Accident statistics - head/neck injuries
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A hans device would not work in an aircraft, as to make the system work properly it needs specific belts to hold you and it in place,none of which will be certified of course - and then you also need the helmet to go with it . It is also rather awkward to get on and off, and generally is left connected to the helmet and the 2 are put on together. You also need a seat which is specifically shaped for the Hans , otherwise it feels uncomfortable sitting in a normal seat .
For those in light utility helicopters where the seat back is easily removed a custom seat back could be made to accommodate the hans.
Given the appalling design of most seats pre year 2000 there is room for improvement in the seat back in any case.
Mickjoebill
Given the appalling design of most seats pre year 2000 there is room for improvement in the seat back in any case.
Mickjoebill
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Madbob states in his post that an inquiry into a helicopter crash stated that 'the helmet clearly save his life'.........without doubt the best £500 that guy has ever spent, i'm off to order one now!
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I couple of months ago I flew with an old fella in his 206 from Switzerland. He's the owner/engineer/pilot/everything of a small company with an H300, 206 and Lama. He flies a lot of concrete for construction, but occasionally does give instructions and also flies VIPs to their favorite ski resort.
He insisted on a helmet and it was the first time I used one. Unfortunately the helmet was a bit too large for me, but I could definitely get used to it if you give me a recent model.
He made a point that he flew once with two guys in his H300 (were you are basically sitting on top of each other) and he had to do an emergency landing because of some mechanical failure (drive train if I recall correctly). He was the only one wearing a helmet. On touch down the Hughes 300 almost flipped over and he hit his head on the door post REALLY hard. With his one eye he saw the right passenger open the door and getting ready to jump out, while the ship was still almost flipping and the pilot was afraid his rotor would strike the ground or boom anytime soon. With his right arm he just grabbed that young guy who wanted to jump out and told him to stay put.
The point is, without his helmet he would probably have been unconscious, which could have resulted in lots of different endings of this story. He now also insists on passengers wearing the helmet, "even if it's Michael Schuhmacher".
He insisted on a helmet and it was the first time I used one. Unfortunately the helmet was a bit too large for me, but I could definitely get used to it if you give me a recent model.
He made a point that he flew once with two guys in his H300 (were you are basically sitting on top of each other) and he had to do an emergency landing because of some mechanical failure (drive train if I recall correctly). He was the only one wearing a helmet. On touch down the Hughes 300 almost flipped over and he hit his head on the door post REALLY hard. With his one eye he saw the right passenger open the door and getting ready to jump out, while the ship was still almost flipping and the pilot was afraid his rotor would strike the ground or boom anytime soon. With his right arm he just grabbed that young guy who wanted to jump out and told him to stay put.
The point is, without his helmet he would probably have been unconscious, which could have resulted in lots of different endings of this story. He now also insists on passengers wearing the helmet, "even if it's Michael Schuhmacher".
I used to wear one doing ag work but not for passenger work !! Wearing a helmet may make you feel safer but a) is that a good thing ? and b) If the pax then wear them that can create a danger ,as they will not be able to hear you give instructions ( if they are not connected or batt off say in a fire etc )
Lastly dont have too much faith in them ...the wearing of one actually caused the death of a friend of mine when the wire went around his neck .
Lastly dont have too much faith in them ...the wearing of one actually caused the death of a friend of mine when the wire went around his neck .
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Nigelh,
The thing I learned from that one (was that the squirrel next to the loch?) was that you need to go along to your friendly avionics engineer (if such a thing exists...) and get him to make up a length of cord about 3" long with a fresh set of plugs at each end. This creates a weak link that will detach regardless of the direction it is pulled.
Very handy for vacating an airframe in a hurry, but do make sure you've got enough length or a coil cable so you can lean out the door, very annoying to have to plug it back in with a load on the line.....
Knievel,
While it's true that you can get a failure of any kind, at any time, most passenger ops are conducted outside DennisK's "extra caution area", giving the opportunity to make us of our superior aviating skills to avoid needing what automotive engineers call "passive safety devices". This doesn't mean it can't go wrong, incredibly quickly, but the opportunity is there.
The operations that have sparked my research are those where there is limited opportunity to practice superior aviating skills and where, if any of us manage to find some, they would most likely serve to reduce, rather than avoid, the use of the "passive" equipment.
The thing I learned from that one (was that the squirrel next to the loch?) was that you need to go along to your friendly avionics engineer (if such a thing exists...) and get him to make up a length of cord about 3" long with a fresh set of plugs at each end. This creates a weak link that will detach regardless of the direction it is pulled.
Very handy for vacating an airframe in a hurry, but do make sure you've got enough length or a coil cable so you can lean out the door, very annoying to have to plug it back in with a load on the line.....
Knievel,
While it's true that you can get a failure of any kind, at any time, most passenger ops are conducted outside DennisK's "extra caution area", giving the opportunity to make us of our superior aviating skills to avoid needing what automotive engineers call "passive safety devices". This doesn't mean it can't go wrong, incredibly quickly, but the opportunity is there.
The operations that have sparked my research are those where there is limited opportunity to practice superior aviating skills and where, if any of us manage to find some, they would most likely serve to reduce, rather than avoid, the use of the "passive" equipment.
HANS for helis?
The Massa accident is drawing attention to his head gear including the use of the HANS.
Anyone have details of the types of head or neck injuries in heli accidents?
Perhaps some form of HANS device would reduce neck injuries in heli accidents? We go to the trouble of donning a helmet but there is considerable risk of neck damage or a basal skull fracture in an accident.
The heli-HANS would need to allow more rotational movement of the head than the HANS designed for racing divers who have the benefit of rear view mirrors
The HANS simply rests over the shoulders and the helmet has two tethers attached to it thus limiting the degree of forward movement of the head in relation to the neck.
As far as I know, part of the design problem is that the hans can't be attached to the seat so it must be wedged between driver and his seat back to be effective. Given that pilots are not strapped into seats as rigidly as racing car drivers are, a new design is needed to prevent the hans from moving off the pilots shoulders..
Apparently a common aspect of Basal fracture is that it severs arteries and one bleeds to death in less than a minute.
Mickjoebill
Anyone have details of the types of head or neck injuries in heli accidents?
Perhaps some form of HANS device would reduce neck injuries in heli accidents? We go to the trouble of donning a helmet but there is considerable risk of neck damage or a basal skull fracture in an accident.
The heli-HANS would need to allow more rotational movement of the head than the HANS designed for racing divers who have the benefit of rear view mirrors
The HANS simply rests over the shoulders and the helmet has two tethers attached to it thus limiting the degree of forward movement of the head in relation to the neck.
As far as I know, part of the design problem is that the hans can't be attached to the seat so it must be wedged between driver and his seat back to be effective. Given that pilots are not strapped into seats as rigidly as racing car drivers are, a new design is needed to prevent the hans from moving off the pilots shoulders..
Apparently a common aspect of Basal fracture is that it severs arteries and one bleeds to death in less than a minute.
Mickjoebill
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I was at a lecture by a racing Doctor who treated Zanardi after his accident. He also worked on the development of HANS. I understand that HANS is a device which limits forward rotation of the head due to the seating position of the driver i.e almost supine (lying down). I don't think it would be very effective in a helicopter accident which would be characterised by excessive vertical deceleration.
In the case of excessive horizontal deceleration, you end up with a face full of cyclic or instrument console.
Rather than HANS, how about a full face helmet?
In the case of excessive horizontal deceleration, you end up with a face full of cyclic or instrument console.
Rather than HANS, how about a full face helmet?
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
mickjoebill,
The HANS system only came into play when the car hit the barrier.
The system will do nothing about a dirty great spring hitting you in the head, thats where the helmet does its work.
In our business Pilot Joe 'A to B' will not wear a helmet, flying suit or indeed much if any protective clothing because of the image it portrays.
Either;
a. Customers don't want to be flown around by a pseudo Maverick wannabe out of Top Gun, with badged flying suit and black visored helmet.
Pax wish to have the short sleeved white shirt and tie with gold bars and headset look, complete with polyester trousers.
or
b. Walking from/to the aircraft at the flying school, race course, hotel or golfing venue, he/she might feel a little overdressed for the surroundings.
Of course we all know it makes sense to have a Nomex flying suit, helmet and gloves, but circumstances make us decide what to wear.
Why is it that when you go go-karting for example, they make you wear helmets and overalls, but it doesn't happen at flying schools!
Comparing Massas incident and the HANS to anything flying, is a bit of a red herring IMHO. To relate it to a flying incident, a bird (or spring from another aircraft) would come through the windscreen, hit us on the head rendering us unconscious and consequently not in control of the aircraft.
Now this is where I don't get where you think the HANS would be any use to us....
The HANS system only came into play when the car hit the barrier.
The system will do nothing about a dirty great spring hitting you in the head, thats where the helmet does its work.
In our business Pilot Joe 'A to B' will not wear a helmet, flying suit or indeed much if any protective clothing because of the image it portrays.
Either;
a. Customers don't want to be flown around by a pseudo Maverick wannabe out of Top Gun, with badged flying suit and black visored helmet.
Pax wish to have the short sleeved white shirt and tie with gold bars and headset look, complete with polyester trousers.
or
b. Walking from/to the aircraft at the flying school, race course, hotel or golfing venue, he/she might feel a little overdressed for the surroundings.
Of course we all know it makes sense to have a Nomex flying suit, helmet and gloves, but circumstances make us decide what to wear.
Why is it that when you go go-karting for example, they make you wear helmets and overalls, but it doesn't happen at flying schools!
Comparing Massas incident and the HANS to anything flying, is a bit of a red herring IMHO. To relate it to a flying incident, a bird (or spring from another aircraft) would come through the windscreen, hit us on the head rendering us unconscious and consequently not in control of the aircraft.
Now this is where I don't get where you think the HANS would be any use to us....
The HANS system only came into play when the car hit the barrier.
The system will do nothing about a dirty great spring hitting you in the head, thats where the helmet does its work.
a. Customers don't want to be flown around by a pseudo Maverick wannabe out of Top Gun, with badged flying suit and black visored helmet.
Pax wish to have the short sleeved white shirt and tie with gold bars and headset look, complete with polyester trousers.
Pax wish to have the short sleeved white shirt and tie with gold bars and headset look, complete with polyester trousers.
Show me a survey. There is a chance that passengers would prefer to have a pilot in a helmet!
Walking from/to the aircraft at the flying school, race course, hotel or golfing venue, he/she might feel a little overdressed for the surroundings.
Either;
Why is it that when you go go-karting for example, they make you wear helmets and overalls, but it doesn't happen at flying schools!
Why is it that when you go go-karting for example, they make you wear helmets and overalls, but it doesn't happen at flying schools!
And it is up to individuals in the industry to make the change. I'll bet that as many customers would be attracted to a flight school that demands its students wears helmets than customers who are turned off. Now you'll say that the cost of the helmet is high. Im sure that the manufacturers can come up with a set of helmets designed specifically for flight schools that can fit most head sizes. Immersion suite manufacturers have done this. In fact part of the market for such helmets could be the offshore industry.
Comparing Massas incident and the HANS to anything flying, is a bit of a red herring IMHO. To relate it to a flying incident, a bird (or spring from another aircraft) would come through the windscreen, hit us on the head rendering us unconscious and consequently not in control of the aircraft.
Now this is where I don't get where you think the HANS would be any use to us....
I don't believe it is far fetched idea because as has been pointed out a collar for motorbike users has been developed.
What is disheartening is that a view such as yours is not unusual, you are someone who understands the benefits of helmets but are unable to change your daily working practice and perhaps because of this, are generally negative about positive steps to improve crash survivability.
Mickjoebill
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
What is disheartening is that a view such as yours is not unusual, you are someone who understands the benefits of helmets but are unable to change your daily working practice and perhaps because of this, are generally negative about positive steps to improve crash survivability.
As a 'qualified' Flight Safety Officer, I encourage everyone I fly with to wear the same and all visitors that fly with us have to wear a similar level of protection, including helmet and flying suit.
The problem you have mickjoebill, is that you do not realise there are some of us who take Flight Safety and H&S in the aviation environment a bit more seriously than you do. Because some of us do so, we see the faults where they exist in other areas of our industry.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Right, now the serious bit has been done;
So what are you trying to say?
a. The HANS was of no relevance as the car punched its way into the barrier too far.
b. The HANS allowed the head to go too far forward.
In fact, the only reason that the 'yellow' is there, would be because the rubber skirting around the tyres came down into the cockpit briefly, as can be seen in the video at about 50 seconds.
As for the rest of your comments...
If you look at the colour of the helmet,
The yellow on the tyre wall matting, if it was indeed from the helmet, would have come from the top. So if you are going to discount the matting bending over, the only other way the yellow of the helmet would get there would have been for the HANS to have failed allowing the top of the head to move from the vertical to horizontal.(which in the vid, it doesn't)
So that paint is irrelevant in your argument.
As for the rest of your comments
If you look closely at the pictures you can see that the tyre wall has a smear of yellow paint from Massas helmet.
So what are you trying to say?
a. The HANS was of no relevance as the car punched its way into the barrier too far.
b. The HANS allowed the head to go too far forward.
In fact, the only reason that the 'yellow' is there, would be because the rubber skirting around the tyres came down into the cockpit briefly, as can be seen in the video at about 50 seconds.
As for the rest of your comments...
If you look at the colour of the helmet,
The yellow on the tyre wall matting, if it was indeed from the helmet, would have come from the top. So if you are going to discount the matting bending over, the only other way the yellow of the helmet would get there would have been for the HANS to have failed allowing the top of the head to move from the vertical to horizontal.(which in the vid, it doesn't)
So that paint is irrelevant in your argument.
As for the rest of your comments
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Hey guys,
I do alot of motorcross riding... The types ive seen for racing allow the head to move so far forward and back, but it prevents spinal compression as they pack up tight under the helmet
They are a little restrictive for tilting side to side movement because in motorcross and car racing your usually looking mostly forward but im sure a helicopter type could be designed which would allow you to turn your heads and still have compression preventing qualities
If you came down with almost zero airspeed it would prevent your head from compressing down to your body, ive seen many guys trying flips and jumping land right on their head and walk away from it
Without these many would have ended up para and quadraplegic
We use a chest protection too which I could see in helicopters, it protects your chest and back from being punctured in a crash and in helicopters im sure it would help prevent internal injuries from an impact
I think helmets are a must, any accident in any vehicle could be your last. As a pilot your not saying your unsafe to fly with but i think it shows that your professional and safety is important to you
If the option was there when ive been a passenger to use one , I would always take a helmet
Maybe designers should look at race car roll cage design and crumple zone areas and incorperate crash cells into future helicopter designs
We should use helmets in standard cars, they really arnt so safe either, and not all of us can afford anything with airbags... my 72 datsun 1600 has none, and any crash I have, I know it will be my last
Just my 2c of cause, hope I havnt strayed to far
Simon
I do alot of motorcross riding... The types ive seen for racing allow the head to move so far forward and back, but it prevents spinal compression as they pack up tight under the helmet
They are a little restrictive for tilting side to side movement because in motorcross and car racing your usually looking mostly forward but im sure a helicopter type could be designed which would allow you to turn your heads and still have compression preventing qualities
If you came down with almost zero airspeed it would prevent your head from compressing down to your body, ive seen many guys trying flips and jumping land right on their head and walk away from it
Without these many would have ended up para and quadraplegic
We use a chest protection too which I could see in helicopters, it protects your chest and back from being punctured in a crash and in helicopters im sure it would help prevent internal injuries from an impact
I think helmets are a must, any accident in any vehicle could be your last. As a pilot your not saying your unsafe to fly with but i think it shows that your professional and safety is important to you
If the option was there when ive been a passenger to use one , I would always take a helmet
Maybe designers should look at race car roll cage design and crumple zone areas and incorperate crash cells into future helicopter designs
We should use helmets in standard cars, they really arnt so safe either, and not all of us can afford anything with airbags... my 72 datsun 1600 has none, and any crash I have, I know it will be my last
Just my 2c of cause, hope I havnt strayed to far
Simon
So what are you trying to say?
a. The HANS was of no relevance as the car punched its way into the barrier too far.
b. The HANS allowed the head to go too far forward.
a. The HANS was of no relevance as the car punched its way into the barrier too far.
b. The HANS allowed the head to go too far forward.
Slisoslid, my apologies if I misread your personal involvement in flight safety, as I read your original comments collectively to be anti helmets and suits.
Perhaps you will reflect on your comment that I don't take flight safety seriously, since I have fueled the question of adopting a Hans like device for helicopters and incidentally couldn't be more proactive and outspoken in respect to education of the media business in respect to flight safety whilst filming.
Mickjoebill
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Passenger Brace
On the same topic of head / neck injuries - When briefing your passengers for a crash brace position what is better for the head / neck;
1 - back and head against the seat and arms straight holding the seat beside your legs or,
2 - back against the seat and head supported by one arm grasping the oposite shoulder
We brief option 2 as we believe there would be much better protection of the head / neck in an impact!
1 - back and head against the seat and arms straight holding the seat beside your legs or,
2 - back against the seat and head supported by one arm grasping the oposite shoulder
We brief option 2 as we believe there would be much better protection of the head / neck in an impact!
