AS350 - Ec120 wind limits
Thread Starter
AS350 - Ec120 wind limits
Hi guys,
I may have to pax in either an EC120 or AS350 tomorrow in some extremely windy conditions.
I have a fixed wing PPL, and a little knowledge of helicopters.
Out of curiosity, is there a rotary wing equivalent of a crosswind limit, above which helicopters should not fly?
If so, what is the limit for each of these machines?
I may have to pax in either an EC120 or AS350 tomorrow in some extremely windy conditions.
I have a fixed wing PPL, and a little knowledge of helicopters.
Out of curiosity, is there a rotary wing equivalent of a crosswind limit, above which helicopters should not fly?
If so, what is the limit for each of these machines?
Don't worry about the windy conditions,both of these aircraft (in fact any Eurocopter) are magnificient in windy conditions, I always feel a lot more comfortable in a Euro machine than I do a Bell machine, especially when it is windy.
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Australia/Canada
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
why don't you relax and let the PILOT look after it. You remind me of a pax that I had once who got his bloody calculator out and asked me how much fuel I had left and what the fuel burn rate was.
Thread Starter
Let the pilot look after it.
Because I am also a pilot.
Because unfortunately, I've seen one too many cocksure pilots (including one immensely experienced South Island 500D driver who I thought was very good) wipe themselves and their pax all over the landscape.
That's why, my trolling friend.
I'm not a nervous passenger - I know I'm going to get a smoother ride in a helicopter than a fixed wing aircraft in high winds - due to my job - have done a lot of paxing over the years.
Now... to return to the question - 50 knots - intriguing - out of interest - I assume there is a point at which crosswind gusts etc might overwhelm say, tail rotor authority?
How does a helicopter pilot decide its too windy to fly - (sensible answers please)?
Because unfortunately, I've seen one too many cocksure pilots (including one immensely experienced South Island 500D driver who I thought was very good) wipe themselves and their pax all over the landscape.
That's why, my trolling friend.
I'm not a nervous passenger - I know I'm going to get a smoother ride in a helicopter than a fixed wing aircraft in high winds - due to my job - have done a lot of paxing over the years.
Now... to return to the question - 50 knots - intriguing - out of interest - I assume there is a point at which crosswind gusts etc might overwhelm say, tail rotor authority?
How does a helicopter pilot decide its too windy to fly - (sensible answers please)?
Last edited by tartare; 26th Jul 2008 at 07:09.
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Not here
Posts: 174
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Now... to return to the question - 50 knots - intriguing - out of interest - I assume there is a point at which crosswind gusts etc might overwhelm say, tail rotor authority?
sorryWhen does the pilot think its windy?, when pilot feels the conditions have reached the pilots cut off point which is hopefully before his "can't handle it, getting dangerous" point
Thread Starter
So there is no mandated point in the manual that says, don't get airborne above say 60 knots?
I assume that facing into the wind, you can handle quite high gusts, but once the machine is exposed in anyway to weather-cocking, or turning downwind... actual windspeed becomes much more of a factor?
I assume that facing into the wind, you can handle quite high gusts, but once the machine is exposed in anyway to weather-cocking, or turning downwind... actual windspeed becomes much more of a factor?
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Mrs Miggin's
Age: 47
Posts: 102
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The starting and stopping of the rotors on the 350b2 is 50kts on the nose which reduces to 40kts from any other direction, 350b is 48kts on the nose and then reduces to 20kts on the tail.
If memory serves I think the 120 was 55kts on the nose and both types have a similiar substantiated figure of 17/18 kt in the hover.
As long as you can meet the limits for starting and stopping then it's just the normal limits i.e of not exceeding Vne.
Flown both aircraft in windy conditions and have to agree would rather be in one of them than a Jetbanger but would think carefully about a pax trip in winds close to those limits especially if the terrain is less than flat as it can soon become unpleasant even for alot of drivers let alone the customer.
If memory serves I think the 120 was 55kts on the nose and both types have a similiar substantiated figure of 17/18 kt in the hover.
As long as you can meet the limits for starting and stopping then it's just the normal limits i.e of not exceeding Vne.
Flown both aircraft in windy conditions and have to agree would rather be in one of them than a Jetbanger but would think carefully about a pax trip in winds close to those limits especially if the terrain is less than flat as it can soon become unpleasant even for alot of drivers let alone the customer.
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: foot of a mountain
Posts: 293
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If it is a B2/B3, tail rotor authority is the least of your problems. We operate in very high wind conditions and gusting. I emailed EC after a blade sailing incident(lucky no damage-just a lot of noise) due to a gusting wind varying in direction and between 15-30 knots. The answer was that the 350(MR) will easily handle variable gust in speed and direction up to 10 maybe 12 knots in variation. Above that you must try and be nose in the wind or take your chances. As said before we operate in 10-15 knots gusting variation up to 40-50 knot winds and had 1 incident. We do try and ensure we keep that nose into wind as much as possible for start and shutdown. We also do mountain rescues in these wind conditions with the B3 and never had a tail problem despite not being nose in the wind.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Yellow Brick Road
Posts: 1,127
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
First, apologies for jumping onto this thread late. I note tartare's original query and thought I might contribute, being rated in both EC120 and AS350.
As others have pointed out, the tail rotor authority of the AS350 is awesome. You would need to watch out when you run out of right pedal in a cross-wind from the left, assuming for some reason you can't crab into wind on approach and you're hot, high and heavy. (Fixed wings have no choice but to land on the most into-wind runway with minimum cross-wind component).
Actually I only once had problem with a BA where the left pedal hit the stops earlier than I thought during sideways filming simulation, but it turned out that the tail rotor pitch links needed adjustment.
The Colibri is somewhat underpowered compared to the Squirrel but in addition you've got this huge Jumbo-jet like tailfin to contend with when fighting a cross-wind. The tailfin is great for directional stability during engine-out run-ons but I think cross-winds demand a lot from the small Fenestron, unlike the bigger one on the EC130 (Eurocopter once demonstrated sideways flight at 47 kts to the left and 52 kts to the right in an EC130 before running out of pedal authority).
Another thing you have to contend with in the EC120 is a lot more pedal input is required due to the tail rotor being a Fenestron rather than a conventional one (eg AS350). Eurocopter issued a notice to pilots in early 2005 warning them about this phenomenon. Keep this in mind on approaches.
Safe landings.
As others have pointed out, the tail rotor authority of the AS350 is awesome. You would need to watch out when you run out of right pedal in a cross-wind from the left, assuming for some reason you can't crab into wind on approach and you're hot, high and heavy. (Fixed wings have no choice but to land on the most into-wind runway with minimum cross-wind component).
Actually I only once had problem with a BA where the left pedal hit the stops earlier than I thought during sideways filming simulation, but it turned out that the tail rotor pitch links needed adjustment.
The Colibri is somewhat underpowered compared to the Squirrel but in addition you've got this huge Jumbo-jet like tailfin to contend with when fighting a cross-wind. The tailfin is great for directional stability during engine-out run-ons but I think cross-winds demand a lot from the small Fenestron, unlike the bigger one on the EC130 (Eurocopter once demonstrated sideways flight at 47 kts to the left and 52 kts to the right in an EC130 before running out of pedal authority).
Another thing you have to contend with in the EC120 is a lot more pedal input is required due to the tail rotor being a Fenestron rather than a conventional one (eg AS350). Eurocopter issued a notice to pilots in early 2005 warning them about this phenomenon. Keep this in mind on approaches.
Safe landings.
Guest
Posts: n/a
To agree with Ole Scissorlink. Pretty much what a pilot feels happy with. Obviously a pilot with more experience would be happier in higher winds then a low time guy or someone new to an area.
But in the mountains up and downdrafts can be more of a concern as I have flown around Mt Cook in some nice conditions to find myself going up at close to 3000 fpm. Now if that is happening, then somewhere in the area it's going down at 3000fpm. And that would be pretty hard to out climb.
I'm pretty happy in wind, but then it also comes down to passenger comfort.
But in the mountains up and downdrafts can be more of a concern as I have flown around Mt Cook in some nice conditions to find myself going up at close to 3000 fpm. Now if that is happening, then somewhere in the area it's going down at 3000fpm. And that would be pretty hard to out climb.
I'm pretty happy in wind, but then it also comes down to passenger comfort.
Tail rotor authority and cross wind capability are somewhat irrelevant unless for some reason the pilot wants to hover other than nose to wind. Once airborne neither come into play unless it is so windy that there is capability to achieve forward ground speed!
