One For The Self Employed Onshore Pilots
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 77
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
One For The Self Employed Onshore Pilots
Most of us know that most PPL (h) instructors R22/R44/S300 earn between 35 - 40 quid an hour, and that has been pretty consistent for probably a good 10 years.
For pilot services would most of you agree that schools are charging out around 65 an hour to supply a pilot?
Scenario.. I took my wifes car to Citroen for it's 40,000 mile routine service two days ago, and nearly fell flat on my back with a 450 quid bill. I asked why the hell it was so steep, and got told that the charge per hour for a mechanic is 85 of my english pounds!!
Before I wrote this, I did a bit of digging and found that most dealers are charging 80 - 100 an hour for mechanics. My old man is a mechanic so I'm not knocking anyone here, but do any of you think that it's about time as an industry the rates went up a bit for pilot services, and for wages as a whole?
your comments please...
take it easy
For pilot services would most of you agree that schools are charging out around 65 an hour to supply a pilot?
Scenario.. I took my wifes car to Citroen for it's 40,000 mile routine service two days ago, and nearly fell flat on my back with a 450 quid bill. I asked why the hell it was so steep, and got told that the charge per hour for a mechanic is 85 of my english pounds!!
Before I wrote this, I did a bit of digging and found that most dealers are charging 80 - 100 an hour for mechanics. My old man is a mechanic so I'm not knocking anyone here, but do any of you think that it's about time as an industry the rates went up a bit for pilot services, and for wages as a whole?
your comments please...
take it easy
Change garages. My BMW gets worked on by an independant, BMW-trained mechanic at £20/hour. Any warranty work he does is approved by the local main dealer, who puts a good deal of work his way.
Guest
Posts: n/a
For PPL instruction, my school charges me out at £75. I get £44 per flight hour. No retainer. No benefits. Doesn't matter if you have 300 hours or 3,000 hours, you still get the same. The school also makes a profit on the aircraft presumably.
Yes, it's time for a change. But there will always be some 300 hour newbie who will work for less. Just like there will always be 1,000 hour piston instructors who will work for practically nothing to get turbine/twin time.
Don't get me started. The whole situation is depressing!
Yes, it's time for a change. But there will always be some 300 hour newbie who will work for less. Just like there will always be 1,000 hour piston instructors who will work for practically nothing to get turbine/twin time.
Don't get me started. The whole situation is depressing!
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 18 Degrees North
Posts: 699
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Don't get me started. The whole situation is depressing!
I dont believe it is fixable in the short/medium term.
get an IR and get out is your best option I think
regards
CF
My advice, all instructors stand together and state they want £50/hr. No haggling. If enough instructors do this at once then something might happen. It needs to be higher as the cost of getting the licence gets higher and higher each year.
My instructor back in 1994 was getting paid £45/hr!!!!!
Saying that, any good school, who cares about it's instructors, will pay them £50/hr. No reason not to. If they don't then maybe look for someone who does pay well. You want to work for less than what you think you're worth, then go ahead but moaning about low rates won't get you anywhere i'm afraid. Take action!!!
My instructor back in 1994 was getting paid £45/hr!!!!!
Saying that, any good school, who cares about it's instructors, will pay them £50/hr. No reason not to. If they don't then maybe look for someone who does pay well. You want to work for less than what you think you're worth, then go ahead but moaning about low rates won't get you anywhere i'm afraid. Take action!!!
Guest
Posts: n/a
Mmm.. easy to say, less easy to do. If the school you work for refuses to pay more, and your nearest other school is 70 miles away, are you going to move house and start all over again at another school? Then have a nightmare commute with the associated petrol costs? I doubt it.
"any good school, who cares about it's instructors" - Mmmm.. schools know that instructors are always around and, on the whole, people only do it to build hours before moving on, so why pay us more? If they paid us all £70, then would have to put their prices up, and hence the customers wouldn't come.
It's all down to economics. Fuel, regulation/admin, airfield etc costs have all risen over the last few years, and schools are forced to pay those costs, but they can get away with not paying instructors more because they know there will always be people looking for instructor jobs.
Maybe in ten years schools will be forced to pay us more, but by that time, we might not have a PPL flight training industry in the UK.
I'm all for solidarity and getting a decent wage, but as I said, it's depressing.
"any good school, who cares about it's instructors" - Mmmm.. schools know that instructors are always around and, on the whole, people only do it to build hours before moving on, so why pay us more? If they paid us all £70, then would have to put their prices up, and hence the customers wouldn't come.
It's all down to economics. Fuel, regulation/admin, airfield etc costs have all risen over the last few years, and schools are forced to pay those costs, but they can get away with not paying instructors more because they know there will always be people looking for instructor jobs.
Maybe in ten years schools will be forced to pay us more, but by that time, we might not have a PPL flight training industry in the UK.
I'm all for solidarity and getting a decent wage, but as I said, it's depressing.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: London
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yeah. I took my Jag XKR in for 10k dealerhip serice and cost me £550, what did they do? you tell me. They always insist on including 'sundries' including screen wash even though you're topped up. They kindly gave mu a bottle of 1l oil (like i'd have to use it at that mileage) at the cost off £20. Switched the XK to a x-type 2.0 still cost me nearly as much. Answer? Pedal cycle. Unfortunately, the Jag service reception girls are so pretty, all you can do is hand over your card and smile!!
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Here.
Posts: 684
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Chaps,
Do instructors belong to a Union like us TV technicians?
Surely the Union can stipulate the rate or a rate rise?
I was shocked to find out that my instructor would only be on £40 per hour, you can't get a plumber for that around here!
As a trainee it wouldn't stop me going ahead with my PPL(H) if the instructor rate was higher, as a job I think it should command a higher rate.
Maybe the rate should go on the number of flying hours held by an instructor........I personally would pay more knowing my instructor had more experience!
Just my thoughts,
K77.
Do instructors belong to a Union like us TV technicians?
Surely the Union can stipulate the rate or a rate rise?
I was shocked to find out that my instructor would only be on £40 per hour, you can't get a plumber for that around here!
As a trainee it wouldn't stop me going ahead with my PPL(H) if the instructor rate was higher, as a job I think it should command a higher rate.
Maybe the rate should go on the number of flying hours held by an instructor........I personally would pay more knowing my instructor had more experience!
Just my thoughts,
K77.
Hovering AND talking
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Propping up bars in the Lands of D H Lawrence and Bishop Bonner
Age: 59
Posts: 5,705
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well you could join BALPA if you wanted but I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for them to fight your corner!
Just as a self-employed instructor feels constrained in working for a particular school due to location so also do many students. They similarly would look at the hourly rate of a local school compared with that of one 70 miels away and also factor in the petrol costs!
Cheers
Whirls
Just as a self-employed instructor feels constrained in working for a particular school due to location so also do many students. They similarly would look at the hourly rate of a local school compared with that of one 70 miels away and also factor in the petrol costs!
Cheers
Whirls
Ok, how about an honest operator breaking down the cost of one hours R22 instruction in the UK? (£250/hr these days)???
ie A/C cost, Maintenance, Insurance, Hangarage, Fuel, Instructor pay.
Interested to see the bottom line. Small profit margins I would bet.??
ie A/C cost, Maintenance, Insurance, Hangarage, Fuel, Instructor pay.
Interested to see the bottom line. Small profit margins I would bet.??
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi all
As an instructor myself I wonder if like me others would prefere a salary as opposed to being paid by the hour. Seems like a better way to be paid. I guess most employers think being paid by the hour encourages us to get the work and make us more pro-active. To be honest the fact that as it stands this could never be a serious career is the motivation to get the hours and move on!
Thoughts comments?
As an instructor myself I wonder if like me others would prefere a salary as opposed to being paid by the hour. Seems like a better way to be paid. I guess most employers think being paid by the hour encourages us to get the work and make us more pro-active. To be honest the fact that as it stands this could never be a serious career is the motivation to get the hours and move on!
Thoughts comments?
Guest
Posts: n/a
More like £280 for an R22 these days. Once you factor in fuel surchages/landing fees/circiut fees etc.
Salaries are very rare for FI jobs.
Some companies even want you there 9-5 washing the hangar floor, cleaning helis, etc. - while only paying you when you fly! (you know who you are).
"As an instructor myself I wonder if like me others would prefere a salary as opposed to being paid by the hour Seems like a better way to be paid" - not for the school, no. Because when the weather is crap/heli is broken/student doesnt tun up etc, you are not costing the school money.
Salaries are very rare for FI jobs.
Some companies even want you there 9-5 washing the hangar floor, cleaning helis, etc. - while only paying you when you fly! (you know who you are).
"As an instructor myself I wonder if like me others would prefere a salary as opposed to being paid by the hour Seems like a better way to be paid" - not for the school, no. Because when the weather is crap/heli is broken/student doesnt tun up etc, you are not costing the school money.
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 18 Degrees North
Posts: 699
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
dont waste your money joining BALPA.
Forget about salaries it wont happen unless you make yourself essential to the school.
forget about banding together FI's are thinly spread working for different employers.
Many of this type of company demand excessive loyalty from you but will give non back, the only thing they understand is you voting with your feet.
the fact of the matter it is that being a FI is not a career, nor in my opinion is VFR charter on singles, they are jobs
you need to get into twins i.e 1) offshore 2)corporate 3)police 4)air ambulance 5)private owner
you can either live with the £45 flight pay or you cant, no point wasting your time worrying about it.
I couldnt, had mortgage/wife/kids/car payments etc so had to get into something else, depressing but true
regards
CF
Forget about salaries it wont happen unless you make yourself essential to the school.
forget about banding together FI's are thinly spread working for different employers.
Many of this type of company demand excessive loyalty from you but will give non back, the only thing they understand is you voting with your feet.
the fact of the matter it is that being a FI is not a career, nor in my opinion is VFR charter on singles, they are jobs
you need to get into twins i.e 1) offshore 2)corporate 3)police 4)air ambulance 5)private owner
you can either live with the £45 flight pay or you cant, no point wasting your time worrying about it.
I couldnt, had mortgage/wife/kids/car payments etc so had to get into something else, depressing but true
regards
CF
Have to agree CF. It's a shame, as I enjoyed instructing but could never have made it a career, especially after the way some of the schools treated their instructors.
So can we break down the £280/hr somehow? I don't now what avgas costs these days (or Jet A1 for that matter!!
) But as a guess it must be about £1.25+ litre?
Surely, if the costs to the customer can be increased in line with fuel/ins/landing fees etc then surely an extra £10/hr could be factored in. Problem is, this year I think it'll be hard to run a school as the money/credit issues bite further.
The people who can afford to fly will always be able to pay whatever it costs I think.
My advice is for any instructor to approach their employer and ask for a better deal. Maybe a low basic salary with a reduced 'per hour' flying pay.
I don't think £50 is bad for an R22 instructor. I know a few people getting that now so no reason why everyone isn't getting the same or similar.
So can we break down the £280/hr somehow? I don't now what avgas costs these days (or Jet A1 for that matter!!
) But as a guess it must be about £1.25+ litre?Surely, if the costs to the customer can be increased in line with fuel/ins/landing fees etc then surely an extra £10/hr could be factored in. Problem is, this year I think it'll be hard to run a school as the money/credit issues bite further.
The people who can afford to fly will always be able to pay whatever it costs I think.
My advice is for any instructor to approach their employer and ask for a better deal. Maybe a low basic salary with a reduced 'per hour' flying pay.
I don't think £50 is bad for an R22 instructor. I know a few people getting that now so no reason why everyone isn't getting the same or similar.
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Murica.
Age: 45
Posts: 230
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Quite a difference
I worked as an instructor in the US some years ago, instructing people from PPL up to ATLP. My starting salary was 16USD per hour. When I left it was up to 19 an hour. Whats that....around 8-10£?
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Murica.
Age: 45
Posts: 230
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thats true, but there were still months where I could hardly afford to eat....ahh...the memories.
And not being a US citizen, it took a while to get a turbine job after having to leave the country.
I just thought the difference was steep. All respect to instructors anywhere working for peanuts to get where they want to be.
And not being a US citizen, it took a while to get a turbine job after having to leave the country.
I just thought the difference was steep. All respect to instructors anywhere working for peanuts to get where they want to be.
Join Date: May 2005
Location: WA
Posts: 27
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You could perhaps compare the pay rate with the driver of the car, not the dedicated professional mechanic that sweats to maintain it at a time and place of your choosing.
You are all the same.
Gymble.
You are all the same.
Gymble.