IMC in an R22 - anyone done this?
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IMC in an R22 - anyone done this?
Has anyone here actually gone IMC in an R22 for any significant period of time? (ie more than a few seconds while flying through a small cloud)
I'd be interested in hearing the details. How hard was it? Etc.
I'd be interested in hearing the details. How hard was it? Etc.
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Oh dear 
Perhaps a trawl of the UK accident records for CFIT will yield you some answers
Half the reason for the Safety Evenings being held in the UK is to STOP unlicensed/untrained people from trying to do what you enquire.
Alternatively, perhaps the EXTREMELY lucky fool that was VMC on top by Aintree recently and asking ATC for help, might like to share
Perhaps a trawl of the UK accident records for CFIT will yield you some answers
Half the reason for the Safety Evenings being held in the UK is to STOP unlicensed/untrained people from trying to do what you enquire.
Alternatively, perhaps the EXTREMELY lucky fool that was VMC on top by Aintree recently and asking ATC for help, might like to share
That's Life!!
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IIRC the Bristow cadets did an IFR course at Redhill on the R22, albeit with an instructor always present and were 'examined' by the CAA before being released to main bases.
ergo it can be done under the proper circumstances.
unlicensed/untrained people
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back when I was a ppl which is a long time ago I was flying with another ppl in an r22 from shoreham to sandown IOW he was flying but we had the cyclic in on my side so I could help with the radio. About half way there we saw sea fog in front of us and decided to turn around but we where too late and it formed around us and we went imc.
my friend could not do the whole lot so i took over the cyclic he pulled full power and we climbed out the top headed back to shoreham by which time the airfield was in fog so we headed to blackbush.
I have never been imc in a 22 since and will never again I hope, it is not something to be done lightly and I think we had a lucky escape.Imc should only be done by those with currant IR's as look at what happens to some evan in suitable heli's.
my friend could not do the whole lot so i took over the cyclic he pulled full power and we climbed out the top headed back to shoreham by which time the airfield was in fog so we headed to blackbush.
I have never been imc in a 22 since and will never again I hope, it is not something to be done lightly and I think we had a lucky escape.Imc should only be done by those with currant IR's as look at what happens to some evan in suitable heli's.
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On completion of my instructor rating in the late 90's my FIC took me into cloud for at least 6-7 mins which seemed like 6 - 7 hours. I re call being able to hold it straight / level with some minor adjustments from my instructor. Its not that differcult knowing you have a once IMC examiner sat next to you ready to sort it out.
In reality without proper training its impossible and that's without that the blind panic thats sets in 5 seconds after it all goes white after a further 15 seconds you start to sweat and then its starts to snowball. The feeling in your stomach is yuk
Its a lot easier in a 44 and a Bell 47 you can eat your butties on the way.
IMC is for twin pilot in a proper machine.
So why are we training simulated imc. Its a complete nonsense
In reality without proper training its impossible and that's without that the blind panic thats sets in 5 seconds after it all goes white after a further 15 seconds you start to sweat and then its starts to snowball. The feeling in your stomach is yuk
Its a lot easier in a 44 and a Bell 47 you can eat your butties on the way.
IMC is for twin pilot in a proper machine.
So why are we training simulated imc. Its a complete nonsense
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ergo it can be done under the proper circumstances
The actual question asked was....................
Has anyone here actually gone IMC in an R22
Ergo, anybody flying IMC in an R22 regardless of being IFR trained or not is doing so illegally as the R22 is not approved for IMC flight in JAA land.
Nice to see the efforts of GS and MG will not be wasted with SO much misunderstanding amongst pilots
An article, from about two years ago, summed up IMC flight in an R22 very accurately - Do it, AND die
Last edited by Flingingwings; 10th Apr 2008 at 22:26.
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Cyclic,
I agree
But see Crazy's response above yours. I can appreciate why Sim IFR is within both the PPL and CPL syllabus. To help those unfortunate enough to get themselves into such a grave situation (no pun intended).
FWIW I think it would be time better spent improving the Airmanship skills of low hours pilots so that they make good/correct decisions much earlier - thereby reducing the numbers of those that push their luck to the extent that serious injury and or death is a real possibility.
Guess we're back to the Safety evenings initiated by GS and MG (not of course forgetting the assistance now provided by Paco)
IMC/IFR flight can be safely completed, but by qualified and current pilots in IFR certificated machines. The rules are quite clear and simple really
FW
I agree
But see Crazy's response above yours. I can appreciate why Sim IFR is within both the PPL and CPL syllabus. To help those unfortunate enough to get themselves into such a grave situation (no pun intended).
FWIW I think it would be time better spent improving the Airmanship skills of low hours pilots so that they make good/correct decisions much earlier - thereby reducing the numbers of those that push their luck to the extent that serious injury and or death is a real possibility.
Guess we're back to the Safety evenings initiated by GS and MG (not of course forgetting the assistance now provided by Paco)
IMC/IFR flight can be safely completed, but by qualified and current pilots in IFR certificated machines. The rules are quite clear and simple really
FW
You can do your FAA IFR/ATPL rating in an R22, but like those above said it needs to be done in VFR flight conditions because the R22 is not certificated for IFR. Many years ago I did my IFR check-ride in an R22 at night and we were in and out of cloud for much of the time. The examiner was a Robinson factory authorized test pilot and he obviously didn't have much of an issue flying the R22 under those conditions because that's what we did. So to answer the question, it can be done, but not legally.
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One of the requirements for an IFR approved helicopter is to have a cyclic centering capability in pitch and roll. A force trim system can provide that.
And there's a good reason for requiring the system - once you have trimmed up, it requires a force to displace the stick, thus providing the pilot with a cue in hand that the stick is being moved from trim.
Since even a small lateral displacement of the cyclic from the 'wings level' position produces a roll rate, which is probably slow enough to not be noticed until the bank angle is too steep to safely recover from by use of instruments alone, having a trim system is a good thing.
But we don't ever require it in all IFR training helicopters, like R-22/44, Schweizer 300, etc.
Pity.
And there's a good reason for requiring the system - once you have trimmed up, it requires a force to displace the stick, thus providing the pilot with a cue in hand that the stick is being moved from trim.
Since even a small lateral displacement of the cyclic from the 'wings level' position produces a roll rate, which is probably slow enough to not be noticed until the bank angle is too steep to safely recover from by use of instruments alone, having a trim system is a good thing.
But we don't ever require it in all IFR training helicopters, like R-22/44, Schweizer 300, etc.
Pity.
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IMC in an R22
Just ask the guy who was flying in company with another same-type a/c a few years back on their way back into Cairns in an R22. Trying to cross a mountain saddle with very low cloud, the lead aircraft entered cloud for just a moment when the pilot lost it and crashed into a rainforest! Luckily, both occupants walked away reasonably unscathed but the a/c was totalled!
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Shawn,
If not force trim, what is the system in a Schweizer 300 series called? I understand the Robinsons don't really have a trim system, but the hat trim button, motors, and springs in the 300 is better than none. I always liked being able to trim the 300 for a reasonably stable forward flight without the need to make the cyclic grip a [semi]permanent part of my hand.
I'm not saying it's a force trim - I'm just curious what it's called if not.
Bob
But we don't ever require it in all IFR training helicopters, like R-22/44, Schweizer 300, etc.
I'm not saying it's a force trim - I'm just curious what it's called if not.
Bob
There's no black magic about flying helicopters in cloud without stability systems or autopilots as long as you've got the requisite instruments. Even on limited panel (ie no attitude indicator), it's doable, but the key is training.
One prevailing view in Australia is that teaching helicopter pilots a little bit about flying on instruments encourages them to take risks that get them into trouble because they push weather limits. There's no requirement for instrument training in our CPL syllabus, whereas fixed wing have to do a few hours, which I think is a cop-out to cut down training hours and therefore cut down the considerable expense of getting a licence.
I don't agree with the "don't expose them to it" argument at all, and would suggest that a bit of instrument training combined with sensible advice about pushing personal limits would save lives in the long run.
One prevailing view in Australia is that teaching helicopter pilots a little bit about flying on instruments encourages them to take risks that get them into trouble because they push weather limits. There's no requirement for instrument training in our CPL syllabus, whereas fixed wing have to do a few hours, which I think is a cop-out to cut down training hours and therefore cut down the considerable expense of getting a licence.
I don't agree with the "don't expose them to it" argument at all, and would suggest that a bit of instrument training combined with sensible advice about pushing personal limits would save lives in the long run.
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CrazyBroadsword's story is a case in point for the necessity for teaching basic intrument flying. Surely no trained pilot can say that teaching how to deal with an IMC eventuality encourages accidents by ecouraging pilots to take risks? Training reduces the risks.... An extreme example of the no-imc-training ethic is.. teaching flying encourages accidents!
Knowledge is key... ignorant curiosity killed the cat...etc.. if you don't teach it some ppl will go and try it... teaching basic IMC for that inevitable day is essential training that really should no more be a question than any other essential safety/ emergency training...
As for the original question, R22 in IMC is technically no different to any other heli... keep your speed and trust the instruments.. But if it's curiosity you have... then far better try your hand in a sim (MS 2004). Instrument flying is the one thing you can get a taste of on the computer. Perhaps read some Vietnam heli books and get a flavour for IMC incidents and flying. In ChickenHawk they cope with no AH in IMC... The ASI is more responsive than VSI so you use that to stay level... etc etc Knowledge may save your bacon one day.... but this is one thing to 'Do try it at home'!. on the computer... not in the air...
Knowledge is key... ignorant curiosity killed the cat...etc.. if you don't teach it some ppl will go and try it... teaching basic IMC for that inevitable day is essential training that really should no more be a question than any other essential safety/ emergency training...
As for the original question, R22 in IMC is technically no different to any other heli... keep your speed and trust the instruments.. But if it's curiosity you have... then far better try your hand in a sim (MS 2004). Instrument flying is the one thing you can get a taste of on the computer. Perhaps read some Vietnam heli books and get a flavour for IMC incidents and flying. In ChickenHawk they cope with no AH in IMC... The ASI is more responsive than VSI so you use that to stay level... etc etc Knowledge may save your bacon one day.... but this is one thing to 'Do try it at home'!. on the computer... not in the air...
Last edited by K48; 11th Apr 2008 at 08:46.
Avoid imitations
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I think the important thing is for a pilot to know his own personal limits and those of the aircraft and also the legal requirements and to stick by them.
Any pilot can get caught out by a bit of cloud; suitable training can teach how to safely deal with it. I'm a believer that exposure to the situation in a controlled environment i.e. with an instructor, within the law, is the best way to keep a pilot safe for the future.
Unfortunately, common sense cannot be taught. For example, not so long ago I had a close encounter with a single engined helicopter (R-44), whilst we were flying IMC at 2400ft under a RIS. The R-44 was presumably being flown illegally because he was at an estimated 2300ft in solid IMC, not squawking and not talking, crossing a commonly used route in and out of the Heathrow zone. We were advised by Heathrow Radar of his presence but wrongly assumed, because of the weather and other circumstances, that he would be below the 1500 foot overcast. I don't think he saw us, but we saw him. I am fairly certain which aircraft it was. I hope the pilot isn't doing this on a regular basis or we might be having another "statistic" in the not-too distant future and if I see it again I will definitely be reporting it.
Any pilot can get caught out by a bit of cloud; suitable training can teach how to safely deal with it. I'm a believer that exposure to the situation in a controlled environment i.e. with an instructor, within the law, is the best way to keep a pilot safe for the future.
Unfortunately, common sense cannot be taught. For example, not so long ago I had a close encounter with a single engined helicopter (R-44), whilst we were flying IMC at 2400ft under a RIS. The R-44 was presumably being flown illegally because he was at an estimated 2300ft in solid IMC, not squawking and not talking, crossing a commonly used route in and out of the Heathrow zone. We were advised by Heathrow Radar of his presence but wrongly assumed, because of the weather and other circumstances, that he would be below the 1500 foot overcast. I don't think he saw us, but we saw him. I am fairly certain which aircraft it was. I hope the pilot isn't doing this on a regular basis or we might be having another "statistic" in the not-too distant future and if I see it again I will definitely be reporting it.
Nothing wrong with IMC in an unstabilised single IF the pilot is properly trained AND maintains currency at the skill (done routinely by the military) BUT BUT BUT - it's illegal in a civvy registered heli in the UK. The danger with showing a R22 pilot how to fly on instruments will always be that he/she may be tempted to push the weather limits a little further that is safe (although I do understand the good intentions of exposing a pilot to IF to give him a fighting chance if he should go inadvertent entry into cloud). By all means practice the skill with an instructor, but when the weather turns marginal, always chicken out early AND remember 'Don't Press On - land On'.
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I too have been there in an R22 under training (with a suitably qualified instructor in the left seat) and I agree with all of Cyclic-Flare's comments regarding time passing and sweating. It scared the sh*t out of me 
and I have heeded his advice ever since to treat clouds as being made of concrete .
My advice is simply DON'T DO IT! The AAIB are busy enough without you.
Ian.
and I have heeded his advice ever since to treat clouds as being made of concrete .My advice is simply DON'T DO IT! The AAIB are busy enough without you.
Ian.
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IMC Training and Risk
Surely no trained pilot can say that teaching how to deal with an IMC eventuality encourages accidents by ecouraging pilots to take risks?
Is it not the case that, following inclusion of IMC simulation in the PPL(H) syllabus, the accident rate arising from inadvertent IMC in PPL Helicopters has risen markedly? Of course, the existence of two facts in not sufficient to imply causality but it does beg the question.
Is it not the case that, following inclusion of IMC simulation in the PPL(H) syllabus, the accident rate arising from inadvertent IMC in PPL Helicopters has risen markedly? Of course, the existence of two facts in not sufficient to imply causality but it does beg the question.
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I am aware we are creeping off the thread a bit here.
I believe the inclusion of IMC has been discussed at length before.
However as a 22 and 44 PPL and having completed my time behind the foggles during training i know now IMC is not the place i want to be.
And for this reason i pay even more attention to my weather planning.
If the weather is marginal i am staying on the ground.
I believe the inclusion of IMC has been discussed at length before.
However as a 22 and 44 PPL and having completed my time behind the foggles during training i know now IMC is not the place i want to be.
And for this reason i pay even more attention to my weather planning.
If the weather is marginal i am staying on the ground.