Bad weather accidents and GPS
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EN48 et al
I do agree with you 100% about the value of all of the modern equipment some of us are fortunate enough to have with us on the flight deck. I enjoy using these pieces of kit to as much of their potential as I can wrangle out of them and there is absolutely no doubt of the hugely enhanced awarenes of position available (yes, I too know where VeeAny is coming from with his reference to occasional demands being made). I wouldn't recommend for an instant going back to working without them. I'm flying nearly 20 years (a lot less than some) and still sometimes sit there with a silly grin on my face with the satisfaction of watching all this kit make my job so much easier and, therefore, more enjoyable!!
However, I just threw the question, and my remarks, in to stir the pot a little (they didn't really, but never mind!).
I do agree with you 100% about the value of all of the modern equipment some of us are fortunate enough to have with us on the flight deck. I enjoy using these pieces of kit to as much of their potential as I can wrangle out of them and there is absolutely no doubt of the hugely enhanced awarenes of position available (yes, I too know where VeeAny is coming from with his reference to occasional demands being made). I wouldn't recommend for an instant going back to working without them. I'm flying nearly 20 years (a lot less than some) and still sometimes sit there with a silly grin on my face with the satisfaction of watching all this kit make my job so much easier and, therefore, more enjoyable!!
However, I just threw the question, and my remarks, in to stir the pot a little (they didn't really, but never mind!).
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There was me mistakenly thinking this was a GPS based thread rather than another round of IMC flying in a single 
The existing thread contains all the arguements so there seems little value repeating them or having any more slanging matches.Suffice to say both sides seem to consistantly disagree. However even the most vocal voices are trying to make things safer, albeit with a different approach.
HM has a passion for his beliefs that at times his posts hide slightly
The scuba diving analogy got me thinking though.................
Basic divers are shown and taught to only conduct dives that don't require decompression. Even so some people get it wrong and get ill and/or die.
Perhaps to get some clarity you could post a similar thread on a diving forum. I wonder if experienced and qualified diving instructors and/or experienced commercial/saturation divers would advocate exposing inexperienced divers to recompression diving just so they can experience it, or perhaps letting them get a minor case of DCI just so they can better handle it.
£50 to an aviation charity of your choosing says they'll advocate training people to be aware of the dangers and act sensibly, rather than take needless risks, and that the qualified (who also work within the diving industry) will have an issue with training people illegally and/or with unsuitable equipment
The existing thread contains all the arguements so there seems little value repeating them or having any more slanging matches.Suffice to say both sides seem to consistantly disagree. However even the most vocal voices are trying to make things safer, albeit with a different approach.
HM has a passion for his beliefs that at times his posts hide slightly
The scuba diving analogy got me thinking though.................
Basic divers are shown and taught to only conduct dives that don't require decompression. Even so some people get it wrong and get ill and/or die.
Perhaps to get some clarity you could post a similar thread on a diving forum. I wonder if experienced and qualified diving instructors and/or experienced commercial/saturation divers would advocate exposing inexperienced divers to recompression diving just so they can experience it, or perhaps letting them get a minor case of DCI just so they can better handle it.
£50 to an aviation charity of your choosing says they'll advocate training people to be aware of the dangers and act sensibly, rather than take needless risks, and that the qualified (who also work within the diving industry) will have an issue with training people illegally and/or with unsuitable equipment
Last edited by Flingingwings; 17th Nov 2008 at 07:55. Reason: Mods have deleted some posts and now mine seems to make less sense
"Just a pilot"
I have worked with 'experienced' commercial pilots who couldn't navigate without the black box. The most extreme example was unable to find the Continental United States from the near inshore Gulf of Mexico. He was less than 40 miles from the base he was working from, maybe 20 miles offshore. This pilot had been lucky for a hitch or two, always in aircraft with nav systems, and his luck held long enough to finish the day's assignment. Then the LORAN crumped and he was lost. The part of the map at the top that wasn't blue had absolutely no significance.
Years later, when LORAN was commonly deployed in that employer's fleet, I sat in a ready room with experienced pilots who couldn't approximate the lat-long to the base some had worked for years. Not a clue, those numbers were PFM. Punch some numbers in (most units had a 9 waypoint memory) follow the needle. Hold departure base into memory position #1, and until you changed contracts, you never had to handle those numbers in again.
Then, I saw a pilot come out of some real crap weather following the needle. I asked why he didn't circumnavigate it, his answer "I didn't want to get that far off course".
I work with pilots now who consider the GPS a 'no-go' item, some have worked the area for 3, 4, 5 or more years. For EMS, a fair few of our given coordinates are erroneous, the expectation of accuracy works against you when that occurs.
I work with a guy who carries and sets up his own GPS, in spite of the fleet standard 2-GPS and a moving map system- and official discouragement from using non-issue, non-standard nav equipment.
Since we've started using the gee-whiz cockpit, datalink, etc., I find myself inside even more than before. Perhaps with time, I'll get back outside as much as before, but I wonder- looking at obstructions depicted, traffic, radar, course line, etc., is mighty distracting. The med crew has certainly adapted, I have to activate the destination waypoint now, so they can follow our progress, digitally.
Yes, pilots follow that needle the wrong way. Seen it happen many times- GIGO.
Yes, the illusion of knowledge, electronically computed and reported positions, seems to reduce workload and make some pilots more casual.
There's worlds of difference between data and information. Generally speaking:
Hundredths of mile, tenths of a mile, even MILES off course, is data, NOT information. How you use that data nakes it information;
Ditto for ground speed, ETE, range and bearing to destination.
The equipment gets better and more idiot proof, but it doesn't replace a competent, cautious pilot.
Years later, when LORAN was commonly deployed in that employer's fleet, I sat in a ready room with experienced pilots who couldn't approximate the lat-long to the base some had worked for years. Not a clue, those numbers were PFM. Punch some numbers in (most units had a 9 waypoint memory) follow the needle. Hold departure base into memory position #1, and until you changed contracts, you never had to handle those numbers in again.
Then, I saw a pilot come out of some real crap weather following the needle. I asked why he didn't circumnavigate it, his answer "I didn't want to get that far off course".
I work with pilots now who consider the GPS a 'no-go' item, some have worked the area for 3, 4, 5 or more years. For EMS, a fair few of our given coordinates are erroneous, the expectation of accuracy works against you when that occurs.
I work with a guy who carries and sets up his own GPS, in spite of the fleet standard 2-GPS and a moving map system- and official discouragement from using non-issue, non-standard nav equipment.
Since we've started using the gee-whiz cockpit, datalink, etc., I find myself inside even more than before. Perhaps with time, I'll get back outside as much as before, but I wonder- looking at obstructions depicted, traffic, radar, course line, etc., is mighty distracting. The med crew has certainly adapted, I have to activate the destination waypoint now, so they can follow our progress, digitally.
Yes, pilots follow that needle the wrong way. Seen it happen many times- GIGO.
Yes, the illusion of knowledge, electronically computed and reported positions, seems to reduce workload and make some pilots more casual.
There's worlds of difference between data and information. Generally speaking:
Hundredths of mile, tenths of a mile, even MILES off course, is data, NOT information. How you use that data nakes it information;
Ditto for ground speed, ETE, range and bearing to destination.
The equipment gets better and more idiot proof, but it doesn't replace a competent, cautious pilot.
The Veloceraptor of Lounge Lizards
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I've spent the last few days on line training with a new pilot. At one of the breaks we were talking about situational versus spatial awareness. As an exercise for the sake of it we went Exmoor Batttersea at night on basic nav aids and pilot nav. The work load went up, but at the end of the trip there was a great feeling of satisfaction. The newer generation of pilots who have really no experience of "old fashioned" pilot nav are the ones who I find have problems with their situational awareness. A couple of years charging around Britain on charter can bring on something akin to a taxi driver's "knowledge" so long as the pilot is prepared to teach himself by looking out of the window and comparing it to a map.
VH
VH
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A couple of years charging around Britain on charter can bring on something akin to a taxi driver's "knowledge" so long as the pilot is prepared to teach himself by looking out of the window and comparing it to a map.
Thread Starter
'Certainly, but do you think that some pilots don't refer to a map, relying solely on a GPS display instead?'
Yes. Particularly when the weather gets really cruddy and it's too damn difficult / dangerous to go 'heads in' to look at the map. Hence the original question at the start of the thread.
JJ
Yes. Particularly when the weather gets really cruddy and it's too damn difficult / dangerous to go 'heads in' to look at the map. Hence the original question at the start of the thread.
JJ
The Veloceraptor of Lounge Lizards
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Shy;
I recently flew with one who kept a half mil in his nav-bag and slavishly followed the out of date GPS. The Cardiff CTR expansion had happened two years before and he had no ideas of where the airspace was and its altitude limits. He was supposedly a pro. I sometimes get to fly in a 350 where the owner won't leave the ground without a line on his map, time lines and a thorough study of landmarks and terrain and his GPS is updated monthly. They both have similar hours, who would you rather fly with?
Too many of us seem to rely on the electric brain rather than our own. On another thread VeeAny described a flight where the kit gave up. Without his local knowledge and use of proper raw data nav the situation could have got rapidly out of hand.
I still start a stopwatch as I set sail and compare my times with the chart markings and I fly the latest IFR all singing and dancing toys. Just once has the kit got up and left, but the transition was easier to deal with, the weather was towards minima but I knew pretty much straight off where I was.
I Have no doubt that GPS has improved accuracy, I just question the reliance we have on it and a perception I have of the atrophying of basic skills.
VH
I recently flew with one who kept a half mil in his nav-bag and slavishly followed the out of date GPS. The Cardiff CTR expansion had happened two years before and he had no ideas of where the airspace was and its altitude limits. He was supposedly a pro. I sometimes get to fly in a 350 where the owner won't leave the ground without a line on his map, time lines and a thorough study of landmarks and terrain and his GPS is updated monthly. They both have similar hours, who would you rather fly with?
Too many of us seem to rely on the electric brain rather than our own. On another thread VeeAny described a flight where the kit gave up. Without his local knowledge and use of proper raw data nav the situation could have got rapidly out of hand.
I still start a stopwatch as I set sail and compare my times with the chart markings and I fly the latest IFR all singing and dancing toys. Just once has the kit got up and left, but the transition was easier to deal with, the weather was towards minima but I knew pretty much straight off where I was.
I Have no doubt that GPS has improved accuracy, I just question the reliance we have on it and a perception I have of the atrophying of basic skills.
VH
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They both have similar hours, who would you rather fly with?
The Veloceraptor of Lounge Lizards
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A rhetorical question, I hope.
Well one is an idiot and the other could drive a nun into smashing a stained glass window with a gin bottle so yes really!
VH
Well one is an idiot and the other could drive a nun into smashing a stained glass window with a gin bottle so yes really!
VH
