SARH to go

[Bucaneer Bill]

Another facet to the SAR(H) programme to consider is what real estate improvements will need to be made at some of the flights.

Is there any reason why 3As could not be relocated? Why are they where they are now?

[leopold bloom]

Devil's Island

If it were me I would tackle Valley first because the engineering there is still struggling and it would be easy to improve on the availability and look good - it also allows the bidders OCU to be establlished in its permanent location and co-locates the new management with the old (mil) meaning that in theory any difficulties with the transition process would be easier to sort in person.

A fairly logical plan but not the most attractive location. I wonder how difficult it would be to attract the right people to up sticks and move there?

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

85% of ALL previous MoD contracts were between 3 and 5 yrs late

...presumably the other 15% were in the 'over 5 years late' category...

how difficult it would be to attract the right people to up sticks and move there?

Potentially very difficult, as shown by the problems that the civ companies had when taking over first the Hawk support and more recently the Sea King support. Perhaps by making it the first location to change, the SAR-H people would attract those who are really in need of a job and are prepared to go to Anglesey for it, and then recruit for the more popular locations later. If they have the same restrictions on them as the SKIOS people did, they won't be allowed to offer extra financial incentives to get people to Valley.

For the 225 (North Sea config):

Nose up: 12 degrees (8 if above 10000kg)
Nose down: 8
Lateral: 8

For stopping rotor:
Nose up: 10 degrees
Nose down: 6
Lateral: 5

Are these the limits for take off/landing or for shut-down? Or are the limits the same for the 225?

[SFHawk]

Are these the limits for take off/landing or for shut-down? Or are the limits the same for the 225?

For the 225:
12,8,8 degrees for take off/landing
10,6,5 degrees for shut down/start up

[steve_oc]

S92 slope limits:

Maximum nose up and down slope 10°
Maximum lateral slope 13°
Valid for all slope operations including rotor shutdown and start-up.

[Pennyroyal]

Newbie engineer alert

Hi all from a newbie with an extremely biased interest in the SAR-H contract. I am one of the engineering team located at Valley and find the comments regarding our struggling engineering section a little surprising. There were no doubts that at the initial stages of the SKIOS contract, Sea King experience was, at the very least, lacking!

If it were me I would tackle Valley first because the engineering there is still struggling and it would be easy to improve on the availability and look good

However "still struggling" does not quite cover SAR eng ops at Valley. Considering airframe numbers have at times reached 7 Mk3's with 8 people per shift. This has only proven the resolution and determination of engineers at SKIOS RAF Valley, who through professionalism and outstanding SAR ethos have adapted, via a forced upon learning curve, to become some of the best Sea King engineers I have ever had the pleasure of bodging a job with.

Then again crab could simply be referring to the fact that either new platform would make Valley stick out as an extremely proud thumb in the briar patch of Sea King aircraft.

I for one hope, amongst all my 32 colleagues, that some of our jobs will saved.

[ironchefflay]

i heard that either bidder would be looking for something in the region of 200 engineers when the time comes. sounds like a lot to me, but i havent thought about the breakdown, so not really sure how realistic that is.

if its true. im pretty sure there arent a readily available 200 people with the skills to take on the jobs. so im sure there will be jobs to be had.

[ericferret]

It is not just engineers with the skills it is also engineers with the qualifications. These aircraft will be maintained to civil standards and licensed engineers will be required.

One of the reasons for poor take up of jobs on military contracts has been poor pay.

Looking at one of the aviation job sites today gives an idea of what the difference can be.

Senior technicians for a military contract GBP30,000. S92 engineers for Scatsta GBP 54,000.

North sea pay for someone with multiple types sits at around GBP 46-50,000.

[Epiphany]

Which is one of the reasons I wonder if the bidders have factored in realistic wages for engineers, crewmen and pilots. Maybe Bristow were being realistic and the numbers didn't add up?

[RotaryWingB2]

Out of the two, I know which one I'll be betting on using realistic figures.

[ironchefflay]

well, as an engineer i know only too well the difference in pay. both in fixed wing-rotary and military-civil.

i was offered a job with FBH as a licensed engineer for £31k. I was earning more at the time as a north sea helicopter Mech. now with multiple types (including those on offer from both bidders) they would have to pay more than the current interim contract does which is around £5k less than im on now. althought the lifestyle change may be worth it to those it suits. there wont be many S92 or EC225 engineers current on type who wouild want to move onto lower wages, unless it gets them a move closer to somewhere they want to be, or if its the type of job they a looking to get into.

i guess its horses for courses, but if the Skios contract is offering £27 ish for a supervisor, then there is a huge gulf between the two worlds to overcome.

[lost horizon]

Geordie

Which one?

[Spanish Waltzer]

Perhaps a tad simplistic, and as a health warning I am not an engineer, but if I understand it correctly from comments above, the majority (all?) of the present SKIOS engineers at the various SAR bases around the UK are gaining valuable experience but are being paid less because they are not licensed. They are however a local workforce who are proving that they are up to the job. I have no doubt therefore that the winning bidder, once they have decided how many engineers they want at each location, will dip into those workforces and offer those that have proved themselves capable the necessary training etc for their licenses. This will come at a cost so those individuals will be bonded for a period of time. I am sure there will be plenty of volunteers so this will solve the need to recruit and also ensure a stable workforce during the transition. The problem I imagine is that the present numbers of SKIOS guys at each location is probably greater than the number required for a new platform - but that allows the new company the ability to be picky.

[nodrama]

offer those that have proved themselves capable the necessary training etc for their licenses.

Probably a good idea, but licenses don't get granted overnight....what happens while they are spending up to a year or more getting their licenses?

[Spanish Waltzer]

but licenses don't get granted overnight....what happens while they are spending up to a year or more getting their licenses?

Nodrama - the transition to SARH is not happening overnight either. In theory the preferred bidder will be announced shortly, the first bases to be transitioned are the 4 MCA ones which already have licensed engineering followed thereafter by the RAF & RN bases with the final transfer not til 2016/2017 (cant remember the exact timeframe). There is plenty of time there for people to be identified and training programmes put in place while they still provide the current service to SKIOS. I accept there may be an employment law issue over conflict of interests between SKIOS & new company but I'm no solicitor either so dont know the answer on that.

[Spanish Waltzer]

If it were me I would tackle Valley first ............
........From there one could just work clockwise round the country

Oh would that mean Chiv would be last to go.........how convenient for you crab

[ironchefflay]

lee and portland are part of the interim contract along with up north. the original plan was for two types.

139 will be binned in favour of a one type solution. ive been told some of the issues with it, but im not going to pass those on for my own safety as i dont know where i would stand with that!

I have never worked on it or operated with it so I cant make personal comment. except to say when one visited, it was quite a nice machine on the face of it.

i dont think those who work on it dislike it, i think maybe just not as capable as 92?

maybe ask crab about their availability, he seems to know more than most about it. i think a 92 from sumburgh has been down to cover for them before.

[ironchefflay]

about training engineers up for it.

it could cost too much take much longer than the company wants to wait. too many people not able to sign for the daily's etc wouldnt go down well. especially on such a small shift. and the CAA are turning down a lot of inital applications for lack of civil experience. (from the ones ive seen put in recently, dont know about generaly) then you would need time after type training if you dont have enough experience on type which i would imagine most of the SKIOS guys wont have on either type. If trained or experienced others are around im sure they will get precidence

i think those guys deserve a go at it if its possible, but theres a lot to overcome. im sure a fair few of them will find their way in, and if the money matches what a S92/EC225 guy gets now when qualified then im sure it'll be smiles all round.

[Coconutty]

What's the story behind the Sea King stuck at EGBB recently ?

Some sort of engine problem ?

[seniortrooper]

The MoDwere out of budget for that week so asked the crew to land and shut down until into the following weeks budget