception at Gatwick and subsidised canteen, expensive buildings etc etc.
I always presumed that the requirement for fire cover was because there is potentially a higher risk of bending an aircraft during initial or ab-initio training. The fire crew need to be there to help pull anyone out of the wreckage. 
Fire cover is obviously a requirement for licencing. But having fire cover doesn't automatically grant a facility a licence. I've got no idea why North Denes isn't licenced. 
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TorqueStripe / Bravo73,
as discussed on the CHC thread, I dont know all of the reasons but one of which is a lack of perimeter fence
Mrs whirlygig also said on the other thread that it was licensed in 2003, when she did her qualifying cross country, I believe she is mistaken and should keep quiet in case her PPL gets suspended till she does another qual X-C
regards
CF
I've got no idea why North Denes isn't licenced.
Mrs whirlygig also said on the other thread that it was licensed in 2003, when she did her qualifying cross country, I believe she is mistaken and should keep quiet in case her PPL gets suspended till she does another qual X-C
regards
CF