When do you start logging time?
Was he not cut out for a flying career then? Just a joke there by the way.
Sounds like he did well for himself.
As for 13,000hr co-pilots??? Eh??? I stopped logging hours at 10k. Didn't see the point.
Sounds like he did well for himself.
As for 13,000hr co-pilots??? Eh??? I stopped logging hours at 10k. Didn't see the point.
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Yes, after that many hours, I'm sure that one ground run just blurs into the previous one.
Slightly off-topic, but do you think I can log the time whilst i've got the button pressed to start the bl**dy thing? (Got to be a few seconds in that every time) Sometimes i'm actually allowed to do that too! Hard to believe, I know.
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You may as well, you seem to log everything else...
You may as well, you seem to log everything else...
Anyway, i'm not cut out for this whole helicopter pilot thing anyway. I'm leaving it to the skygods.
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Anyway, i'm not cut out for this whole helicopter pilot thing anyway.
I'm leaving it to the skygods.
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In ABZ I often left the cab to go and have a slash downstairs while the chopper was still turning. How do you mark that in the logbook? I suppose I should have just knocked 5 minutes off, or maybe started a stopwatch to time the length of my toilet stop.
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DNg, Is this the confessional thread, or what?
At least you edited quickly to delete the initial comment: "couldn't be arsed"!
At least you edited quickly to delete the initial comment: "couldn't be arsed"!
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Well, your Honour, if truth be told I didn't really think about it too in depth at the time....and by the time the day had finished I had long forgotten about the 'comfort break' on the Clyde/tartan whatever. In fact, I was usually so knackered I struggled to remember the destination.
I usually impress on people in an interview that most of my North Sea time was just sitting staring vacantly at the sea, punctuated by bacon roll eating or perhaps philosophical discussion. Although it looks like a lot of hours, I have about the same level of skill as a fairly new R22 PPL. That leaves people under no illusions.
I usually impress on people in an interview that most of my North Sea time was just sitting staring vacantly at the sea, punctuated by bacon roll eating or perhaps philosophical discussion. Although it looks like a lot of hours, I have about the same level of skill as a fairly new R22 PPL. That leaves people under no illusions.
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I usually impress on people in an interview that most of my North Sea time was just sitting staring vacantly at the sea, punctuated by bacon roll eating
Yipppe, I'm qualified then - when can I start?
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I’ve been following this thread for some time and it is quite clear that there’s a lot of confusion out there. It’s now quite clear that this confusion arises from the incorrect interpretation and use of terminology.
First of all, the original question, i.e. “When do you start logging time?” was vague and ambiguous. Most of the responders thought it referred ‘flight time’ and replied accordingly.
Quite simply, the definition of ‘flight time’ varies from one airworthiness authority to another and you must abide by the prevailing definition. The two principal definitions are from ‘engine/s start’ to ‘engine/s stop’ and ‘from when the aircraft first moves under its own power until it comes to rest after landing’. In regards the latter, I thought Posts #72, #73 and #74 were amusing (actually I wanted to say puerile but that may upset some people).
I’ve always preferred the former definition of ‘flight time’, i.e. ‘engine/s start’ to ‘engine/s stop’, as this is the period when the pilot is exercising the privileges of his/her licence and is therefore entitled to enter it in his/her personal flying log book as a record, or proof, of experience.
Later in the thread, the penny had dropped and then the confusion really set in as some though that the original poster was referring to ‘time in service’ which is the time the aircraft is in flight, i.e. airborne, only. This confusion is best illustrated in Post #87:
“It does make you wonder about a/c hours, when the tech log total time says 13,000hrs and only flight time is logged. None sat waiting. Non whilst pax embark/disembark. None from engine start until taxi. Say 10 mins a day, a/c sometimes over 15yrs old. Do the math.”
Here the writer is using the term ‘flight time’ while discussing ‘time in service’. ‘Time in service’ does NOT include engine start, it does NOT include taxiing, it does NOT include waiting for ATC clearances, it does NOT include waiting on a helideck during crew change, etc. etc.
‘Time in service’ is entered into the aircraft Flight Log, or Tech Log, or Journey Log or whatever it’s called in you part of the world and is used by the engineers to plan scheduled maintenance of the aircraft, its systems and components etc.
There are probably many reasons for this on-going confusion with terminology but I believe we old-timers may be largely responsible as we tend to use the term ‘flight time’ in a generic sense. We really must start to learn to use ‘flight time’ and ‘time in service’ properly. Perhaps another reason is that many of the old-timers are now working for the airworthiness authorities and are unwittingly passing on this bad-habit to the younger generation.
Also, it’s still quite common the see a Flight Log, Tech Log or Journey Log that has columns titled ‘engine start’, ‘engine stop’ and ‘flight time’. These should be changed to ‘take-off’, ‘landing’ and ‘flight time’ at the next reprinting.
So remember, ‘flight time’ is used by pilots in his/her personal flying log book to record their time at the controls of an aircraft while ‘time in service’ is recorded in the Flight Log, Tech Log or Journey Log and used by the engineers to determine the time the aircraft was airborne. They are NOT the same, they are NOT supposed to be the same and for any given flight they SHOULD differ, sometimes quite considerably.
First of all, the original question, i.e. “When do you start logging time?” was vague and ambiguous. Most of the responders thought it referred ‘flight time’ and replied accordingly.
Quite simply, the definition of ‘flight time’ varies from one airworthiness authority to another and you must abide by the prevailing definition. The two principal definitions are from ‘engine/s start’ to ‘engine/s stop’ and ‘from when the aircraft first moves under its own power until it comes to rest after landing’. In regards the latter, I thought Posts #72, #73 and #74 were amusing (actually I wanted to say puerile but that may upset some people).
I’ve always preferred the former definition of ‘flight time’, i.e. ‘engine/s start’ to ‘engine/s stop’, as this is the period when the pilot is exercising the privileges of his/her licence and is therefore entitled to enter it in his/her personal flying log book as a record, or proof, of experience.
Later in the thread, the penny had dropped and then the confusion really set in as some though that the original poster was referring to ‘time in service’ which is the time the aircraft is in flight, i.e. airborne, only. This confusion is best illustrated in Post #87:
“It does make you wonder about a/c hours, when the tech log total time says 13,000hrs and only flight time is logged. None sat waiting. Non whilst pax embark/disembark. None from engine start until taxi. Say 10 mins a day, a/c sometimes over 15yrs old. Do the math.”
Here the writer is using the term ‘flight time’ while discussing ‘time in service’. ‘Time in service’ does NOT include engine start, it does NOT include taxiing, it does NOT include waiting for ATC clearances, it does NOT include waiting on a helideck during crew change, etc. etc.
‘Time in service’ is entered into the aircraft Flight Log, or Tech Log, or Journey Log or whatever it’s called in you part of the world and is used by the engineers to plan scheduled maintenance of the aircraft, its systems and components etc.
There are probably many reasons for this on-going confusion with terminology but I believe we old-timers may be largely responsible as we tend to use the term ‘flight time’ in a generic sense. We really must start to learn to use ‘flight time’ and ‘time in service’ properly. Perhaps another reason is that many of the old-timers are now working for the airworthiness authorities and are unwittingly passing on this bad-habit to the younger generation.
Also, it’s still quite common the see a Flight Log, Tech Log or Journey Log that has columns titled ‘engine start’, ‘engine stop’ and ‘flight time’. These should be changed to ‘take-off’, ‘landing’ and ‘flight time’ at the next reprinting.
So remember, ‘flight time’ is used by pilots in his/her personal flying log book to record their time at the controls of an aircraft while ‘time in service’ is recorded in the Flight Log, Tech Log or Journey Log and used by the engineers to determine the time the aircraft was airborne. They are NOT the same, they are NOT supposed to be the same and for any given flight they SHOULD differ, sometimes quite considerably.
As Saint Jack has pointed out, there are a number of definitions of 'flight time'; in an attempt at clarifying the 'Annex 6 - Operations' definition, notes were added at the last major revision.
These notes were to make clear that for Annex 6 - Operations (not airworthiness = Annex 8 or licencing = Annex 1) the use of flight time was concerned with the fatigue aspects of 'flight and duty time limitations'.
The definition from ICAO Annex 6 is:
As has been pointed out by others; the recording of flight for the purpose of continuing airworthiness is lift-off to touch-down (the subsequent maintenance schedules make allowances for ground running time); the recording of flight for the purpose of licence qualification is usually tied to stick time (handling). All of this is usually made clear in the regulations, instructions and associated explanatory text - but it does have to be found.
A single definition of 'flight time' will always be too coarse to meet the needs of all parties.
The issue of the flight crew responsibility is usually dealt with outside the definition of flight time and is addressed in its own section; in Annex 6 this is:
Jim
These notes were to make clear that for Annex 6 - Operations (not airworthiness = Annex 8 or licencing = Annex 1) the use of flight time was concerned with the fatigue aspects of 'flight and duty time limitations'.
The definition from ICAO Annex 6 is:
Flight time — helicopters. The total time from the moment a helicopter’s rotor blades start turning until the moment the helicopter finally comes to rest at the end of the flight, and the rotor blades are stopped.
Note 1.— The State may provide guidance in those cases where the definition of flight time does not describe or permit normal practices. Examples are: crew change without stopping the rotors; and rotors running engine wash procedure following a flight. In any case, the time when rotors are running between sectors of a flight is included within the calculation of flight time.
Note 2.— This definition is intended only for the purpose of flight and duty time regulations.
Note 1.— The State may provide guidance in those cases where the definition of flight time does not describe or permit normal practices. Examples are: crew change without stopping the rotors; and rotors running engine wash procedure following a flight. In any case, the time when rotors are running between sectors of a flight is included within the calculation of flight time.
Note 2.— This definition is intended only for the purpose of flight and duty time regulations.
A single definition of 'flight time' will always be too coarse to meet the needs of all parties.
The issue of the flight crew responsibility is usually dealt with outside the definition of flight time and is addressed in its own section; in Annex 6 this is:
2.5 Duties of pilot-in-command
2.5.1 The pilot-in-command shall be responsible for the operation and safety of the helicopter and for the safety of all crew members, passengers and cargo on board, from the moment the engine(s) are started until the helicopter finally comes to rest at the end of the flight, with the engine(s) shut down and the rotor blades stopped.
2.5.1 The pilot-in-command shall be responsible for the operation and safety of the helicopter and for the safety of all crew members, passengers and cargo on board, from the moment the engine(s) are started until the helicopter finally comes to rest at the end of the flight, with the engine(s) shut down and the rotor blades stopped.
The regs in Australia say "Rotors engaged for the purpose of flight" So that is what I log. I don't log engineering ground runs or any other stuff where I won't fly. I also don't wait until the rotors stop.
I basically log engine on to engine off, the same way I bill my clients.
I basically log engine on to engine off, the same way I bill my clients.
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Oops, sorry guys and gals, reference my post #107 above, the penultimate paragraph should read:
Also, it’s still quite common the see a Flight Log, Tech Log or Journey Log that has columns titled ‘engine start’, ‘engine stop’ and ‘flight time’. These should be changed to ‘take-off’, ‘landing’ and ‘time in service’ at the next reprinting.
Now you understand what I said about us old timers, I really must edit more closely.
Also, it’s still quite common the see a Flight Log, Tech Log or Journey Log that has columns titled ‘engine start’, ‘engine stop’ and ‘flight time’. These should be changed to ‘take-off’, ‘landing’ and ‘time in service’ at the next reprinting.
Now you understand what I said about us old timers, I really must edit more closely.
Some African humour at the end of this LONG DRAWN OUT thread
Heard a few years back about an airforce pilot in an out of the way african country who had logged some 20000 hrs (yes, twenty thousand) over a 10 year period...
No one had informed him that it was actually supposed to be time spent at the controlls of an aircraft. Instead, he had logged all the time on the job...sitting behind a desk at the office, with very little flying at all.
Do the maths:
8hrs/day
5 days/week
48 weeks/year
10 years
I can just see this one in an interview at one of the big operators...
No one had informed him that it was actually supposed to be time spent at the controlls of an aircraft. Instead, he had logged all the time on the job...sitting behind a desk at the office, with very little flying at all.
Do the maths:
8hrs/day
5 days/week
48 weeks/year
10 years
I can just see this one in an interview at one of the big operators...
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bump
I didn't read the whole thread but this question came up today. I thought it was the classic definition of "movement under own power for the purpose of flight"
I was wrong.
In Canada at least its
I was wrong.
In Canada at least its
Background
CAR 101.01(1) defines "flight time" as meaning "the time from the moment an aircraft first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking off until the moment it comes to rest at the end of the flight".
For aeroplanes, the meaning is clear and for helicopters that can taxi on the ground, "flight time" is interpreted as it is for aeroplanes. For helicopters on skids, it has been interpreted to mean, "skids off to skids on". In this case, "flight time" and airtime would be the same.
Annex 1, Chapter 1, of the Convention on International Civil Aviation sets out separate "flight time" definitions for aeroplanes and helicopters. For helicopters, "flight time" is "The total time from the moment a helicopter's rotor blades start turning until the moment the helicopter finally comes to rest at the end of the flight, and the rotor blades are stopped." In Canada, some have applied the ICAO definition of the helicopter "flight time" for helicopters on skids.
Action
In order to clarify the interpretation of the definition of "flight time" with respect to helicopters as it applies to flight crew licensing, "flight time" shall be as it is set out in Annex 1: "The total time from the moment a helicopter's rotor blades start turning until the moment the helicopter finally comes to rest at the end of the flight, and the rotor blades are stopped."
In order to align formally with the Convention, a Notice of Proposed Amendment proposing a separate definition for helicopter "flight time" will be presented to the Part I Technical Committee.
CAR 101.01(1) defines "flight time" as meaning "the time from the moment an aircraft first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking off until the moment it comes to rest at the end of the flight".
For aeroplanes, the meaning is clear and for helicopters that can taxi on the ground, "flight time" is interpreted as it is for aeroplanes. For helicopters on skids, it has been interpreted to mean, "skids off to skids on". In this case, "flight time" and airtime would be the same.
Annex 1, Chapter 1, of the Convention on International Civil Aviation sets out separate "flight time" definitions for aeroplanes and helicopters. For helicopters, "flight time" is "The total time from the moment a helicopter's rotor blades start turning until the moment the helicopter finally comes to rest at the end of the flight, and the rotor blades are stopped." In Canada, some have applied the ICAO definition of the helicopter "flight time" for helicopters on skids.
Action
In order to clarify the interpretation of the definition of "flight time" with respect to helicopters as it applies to flight crew licensing, "flight time" shall be as it is set out in Annex 1: "The total time from the moment a helicopter's rotor blades start turning until the moment the helicopter finally comes to rest at the end of the flight, and the rotor blades are stopped."
In order to align formally with the Convention, a Notice of Proposed Amendment proposing a separate definition for helicopter "flight time" will be presented to the Part I Technical Committee.
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"the time from the moment an aircraft first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking off until the moment it comes to rest at the end of the flight"
Engine on (aircraft IS moving under its own power), Rotors turning (for the purpose of flight), until the moment it comes to rest, (Engine off, Rotors stopped).
As a PPL I dont climb into the helicopter for any other purpose than for flight, Im sure maintenance logs reflect further hours for the aircraft, although as I dont partake in ground runs or sitting on the ground burning money I dont log that time anyway.
However, I as the pilot in the cab starting and shutting down the aircraft is part of the flying experience (I cant get airborne without the engine or rotors turning) therefore it is for the purpose of taking off.
Must admit I dont check my watch until I actually lift and that is the time I put in my log book, I will however look at using the Datcon as its bloody expensive waiting 2 mins run up and 2 mins run down I could be logging toward my CPL...
IMHO, if that aircraft is running, its in a dangerous state and that requires a pilot with hands on if he/she is hands on then he/she should log the time.
Great thread which seems to have got everyone thinking.
Engine on (aircraft IS moving under its own power), Rotors turning (for the purpose of flight), until the moment it comes to rest, (Engine off, Rotors stopped).
As a PPL I dont climb into the helicopter for any other purpose than for flight, Im sure maintenance logs reflect further hours for the aircraft, although as I dont partake in ground runs or sitting on the ground burning money I dont log that time anyway.
However, I as the pilot in the cab starting and shutting down the aircraft is part of the flying experience (I cant get airborne without the engine or rotors turning) therefore it is for the purpose of taking off.
Must admit I dont check my watch until I actually lift and that is the time I put in my log book, I will however look at using the Datcon as its bloody expensive waiting 2 mins run up and 2 mins run down I could be logging toward my CPL...
IMHO, if that aircraft is running, its in a dangerous state and that requires a pilot with hands on if he/she is hands on then he/she should log the time.
Great thread which seems to have got everyone thinking.
extreme
Regardless of cost, one has to abide by the law of the land, should you ever fly in the U.S. you need to abide by the rules clarified in my post on page 4 of this thread.
I will however look at using the Datcon as its bloody expensive waiting 2 mins run up and 2 mins run down I could be logging toward my CPL...
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Gordy
Absolutely agree with the law of the land and the example in your post written by Rebecca (FAA) clearly defines this.
However for a thread to manifest itself into this proportion presumes that this side of the pond is a grey area in its interpretation albeit with conflicting local practices.
Flying in the US for "Cheap" turbine time (last I heard) is also discouraged by the CAA (Google:- Rip off Britain), and have heard stories of pilots having a disclusion on PIC hours, so will happily write off my couple of minutes either side. Cheers.
JimL's post clarifies the rotors turning issue though and time where Pilots duties are being conducted should be logged in my opinion...
However for a thread to manifest itself into this proportion presumes that this side of the pond is a grey area in its interpretation albeit with conflicting local practices.
Flying in the US for "Cheap" turbine time (last I heard) is also discouraged by the CAA (Google:- Rip off Britain), and have heard stories of pilots having a disclusion on PIC hours, so will happily write off my couple of minutes either side.
Cheers.JimL's post clarifies the rotors turning issue though and time where Pilots duties are being conducted should be logged in my opinion...
Last edited by extreme 500; 20th Jun 2010 at 22:03. Reason: read JimL's post
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If you come to NZ, you get to log skids up to skids down. no more no less. easy, don't have to worry about if the blades are turning, what you are doing on the ground or anything. Our pilot logbooks are a FLIGHT record, and you are not a pilot in command of a flying aircraft if you are on the ground.
Some smart arse will ask about toe in landings... good on ya. i always figured if you have to keep your hands, mainly on the controls then you are flying. two skids down and you could walk away, don't log it. balancing on those swing bridges in canada hopefully you are still flying the thing.
Some smart arse will ask about toe in landings...
good on ya. i always figured if you have to keep your hands, mainly on the controls then you are flying. two skids down and you could walk away, don't log it. balancing on those swing bridges in canada hopefully you are still flying the thing.
