Helicopter over Grand Canyon - which company wont kill me ?

[malc4d]

Dont think that they use the S-55QT anymore (if they did at all ). I've seen one here stored in a hangar, looks like fun .........


(tried posting a photo but i'm over 12........)

[B Sousa]

N-number : N17758Aircraft Serial Number : V55-396T
Aircraft Manufacturer : SIKORSKY/ORLANDO
Model : S-55
Engine Manufacturer : AIRESEARCH
Model : TSE331 SERIES
Aircraft Year : 1996
Owner Name : FOXTROT INC
Owner Address : 12515 WILLOWS RD NE STE 200
KIRKLAND, WA, 98034-8795
Type of Owner : Co-ownership
Registration Date : 17-Aug-1998
Airworthiness Certificate Type : Standard
Approved Operations : Normal

I dont think it has been used in years. Last I heard, and I dont know how true it is, was that it had a "hard landing" a few years back and then sort of disappeared....... Kirkland is Papillons "Home Base" so I only assume its one of their companies.

If you trace the history of Papillon it goes back quite a ways. The founder of the Company a Mr Halvorsen has been around the Helicopter industry for years. Im sure his life will become a book someday if it has not already. He built quite a dynasty. Today, as I understand it, the Daughter runs the tourism side (Grand Canyon Helicopter, Papillon Airways etc.) one of the sons runs the utility side ( Rainier Heli-Lift). I know they used to be a player in the Hawaiin market until bad weather did some serious Helicopter destruction (not crashes, storm damage).
Someone for sure will fill in the blanks. I flew for them under Dave Muhr and then Steve Adams. Both good guys. Times change, and we all moved on......

[hostile]

Now is the time to bring this business in new rise.

All old problems should be rise away. We have to start thinking about all new technology (aircrafts+training=Quality) what is in this business. All companies operating pretty much same type of aircrafts, which is very good. Some way Eurocopter take a big place of it.

Manufacturers are also very interested in to collect all flight parameters and other info in every flight. That's put us to point where companies need and willing to think all aspects belonging to safe operation. This is a carrot of safety issues. Like B Sousa's post is saying, there are no bad accidents in near future. Hopefully it's continuing in that way. It should be a goal anyways. (It is off course) Safety is not a accidence, it is long term work for quality work.

Hostile

[victor papa]

Hostile, I think Eurocopter somehow takes a big pile of it because they started with environmental friendlier designs along time ago? It amazes me that Bell and Agusta(excluded sikorsky as they are not really in the single/light twin market) has not started earlier with quieter models and now have quite some catch up to do.

[chuks]

Nasty things, helicopters...

Why don't you use a nice, comfy Twin Otter Vistaliner for your sight-seeing over the Grand Canyon? I think that would give you a quieter, smoother and cheaper ride along with two engines for safety.

[B Sousa]

I think that would give you a quieter, smoother and cheaper ride along with two engines for safety.

Watch out here comes one of those Fixed Wing guys...ha ha

There are a few Twotter rides:

Scenic Airlines

Grand Canyon Airlines

But this is about Helicopters..........Besides If I ever hear of a Twotter landing in the Canyon where the Helicopters do, I'm sure I will read about it in the paper.

[If Only]

Trying to get hold of Hoverjocki. Can you check your PM or email.
thanks

[HOVERJOCKI]

Hey If Only, i replied to your PM not sure if you got it, try PMing me again, i come on here now and again to see if any topics have changed.
I'll check again for the next couple of days.

[malc4d]

Last l heard was that the whole s55 Orlando operation was up for sale, including the manufacture and sample Helicopters....

[DynamicallyUnstable]

Well I was hesitant to bother posting but might as well I guess to clarify some things.

First of all, Maverick is the ONLY operator in the canyon that does NOT hire pilots fresh out of the R22. They have the highest requirements of the pilots including 300 turbine hours. I know that this is not a lot of turbine time but it generally means that the pilots showing up there had a turbine job before and have a lot more hours. They also pay their pilots the best which means that the pilots stay with them longer. There are a bunch of pilots there that have 5000++ hours that just enjoy the job, being home every night, flying nice machines (exclusively EC130's and the oldest one is 3 years old), and being respected by a company that treats them well. I know I have no complaints.

Secondly, Maverick has THE BEST safety record of any operator in the canyon. Never had an accident.

Yes, the "higher ups" DO review the video's of pilot flights randomly to make sure that everyone is doing things right, flying safe and following the routes and rules.

So no offense to HOVERJOCKI, I'd recommend flying with Sundance 1st hands down if we were booked any day, another great company IMO. Burl seems to do a good job with his pilot selection from what I see and hear.

If anyone has questions about Maverick, feel free to PM me as well.

BTW, if a FW is the way you want to see the canyon, that's doable but like B Sousa said, you won't be landing at the bottom... you won't even descent below the rim. And yes, Maverick Air (FW division) does fly tours to the canyon as well.

[B Sousa]

Well I was hesitant to bother posting

I dont understand that . This is one of the few places the discussion can go on without some moron spouting off. So far this thread has been pretty above board.
I think I have to agree on Maverick, as I said I never worked for them, but they seem to have it together.
Tour drivers come and go and although some continue to stay for a variety of reasons, the majority never retire there. Only one I know who has held the job for many years is RW over at Papillon. Just likes the tour business and certainly nothing wrong with that.
If we want to single out "A" tour company in Las Vegas as being at the bottom of the Barrell, I think the vote would be pretty unanimous and to keep this on line, I wont mention the name. As many predicted it has some serious problems.
So Dynamically Unstable, join in, its nice to see when pilots can actually converse without throwing stones. In fact whats the website for your F/W operation.

[DynamicallyUnstable]

Thanks B Sousa.
Normally I have no problem contributing to a forum but since someone threw out "what is this an ad for Maverick?" I figured I'd withdraw.
The website you asked for is

Maverick Airlines

I'm not into FW but the planes are very nice and the pilots that fly them LOVE them. I have talked to them at GCW.

[JimL]

************************************************************ ********************
** Report created 3/6/2009 Record 1 **
************************************************************ ********************

IDENTIFICATION
Regis#: 197AE Make/Model: A350 Description: EUROCOPTER AS 350 B2
Date: 03/03/2009 Time: 1744

Event Type: Incident Highest Injury: None Mid Air: N Missing: N
Damage: Minor

LOCATION
City: GRAND CANYON State: AZ Country: US

DESCRIPTION
N197AE, A PAPILLION EUROCOPTER AS 350B2 ROTORCRAFT, ON APPROACH, LOST
ENGINE POWER AND FORCE LANDED AT THE HUALAPAI RESERVATION, NO INJURIES
REPORTED, NEAR GRAND CANYON WEST, AZ

INJURY DATA Total Fatal: 0
# Crew: 1 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
# Pass: 6 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
# Grnd: Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:

WEATHER: NOT REPORTED

OTHER DATA
Activity: Business Phase: Approach Operation: OTHER


FAA FSDO: LAS VEGAS, NV (WP19) Entry date: 03/04/2009

[Sollyman]

I flew with Papillon last year and it was great value ( Although the dollar was better then). My understanding was that there were only a few companies that could fly into the canyon itself, Papillon being one of them.

[helmet fire]

I have just come back from Vegas and I did the helo trip into the canyon whilst there. What a lucky bastard!

I researched it and went with Maverick. I met Dynamically Unstable by chance in the office and it turned out that I was distantly related to an Aussie girl that was married to a Maverick pilot (lucky I had chosen Maverick really! )

Miguel flew my trip and it was outstanding. Everything about it was set up well - even the trip to/from the hotel, the briefing, the offices, the aircraft - everything. They gave me a tour of the hangar - spotless as you would assume. With so many B4s, (18 i think), they are the B4 fleet leaders and have regular visitis from Eurocopter on improvements, etc. They regularly turn over the machines, but rarely the pilots.

Though Miguel was not aware I was a pilot until after, he did absolutely nothing to raise even an eyebrow: professional altitudes and manouevres and great approaches. I felt entirely comfortable despite not having my own set of controls!!

I actually thought the Canyon was great but not fantastic - an experience I will long remember. I think I have been spoiled by other sites such as the karst in PNG (and in fact most other places in PNG too - hole in the wall, Gusap, and the valley on the western border whose name escapes me), the Blue Mountain cliff lines at sunset in Oz, the Barrier Reef at low level, Ayres rock, Queenstown and Fjiordland in NZ. Strong competition in other ways, but the other pax on board consistently rated the Canyon flight as the trip of their lifetime!

I loved the Canyon flight and would strongly recommend it once as an experience up there with the best in the world, and I have nothing but good things to say about Maverick. Thanks Miguel!

[B Sousa]

Helmet Fire.
Now you can tell us the trick he used to ask for tips.......or was there just a big sign in the aircraft. ha ha Hey your paying big bucks for a ride, your in Vegas, share the love a bit. $20/head is not going to break you..

Not being critical but most companies tell the pilots your not allowed to beg as its not "Professional" as the companies then proceed to screw the passengers eyes out in the price of the ticket all done very "Professionally". Even to the extent of "Fuel Surcharge".

At Maverick, I Dont know Manuel, but Miguel and I go back a few years. Hes a great Pilot and really looks after his customers.

Nobody has mentioned the name of the Papillon Pilot in the above engine failure. That is a rarity for sure and it seems someone did a great job.

P.S. having worked for a couple of the companies. I send my friends to Maverick..

[helmet fire]

Ooops!
Manuel is Miguel! Sorry mate. edited accordingly.

The tips trick shall remain a secret. Unfortunatley Miguel was flying myself and two other Aussies - tipping is a foreign culture for us tight bastards and he lucked out. Didn't even cross my mind until it was discussed on the bus to the hotel with the other pax.
I think he did get lucky with the two Canadian women, however they batted for the other team so the luck was confined to monetary gain alone!

[n5296s]

Grand Canyon Tours

I'm sure this has been asked before but search found nothing... and probably this isn't really the right place to ask either... BUT...

I'll be visiting the Grand Canyon with family in a couple of days. Been there several times before, but never done the heli tour, and thought it might be fun this time. Any recommendations for/against companies to use? (PMs welcome). Safety record is one consideration, but also "quality of experience" and a distinct preference for aircraft that don't have 73-across seating since I invariably seem to end up in the middle. (Kauai in a Hughes 500 with the doors off was a great improvement!)

Thanks in advance,

n5296s

[Comms Boy]

Heli flight over Grand Canyon

Check your pm

[Buitenzorg]

This thread brings back some memories, I flew for Papillon at the South Rim base in the early years of the decade. I don’t know Steve Adams but had the great privilege of working for Dave Muhr for a few months when he was senior pilot; although working for Dave was more like going to your favorite uncle’s farm and being allowed to drive the harvester when you were 12 years old! Great guy. Chuck Rush was Chief Pilot, the best CP I ever worked for. These two gentlemen, and many others, made my time at Papillon a very happy period of my life. I also eventually moved on to bigger but not necessarily better things.

About the quiet technology S-55T, it was tried out at the South Rim base while I was there (as well as at Las Vegas around the same time). I wasn’t personally involved in the project but it seemed to me to be a combination of good ideas that were worth trying but didn’t work out in practice.

On the good side, the aircraft really was remarkably quiet for its size and moreover, the sound it produced was rather inoffensive. Whether it was coming, going, hovering, passing overhead or to the side, all one would hear was the same low hum. No clattering, pounding or whistling at all.

The passenger capacity of 9 was the highest allowed without a 2-man flight crew being required. This is important because of the restrictions imposed on aerial tours over the Grand Canyon: the number of flights per year is limited to a fixed number so using larger aircraft will allow operators to continue growing their business.

Passenger visibility was very good with large windows and a transparent panel in the floor, kind of like a glass-bottomed boat in the air.

On the downside, the concept of limited upgrades to a very old design caused serious problems. The aircraft required a large amount of daily maintenance, to the point where it was hurting our B206L operation as all mechanics who might have helped with minor problems (e.g. a blown light or freeing a stuck linear actuator) were busy preparing one S-55 for service; even so it never was ready for the first flight of the day.

The main rotor had been made quiet by slowing it down and adding two blades (from 3 to 5) to maintain adequate lift, but combined with the old airfoil this gave the aircraft very nasty retreating blade stall characteristics, a real concern with the high DAs in the Grand Canyon in summertime. Whereas the LongRanger would give plenty of warning from increased vibration followed by cyclic shake, remaining fully controllable, one S-55 pilot told me of being rolled “nearly inverted” without any warning – bad for business if there are any paying passengers on board! The aircraft was slow anyway but this required seriously limiting load (I don’t remember it ever carrying pax in all 9 seats) and airspeed (cutting down on tour route for the same flight time, bad for customers, or increasing flight time for the same tour route, bad for operator).

Finally, the main transmission wasn’t up to the task. I don’t know if this was caused by keeping the original transmission and running it at lower speed or what, but every aircraft I know of (at least three) required replacing the MGB at about 200 hours TIS, an unacceptably short service life.

On proper reflection the (IMHO correct) decision was taken to stop throwing good money after bad, and buy the EC130 when it would become available.

Chuks,

I think that would give you a quieter, smoother and cheaper ride along with two engines for safety.

Not so. Cheaper and twin-engined, yes, but with ANR headsets for the passengers (all operators provide them) helicopters are way more quiet, and the Twin Otter being a large powered kite wallows alarmingly in turbulence especially if one is seated at the rear of the cabin. I know, I’ve flown to and from North Las Vegas on Scenic more than once.

n5296s,

In spite of my bias pro Papillon I would recommend any of the operators mentioned above, all are safe and all provide a great service and product. Individual tour routes may vary so visit all their websites, select what most agrees with what you’d like to do and book, you won’t go wrong.