Helicopter down in Saba/St. Maarten, any more info?
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Don't know you either brother but the fact remains that the helicopter wasn't necessary as the boat evacuation proves; but the helicopter was more convenient. However attempting an evacuation by such a poorly-equipped helicopter during the hours of darkness over water involves such a high level of risk that any experienced professional pilot should have declined the flight. There is a damn good reason why this kind of operation is prohibited: many people have died proving just how dangerous it is.
If you ever code I'll get you to the best level of care as quickly as I safely can - but I don't intend to commit suicide in the process. There are some risks associated with living in remote areas, difficult access to specialized medical facilities being one of them. It is your choice whether to accept that risk or not, and your responsibility to deal with the consequences of that choice. It is not somebody else's responsibility to risk their life as a consequence of your choice.
If you ever code I'll get you to the best level of care as quickly as I safely can - but I don't intend to commit suicide in the process. There are some risks associated with living in remote areas, difficult access to specialized medical facilities being one of them. It is your choice whether to accept that risk or not, and your responsibility to deal with the consequences of that choice. It is not somebody else's responsibility to risk their life as a consequence of your choice.
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The fact remains that operating a 24 hr capable EMS/Police/search and rescue helicopter, costs millions of dollars per year, not including the cost of purchase which is also millions of dollars. Just where are you going to find that amount of money from the tax revenue in the NA? It is not even a million people. Its not going to happen.
What can happen is having a commercial operator on the island that has a helicopter that is at least capable of putting a stretcher in it. It earns its own doing charters and tours etc., and when the emergency arrives it can be called out and paid for by the local government or patient(family). But even then, to have a IFR capable helicopter, the operator will then incur even more expense just to license, equip, and license the crew for such IFR. In my company's case(the company I work for), that just does not equate as there is not enough business (night flights, IFR type weather) that justifies that expense. So again, it will be a daytime only operation that such an operator would have.
And Sandy Helmut, it is still a "crisis" in Montserrat, and the helicopter is only in Montserrat once a week to work with the scientists only. Before the airport was finished, the 365 was a replacement for airline service due to the loss of the old airport. Once the new airport opened, it was ended and a new contract commissioned to serve the MVO scientists.
Maybe the Dutch government could fund a helicopter for the NA, but they are spread over hundreds of miles so just one helicopter would not suffice. And again the population base would not lead the government to think it was a wise expenditure.
Meanwhile, same for me, get me on a jetplane to at least Guadeloupe or better yet Miami if I have a life threatening condition.
What can happen is having a commercial operator on the island that has a helicopter that is at least capable of putting a stretcher in it. It earns its own doing charters and tours etc., and when the emergency arrives it can be called out and paid for by the local government or patient(family). But even then, to have a IFR capable helicopter, the operator will then incur even more expense just to license, equip, and license the crew for such IFR. In my company's case(the company I work for), that just does not equate as there is not enough business (night flights, IFR type weather) that justifies that expense. So again, it will be a daytime only operation that such an operator would have.
And Sandy Helmut, it is still a "crisis" in Montserrat, and the helicopter is only in Montserrat once a week to work with the scientists only. Before the airport was finished, the 365 was a replacement for airline service due to the loss of the old airport. Once the new airport opened, it was ended and a new contract commissioned to serve the MVO scientists.
Maybe the Dutch government could fund a helicopter for the NA, but they are spread over hundreds of miles so just one helicopter would not suffice. And again the population base would not lead the government to think it was a wise expenditure.
Meanwhile, same for me, get me on a jetplane to at least Guadeloupe or better yet Miami if I have a life threatening condition.
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The fact remains that operating a 24 hr capable EMS/Police/search and rescue helicopter, costs millions of dollars per year, not including the cost of purchase which is also millions of dollars.
Find some volunteers to sit in the back and pay a few pilots and you run it for less than a million USD per year
Obviously the aircraft still needs to be funded initially (leasing, financing, investors?) - you're looking at anywhere from $2 mio for a BK117 (although more like $1,200 to operate) or a A109MKII for $2.5 mio.
Those numbers are still staggering for a few islanders, I know but it is not as expensive as said before - especially when you happen to fly a couple of tourists with good health insurance in between!
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Buitenzorg: I'm going to go out on a limb and presume you are not from the Antilles. What choice do you propose the people of Saba (or other small island nations) really have in living there? The ONLY reason I am not living there is because I received an Antillean government scholarship for university as some of my class mates did. Not everyone qualifies for them and so not everyone has a "choice" or opportunity. Do you think my parents had the money to pay for university, cost of living, and plane tickets to get me there??? As a side bar, I applied for a scholarship to acquire to go to flight school, but was told there were too many Antillean pilots. Funny.
People of my parents generation had no scholarships available and the only eduction available was that taught by the nuns in the Catholic (not Dutch state funded) school. So again I'll ask what choice do you think people have? Sabans have done a good job of doing what they could with the island, it's only in times of emergencies like this that you realize you are in the 'developing world'.
Of course he called the helicopter because it was FASTER. The boat is two hours. I'm sure if the physician understood the risks involved with the helicopter he wouldn't have called on the pilot. I cannot imagine how he feels now about this and has to live with it the rest of his life. It was a decision made without enough information and the pilot didn't tell him any different.
People of my parents generation had no scholarships available and the only eduction available was that taught by the nuns in the Catholic (not Dutch state funded) school. So again I'll ask what choice do you think people have? Sabans have done a good job of doing what they could with the island, it's only in times of emergencies like this that you realize you are in the 'developing world'.
Of course he called the helicopter because it was FASTER. The boat is two hours. I'm sure if the physician understood the risks involved with the helicopter he wouldn't have called on the pilot. I cannot imagine how he feels now about this and has to live with it the rest of his life. It was a decision made without enough information and the pilot didn't tell him any different.
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What choice do people have but to live in Saba? Well, for starters there's St Maarten less than 25 miles away with maybe not world-beating but much better medical facilities, and with excellent 24-hour international connections to places with any kind of specialized care. What's to stop Sabans from living in St Maarten? I can't see anything but choice.
If the doctor who called for the helicopter gave the crew an accurate assessment of the situation, that the patient could be evacuated by boat but that the helicopter would be better and reduce the medical risk for the patient, then he has nothing to blame himself for. It is the pilot's responsibility and he is trained to assess the risks involved with a proposed flight and weigh them against the benefits of succesfully completing the flight. If, however, the doctor presented the situation as if the helicopter was the only alternative to the patient dying, then he is (partially) guilty of the deaths of the crew.
My experience in this area was that presenting medevac flights as "do or die" situations was the norm rather than the exception, and that people were inclined to put moral pressure on a pilot to attempt a flight against his judgement.
If the doctor who called for the helicopter gave the crew an accurate assessment of the situation, that the patient could be evacuated by boat but that the helicopter would be better and reduce the medical risk for the patient, then he has nothing to blame himself for. It is the pilot's responsibility and he is trained to assess the risks involved with a proposed flight and weigh them against the benefits of succesfully completing the flight. If, however, the doctor presented the situation as if the helicopter was the only alternative to the patient dying, then he is (partially) guilty of the deaths of the crew.
My experience in this area was that presenting medevac flights as "do or die" situations was the norm rather than the exception, and that people were inclined to put moral pressure on a pilot to attempt a flight against his judgement.
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Update?
Looking over copies of last week's Daily Herald, I saw an article reporting that the island doctor who requested the evac attended the patient on the ferry to SXM. I presume that had the heli come, he would have gone over in the fourth seat.
I don't read the DH regularly. Has anyone in our area who does read it seen any follow up articles? Or opinion letters? Any calls for an investigation?
I don't read the DH regularly. Has anyone in our area who does read it seen any follow up articles? Or opinion letters? Any calls for an investigation?
"After the Crash
For several days after the Robinson R44 helicopter in which Windward Islands Police Chief Inspector Alfred 'Churchill' Marsdin and his pilot friend and business partner Michael Huttenlocker disappeared from the radar at Princess Juliana International Airport and apparently crashed into the sea, this newspaper tried to talk with senior officials of the Civil Aviation Department in Curacao about the incident, but kept drawing blanks.
Our luck improved yesterday when one of our reporters managed to get a telephone interview with Directorate of Civil Aviation Director Siegfried Francisco. For that we thank Mr Francisco, but we find it very disconcerting that in the year 2008 as St Maarten prepares for separate country status there was no senior Civil Aviation official based in St Maarten whom the island's leading newspaper could have contacted for answers to some very basic, but persistent questions.
Equally disconcerting - and inexcusable - is the fact that, to the best of our knowledge, the first official squeaks from the relevant authorities about a helicopter crash in which two persons are believed to have to perished were not uttered until more than a week after said crash.
The result is that even as you read this, very few of the million and one questions being raised by the public have been answered by officialdom, but are out there living a life of their own, serving as grist for the rumour mill, so that it is becoming increasingly difficult to separate fact from fiction and rumour.
In our less-than-300-word story based on the interview with Mr Francisco, published elsewhere in today's newspaper, the public learns that the Directorate of Civil Aviation will be submitting a preliminary report on the incident to the Aviation Supervisory Committee, which will do further investigative work before deciding what to do with the report, which usually would be submitted to the Minister responsible for Civil Aviation.
Based on the interview, it is very evident that the Civil Aviation establishment in the Netherlands Antilles is under-equipped and woefully understaffed. As a consequence, it cannot be a happy camper as it tries to police the relevant standards and regulations. It is also evident that the full amplitude of that inadequacy manifests itself in St Maarten.
Mr Francisco quite correctly points out that accidents happen in aviation all over the world, notwithstanding precautions taken. We agree with him too that it is his directorate's responsibility to investigate 'what may have been the cause' of the October 22 accident and learn from it so that they can prevent similar accidents from happening. Our hope is that that investigation, though seemingly somewhat narrow, will be conducted expeditiously and will be very thorough. We also hope the report and its findings will be made public.
Finally, we hope there will be a much wider investigation into the overall civil aviation operations in St Maarten, taking into account all relevant issues that predated the crash.
Frankly, we are of the view that, given St Maarten's avid pursuit of separate status, a report on such an investigation covering most of those issues should have been compiled already and should now be a much-sought-after file in the 'In' trays on quite a few senior officials' desks.
Our primary interest in this matter is that St Maarten should not be condemned to repeat the mistakes of the past."
##
Last edited by WestIndian; 2nd Nov 2008 at 20:09.
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"And not just any STOL, Twin Otters only."
Haley lands in Saba with his Islanders.
Haley lands in Saba with his Islanders.
-
Thread Starter
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I find it unbelievable that he was allowed to carry on the way he was up until the crash.
I first met him 3 years ago, when he first started to set up the operation on SXM. I thought about accepting an offer for employment in his start up company, but after a few "business meetings" I quickly changed my mind.
At one point he told me had flown back from Anguilla at night in weather so bad that he had to get radar vectors from Juliana Tower. He even complained that they made him fly at 2000ft on the way over. I told him this was both stupid and illegal, but he just laughed it off, and said it was no problem since he had 1000s of hours of instrument time in fixed wings.
According to newspaper articles and comments on this site, his night flying was a regular occurrence, and the government used his services on numerous occasions.
How is this possible? How can a private helicopter be allowed to fly at night (and at times in IMC conditions by his own statements), as well as be used for commercial operations (tours, charters, medevacs etc) with the full knowledge by the authorities that he doesn't have the appropriate paperwork in place. (they are after all the people that approves these things in the first place)
As sad as it is, and as tragic as this case is, I have a feeling that if the seats where filled with a family of 3 when he crashed, this case would have been blown up all over the international news, and all the illegalities of this and preceding flights would have been given a lot more attention.
I first met him 3 years ago, when he first started to set up the operation on SXM. I thought about accepting an offer for employment in his start up company, but after a few "business meetings" I quickly changed my mind.
At one point he told me had flown back from Anguilla at night in weather so bad that he had to get radar vectors from Juliana Tower. He even complained that they made him fly at 2000ft on the way over. I told him this was both stupid and illegal, but he just laughed it off, and said it was no problem since he had 1000s of hours of instrument time in fixed wings.
According to newspaper articles and comments on this site, his night flying was a regular occurrence, and the government used his services on numerous occasions.
How is this possible? How can a private helicopter be allowed to fly at night (and at times in IMC conditions by his own statements), as well as be used for commercial operations (tours, charters, medevacs etc) with the full knowledge by the authorities that he doesn't have the appropriate paperwork in place. (they are after all the people that approves these things in the first place)
As sad as it is, and as tragic as this case is, I have a feeling that if the seats where filled with a family of 3 when he crashed, this case would have been blown up all over the international news, and all the illegalities of this and preceding flights would have been given a lot more attention.
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PJ-KSG
Just heard about the accident. Flew the police A/C with Bram around 2002-2003. I never met Mike but I can tell you that night VFR to Saba is a very stupid thing to attempt. I was also asked several times to do it and said no every time. Like the other ex-police pilot said, full moon with no clouds might make you think you could do it, but it would not be fun.
Bram, hope you and the family are well. Drop me a line [email protected]
Mike Lenihan
Bram, hope you and the family are well. Drop me a line [email protected]
Mike Lenihan
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Been there done that....
All the banter is pretty much useless...sad fact is people lost their lives in this accident.
Having had a similar experience in the Antilles some moons ago, I frightened myself to death when I temporarily lost orientation. Moonless, black black night sky
My point is that sometimes we just have to say "NO". The big problem is where do we draw the line. Most of the times we get bullied into a situation by people who have no clue about flying helicopters.
But then again, hindsight is always 20/20.
Having had a similar experience in the Antilles some moons ago, I frightened myself to death when I temporarily lost orientation. Moonless, black black night sky
My point is that sometimes we just have to say "NO". The big problem is where do we draw the line. Most of the times we get bullied into a situation by people who have no clue about flying helicopters.
But then again, hindsight is always 20/20.
Gatvol
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place with Island Helicopters in Tortola BVI to use their B222 in EMS fit if required. This seemed eminently sensible to me, using a SPIFR twin with room and staff for proper in-flight patient care. I wonder what happened to this arrangement? I heard on the grapevine that Island had some trouble with the FAA wrt. their 135 certificate but their website is updated as of this year so I assume that was sorted out.
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Latest article on incident
St. Maarten-St. Martin - Crashed helicopter flight to Saba not according to rules
Excerpt:
Crashed helicopter flight to
Saba not according to rules
PHILIPSBURG--The helicopter flight to Saba three weeks ago to transport a patient did not take place according to existing rules and regulations of the Directorate of Civil Aviation. The company had no licence to fly commercial flights between islands and was in the process of obtaining a licence for tour flights. However, the equipment and the maintenance of the aircraft were in order and therefore it was safe to have made the flight to help out in an emergency situation, said Transport Minister Maurice Adriaens in a meeting of the Central Committee of Parliament, which is holding session in St. Maarten this week.
I find it surprising and interesting that nowhere in the article does it mention that the helicopter was not suitable for night, over-water flights.
Excerpt:
Crashed helicopter flight to
Saba not according to rules
PHILIPSBURG--The helicopter flight to Saba three weeks ago to transport a patient did not take place according to existing rules and regulations of the Directorate of Civil Aviation. The company had no licence to fly commercial flights between islands and was in the process of obtaining a licence for tour flights. However, the equipment and the maintenance of the aircraft were in order and therefore it was safe to have made the flight to help out in an emergency situation, said Transport Minister Maurice Adriaens in a meeting of the Central Committee of Parliament, which is holding session in St. Maarten this week.
I find it surprising and interesting that nowhere in the article does it mention that the helicopter was not suitable for night, over-water flights.
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I guess the quoted statement from the minister says it all: it was an emergency and therefore no regulations have been violated. Thats because - as we all know - if you have a (medical) emergency on board, you can breach as many rules as necessary to safe the victim and you will be questioned but not violated.
That is of course ignoring the fact that the emergency was not yet on board...
That is of course ignoring the fact that the emergency was not yet on board...
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Does anyone know what happened to the company Leeward Island Helicopters after the accident? Did they fly more than one helicopter?
Mike worked together with chief pilot KB. The latter mostly flew from St. Kitts I think. Does anyone have any info on this?
Mike worked together with chief pilot KB. The latter mostly flew from St. Kitts I think. Does anyone have any info on this?
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A couple of years ago there was Heli St Martin which closed leaving only Mike based there, St Kitts not sure about but I didn't think there was anyone.
I wouldn't rush to set up an operation if that's what your thinking though, paradise wasn't all it was cracked up to be for helicopters atleast.
I wouldn't rush to set up an operation if that's what your thinking though, paradise wasn't all it was cracked up to be for helicopters atleast.
Gatvol
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There are some risks associated with living in remote areas, difficult access to specialized medical facilities being one of them. It is your choice whether to accept that risk or not, and your responsibility to deal with the consequences of that choice. It is not somebody else's responsibility to risk their life as a consequence of your choice.
What choice do you propose the people of Saba (or other small island nations) really have in living there? The ONLY reason I am not living there is because I received an Antillean government scholarship for university as some of my class mates did. Not everyone qualifies for them and so not everyone has a "choice" or opportunity. Do you think my parents had the money to pay for university, cost of living, and plane tickets to get me there???
Its a trade off. Saba has things that the rest of us dont have, in return they give up some of the basics we take for granted. Quite frankly I wish I lived on Saba, just so I would not have to watch the daily news.
In this particular case, someone else said it best.
All the banter is pretty much useless...sad fact is people lost their lives in this accident.