Engine Failure on take off - do you teach it?

[flap flap flap]

Update:

I tried demo-ing one yesterday with a student. With 10 gallons on board... got to 250-300 agl, 60 kts, reduced power to 20" then rolled off the throttle and entered auto. Ground comes up awful quick. You got to be on the ball, but there is enough time to flare and do a power recovery, albeit with the horn blaring. I certainly wouldn't do it any slower or lower or heavier, and I certainly wouldn't let the student have a go at one as there ain't much time during the maneouver to f*ck up.

[Billywizz]

fff 11 April

I am an experienced instructor with over 1,600 hours, not a PPL newbie. And, no I would never attempt IMC in an R22

fff this post 16 April

In the JAA PPL syllabus there is a requirement to teach this, - does anyone actually do it? I have over 1,000 hours teaching in the R22 and I wouldn't dream of even doing a demo of this.

Confused?

[flap flap flap]

What's so confusing? I have 1,600 hours total, over 1,000 in the R22, the rest on other types.

[Billywizz]

fff I was asking the question of you.

You claim to be experienced and don't know if engine failure after T/O is taught, you then say you wouldn't dream of doing one, but after seeking advice from unknown sources on the internet you demonstrate one three days later.
On another thread you stated

I do quite a few off airfield landings with my students, just pick a field/area, make sure there's no-one around and go for it. If someone reports you, just say you were doing "emergency training", not much the CAA can say against that. Confined areas is in the JAA syllabus, hardly anyone has ever been prosecuted over rule 5 in a heli, and how many members of the public are able to prove how close you were anyway?

All JAR training is to be carried out at licensed airfields including confined areas. Are you aware of 'Duty of care' to your students, let alone any insurance implications of your actions

[flap flap flap]

I have never met ANY 'standard PPL' FI who teaches this maneuver in the R22, nor ANY R22 PPL who has had it demonstrated to them, hence I asked the question.

I have a lot of experience of teaching in a non-JAA environment, and I wanted to know what other JAA FIs thought of this maneuver.

I don't touchdown on off-airfield landings, and the flight always starts and ends at a licensed airfield, hence it's legal.

I didn't demonstrate the EFOTA it on the basis of posters here, I did it from my experience of doing thousands of autos in the R22.

[DBChopper]

It's probably taboo to even suggest this, but am I the only person who thinks that maybe we spend far too much time worrying about engine failures in difficult-to-survive situations, when they very rarely happen?

I couldn't agree more Whirly. It does seem like a taboo subject but it certainly shouldn't be. I have less than 200hrs total time and I feel that an inordinate amount of my training has been spent plummetting to the earth not really knowing whether I or the instructor is really flying the thing, when statistically I am more likely to fly into cumulo-granite. Now actually, I am very unlikely to fly into the ground as I am such a big coward when it comes to flying when there is anything other than just sky in the sky, but my point is, as made by Whirly, that surely we should be training with more emphasis on the accidents that are actually happening rather than the ones that exceptionally rarely do.

Don't get me wrong, PFLs and EOLs are a vital part of the training process and yes, I have had an EFATO demonstrated along with low-level EOLs and they were hugely useful as a demo, but I do think we do engine-off in the circuit to death (no pun intended) with students who, with such low experience, are unlikey to really peg them.

DBChopper

[Batidora]

Engine failure during transition from hover

An interesting thread, which seems to reflect the different experience levels in the industry. Firstly I only know of one true engine failure taking place with an R22, the rest have been down to pilot handling skills, normally related to lack of CARBHEAT.

Students should be taught to transition within the limits of the avoid curve, and be able to deal with engine failure throughout all stages of the transition. That includes the initial stages of transition below 10ft.

In the initial phase below 10ft I demonstrate a gentle flair whilst lowering the lever, level the R22 and run on landing.

My students rotate at 45kts and select a 60kt attitude, therefore by 80-100ft they are at 60kts. If an engine failure takes place in this short period, the student has sufficient speed to end up in autorotation at 40kts.... not perfect but a constant attitude and leaving the ship with a flat profile... the same speed you should be using for autos at night...

Once at 60kt the student needs to get used to the large movement required to lower the lever to the floor... I control carbheat and call the verbal warning "practice engine failure GO" the student lowers the lever immediately to to the floor and enters auto, I close throttle, they check up lever as required. I normally practice this at 300ft.

Would NOT suggest that you close throttle before lowering the lever. I teach this to both my PPL and CPL students.

Another thought... what would you do if engine failed during towering take off.....

[jellycopter]

"It's probably taboo to even suggest this, but am I the only person who thinks that maybe we spend far too much time worrying about engine failures in difficult-to-survive situations, when they very rarely happen? "

I had the turbine let go in an AB205 (UH1) at 150ft and 60kts at in a full power climb.

I had the exhaust valve stick open effectively stopping the engine at 60kts and 100ft, just as I'd reduced power to 'reduce stress on the engine'.

Self-same failure occured to student of mine the day after we'd completed his FAA type transition where Engine Failures formed a large part of the training. As a 200 hour TT PPL(H) with about 6 hours on type, he stuck it on the ground without a scratch!

There's only one substitute for training, and that's more training! These failures do occur and should be practiced regularly in a well-controlled manner. I'm just glad I don't have to practice these that often in the R22!

JJ

(Edited to correct PP Grammar)