Engine Failure on take off - do you teach it?
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Engine Failure on take off - do you teach it?
In the JAA PPL syllabus there is a requirement to teach this, - does anyone actually do it? I have over 1,000 hours teaching in the R22 and I wouldn't dream of even doing a demo of this.
Does anyone teach this in the R22? If so, what approach/method do you use?
PS - by "take off" I mean when you are transitioning from the hover to forward flight.
Does anyone teach this in the R22? If so, what approach/method do you use?
PS - by "take off" I mean when you are transitioning from the hover to forward flight.
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Can't see what the problem is. It depends on your speed when the engine fails but it's a 'skids level' run on landing if suitable ground. If not suitable ground it's a 'skids level' run on landing. 
!!! No chance of a go around, LOL
!!! No chance of a go around, LOL
Bob
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I've had an engine failure on takeoff on every checkride I ever remember taking, and had plenty of them in training. If you're not teaching them, you're shortchanging your students.
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I would teach them alot during CFI training in the US. As Gomer says, if you dont teach it, one day that might be where it quits on them.
Just remember to brief your student thoroughly, be prepared and above all only do it when you are comfortable. If all the precautions are thought about and acted upon it can be no less dangerous that the full down itself.
I would only suprise my students with a thorttle chop when i knew they had the maneuver drilled down to pure motor skills. I never got caught out and always had nice, smooth successful landings - All in an R22.
I only had 1000 hours when i was teaching these, but im so glad i did, because i now have piece of mind knowing that one day of it happens to myself or one of my students, they now stand a better chance of walking away.
Oh and in training i would previoulsly lower the collective slightly just before roll off to get the MAP to 21" -Any higher was out of my comfort zone.
Remember its not IF it happens, its WHEN it happens.
R22
Just remember to brief your student thoroughly, be prepared and above all only do it when you are comfortable. If all the precautions are thought about and acted upon it can be no less dangerous that the full down itself.
I would only suprise my students with a thorttle chop when i knew they had the maneuver drilled down to pure motor skills. I never got caught out and always had nice, smooth successful landings - All in an R22.
I only had 1000 hours when i was teaching these, but im so glad i did, because i now have piece of mind knowing that one day of it happens to myself or one of my students, they now stand a better chance of walking away.
Oh and in training i would previoulsly lower the collective slightly just before roll off to get the MAP to 21" -Any higher was out of my comfort zone.
Remember its not IF it happens, its WHEN it happens.
R22
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What is the correct procedure for a total loss of power in transition from hover to flight at around 100 feet in an R-22?...(40kts for climb out with max power applied)
Logic suggests that its going to be a case of getting the collective down, pushing the cyclic forwards to gain some airspeed (perhaps might struggle to reach 60kts) and prepare for a run on landing with limited peddle control...
Oh, and switch off the fuel and call a Mayday
Im sure we would all be more confident if we could practice engine offs to the ground, but I guess the cost of all those bent helicopters is not worth it
Logic suggests that its going to be a case of getting the collective down, pushing the cyclic forwards to gain some airspeed (perhaps might struggle to reach 60kts) and prepare for a run on landing with limited peddle control...
Oh, and switch off the fuel and call a Mayday
Im sure we would all be more confident if we could practice engine offs to the ground, but I guess the cost of all those bent helicopters is not worth it
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I've had an engine failure on takeoff on every checkride I ever remember taking, and had plenty of them in training. If you're not teaching them, you're shortchanging your students
Im interested to know what type you are talking about?
I did teach EFATO's to students in the R22, but only to a hover recovery, cos if they can get it to hover height maintaining airspeed and RRPM that is survivable. Unless you are a Robinson test pilot that does this every day it would get bent very quickly. In an R44, or B206 etc. its a different matter, they have the required inertia to do it safely.
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Tegwin,
40 kts is not the recomended climb speed, look at the avoid curve!! If it all goes quiet at 40 kts and 100 ft, and you push the cyclic forward the RRPM will decay rapidly!
You will not achieve 60 kts!! You should hold what airspeed you have and cushion with the collective for the last few feet.
BC.
40 kts is not the recomended climb speed, look at the avoid curve!! If it all goes quiet at 40 kts and 100 ft, and you push the cyclic forward the RRPM will decay rapidly!
You will not achieve 60 kts!! You should hold what airspeed you have and cushion with the collective for the last few feet.
BC.
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Those that brag about doing those during their checkrides and training are almost certainly talking about doing them in Bell 2 bladed helicopters where it becomes a fairly simple and easy manuver . . . . . lots of intertia, even in the 407 that has lower intertia it's not so complicated, but . . . . in an R22 I'm sure it's a whole different story, that rotor will to zero in a nanosecond!
No, don't push forward!
I haven't done them in R22s, but have practiced numerous engine-offs all the way up the transition slope in Squirrels, and they can be done easily.
Of course, if it happened without forewarning when fully loaded it might be a different story!
The basic principles are easily seen if you consider the opposite 'ends' of your transition from hover to steady climb:
Taxiing auto - freeze collective, keep tracking the way you're heading, settle, cushion.
Steady climb - Lower collective smartly and fully, adopt auto attitude and IAS, wait, flare, level, cushion.
In between, there's obviously a sliding scale of things you do, 'morphing', if you like, between the two extremes.
At 20 kts and 20 ft, say, you'd be able to get the lever down a bit and flare a bit, giving it away when the tail's nearing the ground to run on (or hook in really hard to get zero speed if the ground's not favourable).
At 40 kts, 50 ft (for example), you're probably going to be able to get the lever fully down and get a decent flare in too.
I haven't done them in R22s, but have practiced numerous engine-offs all the way up the transition slope in Squirrels, and they can be done easily.
Of course, if it happened without forewarning when fully loaded it might be a different story!
The basic principles are easily seen if you consider the opposite 'ends' of your transition from hover to steady climb:
Taxiing auto - freeze collective, keep tracking the way you're heading, settle, cushion.
Steady climb - Lower collective smartly and fully, adopt auto attitude and IAS, wait, flare, level, cushion.
In between, there's obviously a sliding scale of things you do, 'morphing', if you like, between the two extremes.
At 20 kts and 20 ft, say, you'd be able to get the lever down a bit and flare a bit, giving it away when the tail's nearing the ground to run on (or hook in really hard to get zero speed if the ground's not favourable).
At 40 kts, 50 ft (for example), you're probably going to be able to get the lever fully down and get a decent flare in too.
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If you are ever at Bell, and your instructor softly says "FL" long on the radio, you are about to get one. While "FL" may mean Florida to some, it means forced landing in that part of Texas. Not being the sharpest knife in the drawer, it took me three or four of these before I figured it out. Of course, I didn't let on, so I am always listening for it, and especially prepared on a flat disk departure from spot 1 on lane four at the Bell practice area. The FL that did surprise me was off the elevated platform there, two years ago.
George
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Back in 82 the US Army did not teach it, back then I did not know any better either. PHI in 89 taught you engine failures from everywhere. The 206 was easy with all that blade inertia. I have never had a failure however I do feel more confident now. And yes I teach it.
Last edited by before landing check list; 17th Apr 2008 at 13:50.
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I teach these now, in a CFI course, or rather I should say I demonstrate these now and let the student do one or two. We don't teach them so that our students can do them with proficiency, rather we want to expose them to what it will be like. They get to do it, but not over and over till its second nature.
150 ft min agl, 60kts min airspeed, so even then its not a 100 ft 40 knot situation. I personally will not do them from lower/slower.
No pitch pull, no pushing forward for airspeed. Thorougly briefed and demonstrated before hand so as to avoid any confusion. I do this with each CFI student I've taught and I think I would be doing them a disservice if I didn't.
If you mean a hover to forward flight then its essentially a hover auto with forward movement, you should ideally be skids aligned with movement and shouldn't pose to much of an issue.
150 ft min agl, 60kts min airspeed, so even then its not a 100 ft 40 knot situation. I personally will not do them from lower/slower.
No pitch pull, no pushing forward for airspeed. Thorougly briefed and demonstrated before hand so as to avoid any confusion. I do this with each CFI student I've taught and I think I would be doing them a disservice if I didn't.
If you mean a hover to forward flight then its essentially a hover auto with forward movement, you should ideally be skids aligned with movement and shouldn't pose to much of an issue.
They are also something that can be worked up to, ie start with taxi autos and get a little higher and faster each time.
Although we don't lower the collective or flare in taxiing autos, you will find once you've got that little bit of height and speed it feels natural to do so, which is a good thing because you need to!
Not fully, of course, but more so the higher and faster you get.
Although we don't lower the collective or flare in taxiing autos, you will find once you've got that little bit of height and speed it feels natural to do so, which is a good thing because you need to!
Not fully, of course, but more so the higher and faster you get.
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A couple of years ago, one of our drivers had one just after take off, reaching for the coffee mug, fifty feet, thirty knots, early wet season time, cool morning, just over a massive river with mobs of trees – silence – a very experienced gent, luckily, threaded down through a miniscule gap and landed on a sandbank, beside a startled croc. Well so he says.
However there was no cause found and it took a good while to fly it back out. Carby Ice? Probably.
Practice autos on take off? Very good idea! Another good idea is to check your Carby Air Temp just after you take off and are winding off power especially in a humid environment.
Initially we used to teach autos at either super low level, any air speed, or then at and above three hundred feet, any airspeed.
Then one day quite a few moons ago, a certain Departmental examiner says to me, “Vy is it zat, vu do not them from ze vun huntret feet?” Heil Hitler.
I thought, bugger me, I don’t know, and said so. He says, “Vell dis is vere you are in the mashine all day, vot?”
I thought, and here I am supposedly checking him out, an ex army, quasi German, then departmental answer to that nemesis of many of us Herr Trewenick.
I almost said Heil Hitler.
But that night Herr Holga, all six foot ten of him failed in a backward auto out of the back of the mini moke, just after he had stood, straight arm saluted and stated that, “I Vill review the troops.”
He survived, bless him. Surely he would have remembered our hospitality for some time.
However there was no cause found and it took a good while to fly it back out. Carby Ice? Probably.
Practice autos on take off? Very good idea! Another good idea is to check your Carby Air Temp just after you take off and are winding off power especially in a humid environment.
Initially we used to teach autos at either super low level, any air speed, or then at and above three hundred feet, any airspeed.
Then one day quite a few moons ago, a certain Departmental examiner says to me, “Vy is it zat, vu do not them from ze vun huntret feet?” Heil Hitler.
I thought, bugger me, I don’t know, and said so. He says, “Vell dis is vere you are in the mashine all day, vot?”
I thought, and here I am supposedly checking him out, an ex army, quasi German, then departmental answer to that nemesis of many of us Herr Trewenick.
I almost said Heil Hitler.
But that night Herr Holga, all six foot ten of him failed in a backward auto out of the back of the mini moke, just after he had stood, straight arm saluted and stated that, “I Vill review the troops.”
He survived, bless him. Surely he would have remembered our hospitality for some time.
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I don't want to offend anyone, but if you're a Robbie instructor, and you can't do a successful auto during takeoff, then maybe you shouldn't be a Robbie instructor. The chances of an engine failure during takeoff are probably higher than at any other time, and you have to be able to deal with it just as you have to be able to deal with it in cruise flight. Turning a student loose to solo, who has never been shown an engine failure during takeoff seems to me to show less than perfect judgment. I've never flown a Robinson, but I have flown TH55s and AS350s, and they lose rotor RPM in a heartbeat. You have to learn to deal with it, though.
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If you are ever at Bell, and your instructor softly says "FL" long on the radio, you are about to get one. While "FL" may mean Florida to some, it means forced landing in that part of Texas. Not being the sharpest knife in the drawer, it took me three or four of these before I figured it out. Of course, I didn't let on, so I am always listening for it, and especially prepared on a flat disk departure from spot 1 on lane four at the Bell practice area. The FL that did surprise me was off the elevated platform there, two years ago.
George
George
Regards from the "English Fella"
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A couple of years ago, one of our drivers had one just after take off, reaching for the coffee mug, fifty feet, thirty knots