One For The Self Employed Onshore Pilots
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
From: UK
I don't think the industry will change, it can't. Mainly because instructing is the entry level for most people so money and conditions will be crap! I know of at least more than one FI who didn't progress further and gave up after 18 months of instructing. So it seems FI's get fed up dispondant or just cant survive on guarenteed bugger all and leave, only to be replaced by a newly qualified FI who just can't belive he's getting paid to fly! And so it goes on. Even with some charter mixed in your still paid by the hour and quite often worse off for the effort. The trick is to go for the CFI positions I would guess!
I love the job just don't know how long I can stick it.
I love the job just don't know how long I can stick it.
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 123
Likes: 0
From: clinging to the wreckage
I agree exactly with what Lplates said. I absolutely love the job, money is ok in the summer but this time of year ..AAAHHHHH
But its been a long time and a lot of effort to get this far, You gotta stick with it??
Its got to be better than going back to the day job.. surely..
But its been a long time and a lot of effort to get this far, You gotta stick with it??
Its got to be better than going back to the day job.. surely..
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 699
Likes: 0
From: 18 Degrees North
IMO instructing is not something you can keep doing in the long term very easily.
you give a lot of yourself instructing, always giving information and getting very little back, the students slowly suck the life out of you and after 1000 hours or so instructing it is very hard to be patient with them like you were at the start, as you see the same mistakes over and over and over.
as a part time thing with other flying on the go it is sustainable, but i think you do need to move on to other things.
regards
CF
you give a lot of yourself instructing, always giving information and getting very little back, the students slowly suck the life out of you and after 1000 hours or so instructing it is very hard to be patient with them like you were at the start, as you see the same mistakes over and over and over.
as a part time thing with other flying on the go it is sustainable, but i think you do need to move on to other things.
regards
CF
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 108
Likes: 0
From: the world
ha
Operaters will always take advantage of the fact that if you are not happy with getting paid peanuts for your flying there will always be some other guy who will. And they will most probaly remind you of this fact more times than you can shake a stick at, lol. ( and you are supposed to feel priviledged for that ???)
you should see the amount of C.V's the company I work for get every week ???
The less they pay the more they make.
To be fair though if it was my company I would most probally take advantage of this fact to , lol
Dosent make it right but what can you do ????????
G.B
you should see the amount of C.V's the company I work for get every week ???
The less they pay the more they make.
To be fair though if it was my company I would most probally take advantage of this fact to , lol
Dosent make it right but what can you do ????????
G.B
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 186
Likes: 0
From: South Wales
With a name like TIMTS and that sort of hourly rate, then you must have been at the 'big un' in KTIX. I also instructed there and started on that sort of hourly rate. As time goes on and you get more hours, the money rises quickly. When I left I was earning $22 / hour. That was for flight AND ground school. I used to work an average of 100 hours flight and 50 hours of ground per month. $3300 / month (minus taxes) was more than enough to live on. It was hard work and very tiring (working 6 days a week) but as you said, your only there for a short time so most people work their a$$ off to get their hours up.
When I returned to the UK, I worked as an FI for a couple of months before doing my IR conversion. By the time I paid for a type rating, renewed my medical, cost of travelling (including travel to work only to find there's no flying for what ever reason) minus taxes....I barely broke even.
Luckly it was only a very part time gig for me, but for some people, who work as FI's full time, depending on their income to pay bills etc, it must be a nightmare.
When I returned to the UK, I worked as an FI for a couple of months before doing my IR conversion. By the time I paid for a type rating, renewed my medical, cost of travelling (including travel to work only to find there's no flying for what ever reason) minus taxes....I barely broke even.
Luckly it was only a very part time gig for me, but for some people, who work as FI's full time, depending on their income to pay bills etc, it must be a nightmare.
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 199
Likes: 0
From: england
instructor rates
There's nothing wrong with the 50 quid an hour rate, it's the lack of hours flown that is the issue.
A realistic full day's work would be 4 hours flown a day, the rest of the time being spent on "unpaid" ground school.
That's 200 quid a day, £1000 a week, 40k a year (allowing for hols and weather).
Being paid a grand a week to do a job you love flying someone else's kit at no financial risk isn't such a bad way to earn a living, is it?
So what the instructors should do is work at places that can provide 20 hours instructional flying a week.
There aren't many of these schools, so one thing you can do is sit around and moan about the lack of work and money. An alternative approach is to get up off your behind and bring some more students to the school at which you work.
Spend all that "spare" time selling your services - make friends with your students, get them to bring their mates along for a trial lesson or intro day.
Build your reputation up, and you'll see the money roll in.
Big Ls
A realistic full day's work would be 4 hours flown a day, the rest of the time being spent on "unpaid" ground school.
That's 200 quid a day, £1000 a week, 40k a year (allowing for hols and weather).
Being paid a grand a week to do a job you love flying someone else's kit at no financial risk isn't such a bad way to earn a living, is it?
So what the instructors should do is work at places that can provide 20 hours instructional flying a week.
There aren't many of these schools, so one thing you can do is sit around and moan about the lack of work and money. An alternative approach is to get up off your behind and bring some more students to the school at which you work.
Spend all that "spare" time selling your services - make friends with your students, get them to bring their mates along for a trial lesson or intro day.
Build your reputation up, and you'll see the money roll in.
Big Ls
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
From: Yorkshire
Guess My Salary
FP
With those ratings, and working in the more lucrative South, if you are earning less than 50K a year I would seriously question where you are going in the future.
In my opinion corporate work is FAR FAR better than all this "Rig Sh**" which seems to be everyones idea of "earning the big bucks".......
Eventually a Captain on £75K+, wow....... big deal. Knock off Gordons Slice and your left with about 4 grand a month. And for all that training, skill and determination....... IT'S PATHETIC.
What is it all about. It's OK to say you are doing a job you love, but, the love wears thin if the earnings are strained for the commitment required.
The salaries for instructing are crap because it's so difficult for operators to make money in the CAA over legislated and beaurocratic helicopter world, especially in training.
Whats embarrasing is that instructing seems to be a "stop gap" to better things....... This is also pathetic, because, Instructors should be at the top of the salary scale not the bottom, hence alot of crap instructors out their just "bideing time". TEACHING NOVICE, NERVOUS AND VIRGIN WANABEE PILOTS needs a hell of alot of skill. This skill should be remmunerated.
I cannot see the salaries increasing much in the forseeable future, so if flying is a true passion, and you stick it out, theres always the local pub to get a part time job in to make ends meets!!!!!
With those ratings, and working in the more lucrative South, if you are earning less than 50K a year I would seriously question where you are going in the future.
In my opinion corporate work is FAR FAR better than all this "Rig Sh**" which seems to be everyones idea of "earning the big bucks".......
Eventually a Captain on £75K+, wow....... big deal. Knock off Gordons Slice and your left with about 4 grand a month. And for all that training, skill and determination....... IT'S PATHETIC.
What is it all about. It's OK to say you are doing a job you love, but, the love wears thin if the earnings are strained for the commitment required.
The salaries for instructing are crap because it's so difficult for operators to make money in the CAA over legislated and beaurocratic helicopter world, especially in training.
Whats embarrasing is that instructing seems to be a "stop gap" to better things....... This is also pathetic, because, Instructors should be at the top of the salary scale not the bottom, hence alot of crap instructors out their just "bideing time". TEACHING NOVICE, NERVOUS AND VIRGIN WANABEE PILOTS needs a hell of alot of skill. This skill should be remmunerated.
I cannot see the salaries increasing much in the forseeable future, so if flying is a true passion, and you stick it out, theres always the local pub to get a part time job in to make ends meets!!!!!
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 321
Likes: 1
From: Earth
Flying pencil, You are rated on 7 types but are you flying them?
If you're flying the 109 you should be getting more cash. Which machine are you flying mostly?
This is just an Australian point of view, I know things are different over there
If you're flying the 109 you should be getting more cash. Which machine are you flying mostly?
This is just an Australian point of view, I know things are different over there
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,669
Likes: 5
From: uk
Copter, you say corporate is better than north sea? You talking money or b*llox?
I work offshore as a co-pilot, not really a secret who I am anymore and my salary isn't that great but i'm at the bottom of the ladder.
£75k? Yes, prob about right for a first year Captain.
I'm home in my own bed every night. Nice mixture of early shifts and late shifts, overtime available sometimes if I want it but not too bothered, and working about 18-20 days a month, give or take.
Ok, it's all multi crew and not for everyone, but it beats driving 300miles a day to instruct for £150 (if the wx doesn't go pants/student doesnt turn up/aircraft goes tech/delete as appropriate)
I can be finished by 1pm and have the day free when on earlies. Can't complain really.
As for Flying Pencil, I believe he can only be on two a/c for the AOC (forgive me if i'm wrong), but I bet he's expected to be at work all week, rain or shine, unpaid if not flying, taxed at source, not paid a retainer (well maybe a small one) and on a crap hourly flying rate and exected to sweep the hangar and do office type !!!!!. If he makes £30k a year i'd be very surprised.
Now it's also possible his company really knows how to look after it's staff! NOT!! They probably pay him 0.1hrs less than the datcon time too.
He won't have an IR or else he'd be sitting pretty well in a nice corporate role and certainly wouldn't be where he is right now.
It's all horses for courses and what someone refuses to do, will be done by someone who thinks they are on to a winner. Sad but true. This industry won't change.
I work offshore as a co-pilot, not really a secret who I am anymore and my salary isn't that great but i'm at the bottom of the ladder.
£75k? Yes, prob about right for a first year Captain.
I'm home in my own bed every night. Nice mixture of early shifts and late shifts, overtime available sometimes if I want it but not too bothered, and working about 18-20 days a month, give or take.
Ok, it's all multi crew and not for everyone, but it beats driving 300miles a day to instruct for £150 (if the wx doesn't go pants/student doesnt turn up/aircraft goes tech/delete as appropriate)
I can be finished by 1pm and have the day free when on earlies. Can't complain really.
As for Flying Pencil, I believe he can only be on two a/c for the AOC (forgive me if i'm wrong), but I bet he's expected to be at work all week, rain or shine, unpaid if not flying, taxed at source, not paid a retainer (well maybe a small one) and on a crap hourly flying rate and exected to sweep the hangar and do office type !!!!!. If he makes £30k a year i'd be very surprised.
Now it's also possible his company really knows how to look after it's staff! NOT!! They probably pay him 0.1hrs less than the datcon time too.
He won't have an IR or else he'd be sitting pretty well in a nice corporate role and certainly wouldn't be where he is right now.
It's all horses for courses and what someone refuses to do, will be done by someone who thinks they are on to a winner. Sad but true. This industry won't change.
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 53
Likes: 0
From: uk
Tried asking before. Boss had me on every angle sadly.
Why not pay instructors a salary? A: because they'll find any excuse not to fly and every excuse to still get paid.
And the self employed free lance instructors? A: because thay are self employed contractors, they get paid for what services they perform not for the pleasure of their company. Which is better? Get £45/hour for 50-70 hours a month or £100/hour and get no flying?
Made sense and is basic economics. Students dont want to pay much when learning but want saleries to go through roof once they go on line as instructors themselves. How much would you FI rating cost if you had to pay an extra £40/50 hour along they way?
Flight schools dont seem to have the same financial clout behind them as Charter companies. And the best explaination was that Instruction is regarded as a vocation (which means you'd better not be motivated by money when choosing as a career or career starting point)
Helped me appreciate that I was only there for a short time to get my experience up and by being cheap, hopefully I could get more quicker and therefore move on faster. It seems to have worked in the past and most people who complain as a young instructor are normally 1st ones gone at prospect of better job. High time instructors are rare at the best of times and I dont think they do it solely for the money
Just my humble 2c. I apologise if it rubs up anyone the wrong way. NB
Why not pay instructors a salary? A: because they'll find any excuse not to fly and every excuse to still get paid.
And the self employed free lance instructors? A: because thay are self employed contractors, they get paid for what services they perform not for the pleasure of their company. Which is better? Get £45/hour for 50-70 hours a month or £100/hour and get no flying?
Made sense and is basic economics. Students dont want to pay much when learning but want saleries to go through roof once they go on line as instructors themselves. How much would you FI rating cost if you had to pay an extra £40/50 hour along they way?
Flight schools dont seem to have the same financial clout behind them as Charter companies. And the best explaination was that Instruction is regarded as a vocation (which means you'd better not be motivated by money when choosing as a career or career starting point)
Helped me appreciate that I was only there for a short time to get my experience up and by being cheap, hopefully I could get more quicker and therefore move on faster. It seems to have worked in the past and most people who complain as a young instructor are normally 1st ones gone at prospect of better job. High time instructors are rare at the best of times and I dont think they do it solely for the money
Just my humble 2c. I apologise if it rubs up anyone the wrong way. NB
Joined: Jul 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL(H)
Posts: 3,054
Likes: 57
From: UK
Such as??? 
Any job that requires 'turbine/twin/IR time' is going to require an element of previous experience. If you're smart/lucky though, you'll find a flying school to work at which is also an AOC operator with singles and twins. There are plenty around.
However, I wouldn't expect everything for free. You might still have to pay for your additional ratings although certain companies might be willing to do you a deal.
However, I wouldn't expect everything for free. You might still have to pay for your additional ratings although certain companies might be willing to do you a deal.