Aerobatic Maneuvers - Definition of

[Overdrive]

An interesting post Mr. Lee

[DennisK]

Display flying

A lot to take on board Mr Lee, but certainly comprehensively addresses the issue.

BUT. If 60 degrees of bank is a limit, how do we legally teach the 'Max Rate' turn at around 65 to 70 degree bank angle? An exercise which I feel offers scope for advanced handling appreciation to suitably aware student pilots.

To answer the Display Manual item ... I am already up to display manoeuvre No 7 out of the total of 17 I have available.

But offering a display course ... that's a different ketle of fish and I'm not at all sure of the legality of that! I have raised the matter with GAD display staff and in essence they are supportive, but only once they have examined my proposed manual.

The next problem is charge ... what would a prospective DA expect to pay for say ... a ten hour course over a four/five day period?

In fact I am currently teaching my very first pilot (ex Pitts fixed wing) and to be honest, I'm using her to learn as I go along!

All input more than welcomed.

Take care all,

Dennis Kenyon.

[topendtorque]

Me thinks that this thread could become the most informative for newbies ever.

There is no doubt that many of us have evolved maneuvres which are exciting to watch and intricate to perform. They often need close attention to detail to be safe.

We should first think about what our POH tells us, I.E. how fast from stop to stop on the cyclic is allowed, Power limitations, rearward or sideways flight airspeeds, etc.

If one is never outside the POH then one must be assumed as never to be performing 'aerobatic' maneuvres? Perhaps.

One might be performing for an "airshow", or as an handling "display", but never cross the threshhold of acceptable maneuvres from within the POH when the type was certified.

One might manipulate the helicopter in a variety of 'displays routines' none of which engender approach upon the POH parameters.

I do not believe that the subject of 'Aerobatic flight' (for helicopters - rigid head included) need be worried about by administrations such as FAA or others, as one must contain oneself within the POH.

In the F/W world I think more definition is required. An A/C that is cleared for aerobatic flight would have +, -, G limitations beyond the utility catergory.
But to pilot that aircarft toward those limitations one must require endorsement, - in aerobatic maneuvres.???

After all there is no way that we could do a lomchevak or a flick roll in a thing with rotating blades.

I must amend and beg your pardon here, I have been witness to a flick roll in a R22, I still say that it should not be a permissible maneuvre.
tet

[Backward Blade]

Someone should contact the "Red Bull" display pilots, as I believe that those 2 drivers have/invented the aerobatic display certification on their licences (civilian) with the FAA and European agencies and only those gentlemen and only those 2 machines. As for the Military well that would be a whole different kettle of fish would it not

[Bravo73]

Just in case you haven't seen what the Redbull gents get up to:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGu45s1_QPU

[DennisK]

Red Bull Manoeuvres

The fabulous displays produced by the Red Bull team are surefire 'aerobatic' manoeuvres and well within the capabilities of the solid rotor head system ... indeed I was first treated to the display possibilities of the type, by Charlie Zimmerman and Herman Fuchs at Cranfield during the 1986 World Championship event, which Fuchs won. Charlie had won the previous two events.

Earlier in 1975 I flew with Zig Hoffman, again on the BO 105 when he performed the first full loop I had ever seen. It was largely due to him and his tuition, that I was able to develop a watered down display version on the Enstrom Shark at the 1978 Farnborough event.

Today however, I occasionally have mixed feelings when displaying various types. Over the years, I've had some highly experienced guys approach me suggesting that such flying isn't in the best interests of our industry, bringing with it a 'swashbuckling' element, hence my reluctance today to set up some kind of display tuition programme.

Overall I take the view that providing the required level of handling skill is present and the prospective DA has the right motivation, such flying does bring extra interest to the exciting world of rotary flying ... but I'm always listening for alternative views.

We've had a few heli display fatalities and I never want to see any more.

How do other pruners see the situation?

Safe flying to all,

Dennis Kenyon.

[Rich Lee]

BUT. If 60 degrees of bank is a limit, how do we legally teach the 'Max Rate' turn at around 65 to 70 degree bank angle? An exercise which I feel offers scope for advanced handling appreciation to suitably aware student pilots.

The FAA has been using the old Chapter 49 definitions. A 90 degree pitch down (or up or roll), split "S", loop, and barrel roll as helicopter aerobatic guidance in the absence of any flight manual maneuver limitations. A bank greater than 60 degrees would not be considered aerobatic by the FAA. Nor would a quick stop with a pitch-up of 60 degrees.

There has been a tendency by the FAA to use a 'reasonability' criteria. If something is considered a reasonable helicopter operation, like a quick stop or flare in autorotation, or max rate turn about a point; then it is an intentional maneuver required for 'normal' flight that does not require 'abrupt' changes in aircraft attitude.

As an experienced display pilot you know when a something is an 'intentional maneuver involving an abrupt change in an aircraft's attitude, or abnormal acceleration, not necessary for normal flight' and what isn't. Manuevers like loops, rolls, in-plane veritical 360 degree pedal turns can be performed without abrupt changes in attitudes, but are not necessary for normal flight. A quick stop may be necessary but when performed with a too abrupt change in aircraft attitude it borders on the aerobatic. One can quibble with exact rates and attitudes but we all know when a maneuver is taken to an extreme and when it is considered normal.

Though I do not have knowledge of every pilot action taken by the FAA for aerobatic flight in helicopters, I very much doubt that any pilot would ever be violated, or an aircraft grounded for inspection, because of a max rate turn at up to 90 degrees of bank as long as there was no maneuver limitation or restriction prohibiting the maneuver in the Rotorcraft manual.

Backward Blade

I am aware of the circumstances with which the Red Bull pilot and aircraft are certificated for public display in the US; and can state with certainty that Red Bull, the FAA and the International Council of Airshows worked cooperatively to mitigate risk and protect the public in accordance with all existing regulations. Listing everything the Red Bull team was required to do, and the things the Red Bull team decided they should do would be difficult here as the lists are very exhaustive; but to my knowledge the entire operation is being conducted with the upmost professionalism.

[Backward Blade]

Sir, by the form and content of your writing I will no doubt defer to you. I was by no means questioning Red Bull's qualifications. I was merely refering to something that tickled my memory regarding their civilian certification with regards to aerobatics and helicopters...maybe there would be some lingo in any-one of those "paperwork aerobatics" that you were refering to. No offence or ignorant charge was meant.

Fly Safe
BWB

[ShyTorque]

Interesting subject.

I was chosen to display the RAF Puma in the late 1980s. The display we came up with was seen as "adventurous" and in truth it did stretch the aircraft to its limits. The pilot's manual said aerobatic manoeuvres were prohibited, without giving any further guidance on a definition. I took that to mean no more than 90 degrees of pitch or roll.

The RAF procedure was for the incumbent display pilot to come up with a workable display and for it to be approved first at unit level, then by the station commander, then by the Air Officer Commanding. My display was approved without modification and flown successfully. We had a good, safe season and the display was appreciated by those who saw it.

However, after I moved on, permission for the display was later withdrawn following a tail rotor incident. Permission for a display including similar manoeuvres was re-instated in the early 90s, but another tail rotor incident occurred and as far as I am aware, it has never been flown since.

"lsh", who some times posts here, might have some more info as he was the crewman involved after my time.

[Buster30]

Dennis,

I have seen the videos of the red bull Bo105 and your Display routines. I think they are all stunning to see. Keep the dream alive.

Its marvelous that you are considering passing those skills on.

Kind regards

Busta

[Rich Lee]

Backward Blade Your post created no offence nor was it without merit. The rules are different around the world and I know nothing of what certification or approval steps that Red Bull has taken outside of the US. I merely wanted those interested to know that Red Bull went to great engineering lengths to prove to the FAA they could do their routines safely and the US pilot, Chuck Aaron, approached his training and conducts his flights in a manner that is most professional.

Great controversy surrounds the issue of aerobatics in helicopters and discussion that question when, where, how, and under what authority these maneuvers are conducted are always of considerable merit. Please accept my apology if my reply to you seemed as if I was offended.

[Backward Blade]

Somehow methinks that we were somehow trying to say the same thing. Anyways it is fun to watch, but me and my 7 ratings in however many varients will NOT be attempting any such thing, nor would I live much longer if my wife found me trying to do so. I usually find that a firm fear of god, (name your flavour) or of the engineers of the AS350 hydraulic system, combined with the even more firm belief that my tailboom and mast should stay attached at all times...to be the best descriptor/identifier of an aerobatic maneuver. But that's just me. Fly safe all. There are many out there that DON"T do what we do, in what-ever form it may take, that often think we aren't safe. Their loss. Great conversation.

BWB

[topendtorque]

I checked out the red bull site and saw some consistancy the below statement.

you know when a something is an 'intentional maneuver involving an abrupt change in an aircraft's attitude, or abnormal acceleration, not necessary for normal flight' and what isn't.

Particularly at the recovery from inverted flight on at least two occasions, I noticed quite a bit of, what looked like, "now which way from here?"

My dearly departed dear old dad, who I had the pleasure of checking out in the '47 and who used to fly around as many of our dear old dad's did, for purposes of aggression years ago, told me that a good flying display was,
1. Unpredictable,
2 Always precise,and
3, Forever safe.

Somehow the red bull display, on the video clip, was wanting at least in the first two of those regards.

I also have a question for DennisK,

I read somewhere some time ago, after whatching one of your videos that the aerobatic championships had a list of acceptable maneuvres, for want of a better description.

How do they arrive at those maneuvres? Say someone comes along with a new one, do they, for instance discuss with the applicant, how he might recover in the event of engine failure ? Or might he be allowed to include any maneuvre without discussion, in his freestyle element.

This could be conter-productive as many if not all of the judges may not have a shmick of the maneuvre, or its safety or complexity beforehand. Let alone the pilots skill or knowledge.
Therefore they would be ill equipped to judge it.

Having done gymastics at a reasonable competitive level as a juvenile, I am well familiar with - set routines which lay down maneuvres of a usually fairly moderate difficulty level - and feestyle routines which are expected to encompass maneuvres of a higher difficulty level.

all of which have to be completed with the correct finnesse, that is if you wish to finish in the finals of course.
cheers tet

[Rich Lee]

My dearly departed dear old dad, who I had the pleasure of checking out in the '47 and who used to fly around as many of our dear old dad's did, for purposes of aggression years ago, told me that a good flying display was,
1. Unpredictable,
2 Always precise,and
3, Forever safe.

I assume your dearly departed dear old dad meant 'predictable' rather than 'unpredictable'; and if that was his intention I am in agreement. I would also add a few other things to his list.

There are many aerobatic helicopter clips floating around the internet. Some are of actual displays and others are of practices and some are just plain reckless maneuvering.

There are also many types of aerobatic displays. Not intending to be a complete list, there are competition displays, show displays, competitive evaluation displays, military displays, and manufacturers displays. Each type of display has different rules and objectives. For instance, a show display is intended to entertain and the appearance of unpredictability is part of that thrill of a show display. Competition display requires the ability to do what you say you will do in the time you have to do it in accordance with a set of agreed upon rules. Precision is an important part of the competition process.

Display pilots do have days when they fly better than others. Small things can have unpredictable consequences in a set routine. A wind shift or sudden downdraft, a bird, a problem with your aircraft, or an ATC distraction. All can cause a pilot to fly a display with less precision than he or she would like. Display pilots learning a routine usually do so at a safe altitude and as they become more confident and precise they bring their aerobatic safety floors lower and lower. I have trained many pilots to perform aerobatics in helicopters and few are perfect when first learning aerobatic maneuvers or when perfecting a display. You need a lot of altitude to recover from an aborted roll that has pitch-coupled. When a helicopter departs controlled flight (and they do from time to time) during a badly executed loop it is good to have a little altitude between you and terra firma.

Regardless the type of display, there are always critics who would prefer one over another. Many will see a practice display of aerobatic maneuvers requiring great skill and ability and find fault with what they see. There will always be those who make judgments as to what they like and what they don't. They are always right of course. Who better to judge what you like better than yourself?

When choreographing displays I find it more useful to ask spectators what they didn't like about a routine rather than what they did like. I am sure the Red Bull team display (European or US?) would benefit from your candid opinion. Why not drop them a line and tell them what part of their display you found wanting?

[topendtorque]

I assume your dearly departed dear old dad meant 'predictable' rather than 'unpredictable'; and if that was his intention I am in agreement. I would also add a few other things to his list.

sorry, wrong.

if you wish to scale in the boring part, then go predictable.

to demonstrate with the extreme, I remember watching a '269 doing a handling display of a spraying exercises at an airshow, once for about fiteen minutes, jeeeesus. The next day he didn't even show, even though scheduled, talk about boring, and predictable.

I would also say that some of the most awesome and exciting F/W aero displays that I have seen had sequences that were totally unpredicted.

When a helicopter departs controlled flight (and they do from time to time) during a badly executed loop it is good to have a little altitude between you and terra firma.

Yes we have had this conversation from to time, on different aspects, However I suggest that the saguine and predictable long slow zoom upward to a roll which then departs from precision control, which possibly has been practised many times, is hard to explain.

Why not drop them a line and tell them what part of their display you found wanting?

sure, when I get a second or two I shall, no doubt they will be well forewarned.

I have trained many pilots to perform aerobatics in helicopters and few are perfect when first learning aerobatic maneuvers or when perfecting a display.

In the vein of the thread, could you describe the maneuvres, that fit the word aerobatic?

We have all been having some problems with it.

Thankyou.
tet

[NickLappos]

Predictable is in the eye of the beholder, but the aerobatic PILOT who cannot predict the next maneuver is already dead, he just doesn't know it.

I flew an aerobatic routine in the Paris Air Show once, and in the 20 or so times I flew it (practice at the show, qualification trials with show officials, and in front of the crowd) I was never more than 1 second off in a 3 minute and 11 second routine.

To support Rich Lee (who has done far more than his share of this silliness) if the pilot is not flying a rigidly practiced routine, he is in vast trouble. The Crowd should find him unpredictable, but his CP had better not.

Regarding the qualification and certification, the FAA requires a "Certificate of Aerobatic Competency" that is issued by one of their examiners, not an easy certificate to earn, since the examoner puts his or her reputation in your pocket when you fly. I carried around one of these for several years while flying various models in airshows. I know the US Red Bull pilot, he is a real pro, and nothing he does is without cool professional, predictable deliberation.

The FAA also requires specific approval for each demonstration before a crowd.

[topendtorque]

The Crowd should find him unpredictable, but his CP had better not.

Thanks Nick
That is exactly what I meant. The display should be unpredictable, but the routine as you say, must obviously be well rehearsed.

[Rich Lee]

In the vein of the thread, could you describe the maneuvres, that fit the word aerobatic?

My original response had more to do with the history of the aerobatic regulatory process in the US. In that response the description of a helicopter aerobatic maneuvre is implied by the old Chapter 49. Simply stated, the US FAA considers anything over 90 degrees in pitch or roll in a helicopter to be aerobatic. It prohibits, without approval, any maneuvre not approved by the flight manual or considered to be a classic helicopter maneuvre as contained in the curriculum of most flight schools; and/or anything limited or restricted by the flight manual.

Examples of helicopter maneuvres most authorities, military or civil, consider to be aerobatic are loops, rolls, split-s, hammerheads, 90-90 rapid roll reversals, Waddington flips, Jacques flops, DK's 360 pedal turns in the vertical plan, vertical pitch downs to 90 degrees with or without rolls, inverted flat spins, Lomcevaks, Susie's nightmare and several others - alone and in combination with the others. All of been conducted, with approval, at public displays around the world in all types of helicopters.

To provide further example, at Farnborough, the thrilling (at least for me) military display of the CH-47 display is not considered aerobatic because the aircraft does not exceed 90 degrees of pitch or roll. The AH-64D display is considered aerobatic because it frequently exceeds 90 degrees of pitch and roll. The CH-47 is allowed to fly to a lower floor and is allowed closer to the show line while the Apache must use the aerobatic floor and show line.

30 years ago helicopter aerobatics at public display was new and the interpretation of helicopter aerobatics at different airshows around the world varied considerably. Now, there are few differences in interpretation between Paris, Singapore, Dubai, Lima, FIDEA, Farnborough, or other airshows large and small.

sorry, wrong.

if you wish to scale in the boring part, then go predictable.


A display routine may look 'unpredictable' to the crowd below, but outside of practice or training, the execution of the routine should always be 'predictable'. One of the primary considerations in the qualification of a display pilot at any international airshow is predictability. A pilot whose execution of his or her display routine is 'unpredictable' will not qualify and will not be allowed to display.

[Backward Blade]

I think Nick and Rich hit the nail on the head. Finally a couple straight answers from those in the "Know". Should the rest of us need a more in depth discussion I would recomend you start taking lessons! But Rich, and I ask this with the greatest amount of respect...with regards to all the maneuvers you mentioned having been performed in all types of machines...WHO the hell was the balsy bastard that did a loop, roll, or split S in a 206 outside of combat LOL? And if the poor bastard that had to do it at that time tell's me so, I don't think I'm one to disagree with him, at least on a keypad! T

Thanks for the clarification boys

Fly Safe all

BWB

[[email protected]]

One element that was alluded to regarding FW aeros is that an aircraft would have published 'g' limits that should not be exceeded when performing such manoeuvres. Which helicopters have published 'g' limits? Which helicopters are fitted with 'g' meters to monitor the fatigue on the aircraft when performing aerobatic manoeuvres?

I was lucky enough to fly all the Lynx display manoeuvres and the aircraft was limited to a max of 2.7 'g' IIRC and fitted with a 'g' meter. All manoeuvres were recorded in the F700 and the fatigue penalty calculated and applied - thus reducing the life of the components.

I think the 18 hour gearbox that TET refers to may well have been before the 'g' limits were applied.

Does the rest of the helicopter aerobatic world follow similar procedures and if not, why not?

In a FW, 'g' has predictable, calculable effects on the designed life of the airframe - the structure itself is pretty straightforward.

On a helo we have TRGBs and IRGBs on the end of long moment arms which were never designed with aerobatic stresses in mind and engines and MRGBs that were certainly never expected to be rolled upside-down.

The ability of rotor systems to produce massive accelerations in pitch and roll, thus enabling many of these manoeuvres to be flown without chopping tails off would appear to have outstripped the capability of the rest of the airframe to absorb said accelerations.

Having just watched the Red Bull video, the pilot is flying extremely gently in an effort to avoid generating high 'g' and his rolls are beautifully smooth, thus minimising twist on the tail boom. He modifies his recoveries from the wingovers/pedal turns etc to avoid having to pull through the vertical on the recovery, preferring to roll to a nearer horizon and then recover - again minimising the 'g'. There is certainly nothing wacky or dangerous in that display - very nice job