Informal heli nights UK (including arrangements)
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Hi Mike,
Is there anything else planned for 'up north' because as you will remember due to the massive turn out in Newcastle we only got through half of your and Gary's prepared safety brief?
Julian.
Is there anything else planned for 'up north' because as you will remember due to the massive turn out in Newcastle we only got through half of your and Gary's prepared safety brief?
Julian.
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Just wanted to say thanks to Gary and all the others involved for the huge amount of effort that must've gone into tonight... also especially to the poor CAA guy (I'm sorry I can't remember your name too!) for bravely facing up to us all 
Very interesting and useful evening, I'm sure others feel the same. For anyone who's not been to one before and is thinking about it, definitely get to one. I don't know how many thousands of hours worth of experience were in that room but it was well up there!
Cheers Gary!
Very interesting and useful evening, I'm sure others feel the same. For anyone who's not been to one before and is thinking about it, definitely get to one. I don't know how many thousands of hours worth of experience were in that room but it was well up there!
Cheers Gary!
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...and I'll "3rd" it!
Huge thanks to Gary, Dennis, Phil and Dave (CAA) for your input, advice and opinions, but most especially to Gary who has obviously put hours and hours of work into preparing the presentation.
Ioan is right - if you haven't so far then get yourselves along to one of these evenings. A few of us were talking and agreed that is was like a condensed "safety course", of huge benefit, and we look forward to more ideas still to come.
It was also nice to put a few faces to PPRuNe names.
Thanks again guys,
DBChopper
Ioan is right - if you haven't so far then get yourselves along to one of these evenings. A few of us were talking and agreed that is was like a condensed "safety course", of huge benefit, and we look forward to more ideas still to come.
It was also nice to put a few faces to PPRuNe names.
Thanks again guys,
DBChopper
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Our Redhill gathering
Yes Gary ... a very worthwhile evening and thanks from all of us for the many hours of work it required.
Sorry I couldn't get to chat individually with more guys/gals. Future evenings will resolve that. Put me down for Exeter please Gary.
Some open questions for last night's pilots.
Was the format suitable? ie would you like to see more or less formal. How about sitting in the round, conference like ... where numbers allow. For Gary's next meeting, would you like a specific agenda where attendees nominate the subjects, and/or possibly a panel of two/three of the experienced guys for a 'Question Time' session?
I'm not sure how the bulk of pilots felt last night, but from my viewpoint I just want to impart anything I have learned over my fifty years flying, that can be helpful to our up and coming pilots. Just any format/discussion/even chit-chat that will help bring down the incident/accident rate.
I think the question session would prove a good platform for that. I'd like to see even more input from the newly qualified and training PPLs. I find it all too easy to sit in my box of isolation and the occasion such as last night's Redhill pilot gathering changes that.
Views please lads/ladesses. I'm always in touch with Gary Spender and Phil.
PS. Next time ... no pot shots at the CAA. There are better platforms for that. We are all about safe flying and safety awareness.
A great evening all, and thanks for the first beer at the 'Station' pub. Be with you on our next southern safety evening.
Safe flying all out there,
Dennis Kenyon.
Sorry I couldn't get to chat individually with more guys/gals. Future evenings will resolve that. Put me down for Exeter please Gary.
Some open questions for last night's pilots.
Was the format suitable? ie would you like to see more or less formal. How about sitting in the round, conference like ... where numbers allow. For Gary's next meeting, would you like a specific agenda where attendees nominate the subjects, and/or possibly a panel of two/three of the experienced guys for a 'Question Time' session?
I'm not sure how the bulk of pilots felt last night, but from my viewpoint I just want to impart anything I have learned over my fifty years flying, that can be helpful to our up and coming pilots. Just any format/discussion/even chit-chat that will help bring down the incident/accident rate.
I think the question session would prove a good platform for that. I'd like to see even more input from the newly qualified and training PPLs. I find it all too easy to sit in my box of isolation and the occasion such as last night's Redhill pilot gathering changes that.
Views please lads/ladesses. I'm always in touch with Gary Spender and Phil.
PS. Next time ... no pot shots at the CAA. There are better platforms for that. We are all about safe flying and safety awareness.
A great evening all, and thanks for the first beer at the 'Station' pub. Be with you on our next southern safety evening.
Safe flying all out there,
Dennis Kenyon.
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Cheers Gary (et al),
An enjoyable evening - the FREE beer and sarnies being a nice touch
Good to finally put a face to Dbchopper
Will try and attend more of them, albeit I got it in the neck for talking with you outside the pub for so long
Christ that was chilly.
For next time if you (Gary) could resist the urge to pollute the atmosphere
Good luck today at the Ivory Towers
FW
An enjoyable evening - the FREE beer and sarnies being a nice touch
Good to finally put a face to Dbchopper
Will try and attend more of them, albeit I got it in the neck for talking with you outside the pub for so long
Christ that was chilly. For next time if you (Gary) could resist the urge to pollute the atmosphere
Good luck today at the Ivory Towers
FW
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Likewise FW, and I'm not envious of your job at all.... 
Dennis, in answer to the points you raised, yes I do think the format is appropriate for the inaugural round of these evenings. The meeting-round-a-table format is a nice idea but I think the sheer numbers and limitation of venues might make that problematic. I liked the fact that the "agenda" (for want of a better word) was a general overview of light helicopter safety and accidents and I suspect in the future it may be narrowed down to more specific subjects per evening. For now, it works and the fact that it overran just points to the enthusiasm and interest in the room.
A Question Time format for the future sounds like a great idea. PPRuNe might be the ideal forum for interested parties to post an idea of their questions to give those of you in the hot seat time to prepare (yeah, like you need it
).
As for pot-shots at the CAA, well I guess that was always going to happen and could be considered something of an occupational hazard by Dave and his colleagues (for some reason people always moan to me about GATSO cameras...
) I don't think it got too out of hand and, as we were reminded, he is on our side as his job is specifically safety.
DBChopper
Dennis, in answer to the points you raised, yes I do think the format is appropriate for the inaugural round of these evenings. The meeting-round-a-table format is a nice idea but I think the sheer numbers and limitation of venues might make that problematic. I liked the fact that the "agenda" (for want of a better word) was a general overview of light helicopter safety and accidents and I suspect in the future it may be narrowed down to more specific subjects per evening. For now, it works and the fact that it overran just points to the enthusiasm and interest in the room.
A Question Time format for the future sounds like a great idea. PPRuNe might be the ideal forum for interested parties to post an idea of their questions to give those of you in the hot seat time to prepare (yeah, like you need it
).As for pot-shots at the CAA, well I guess that was always going to happen and could be considered something of an occupational hazard by Dave and his colleagues (for some reason people always moan to me about GATSO cameras...
) I don't think it got too out of hand and, as we were reminded, he is on our side as his job is specifically safety.DBChopper
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Feedback, Redhill
Firstly a sincere thanks to Gary for a great presentation and your much needed input to the industry, it's a great thing you are doing. Phil's point about heli pilots being 'on their own' is a real issue, which your gatherings help to address. I am sure attendance will grow even more.
And thanks to Dennis and Phil for your ongoing and invaluable input to the project and Dave's enlightenment of the CAA viewpoint.
Dennis, we had a bit of a chat about display flying and the developmental phase in the early days- very interesting, thankyou. It seemed it rather had parallels to the developmental phase of kitesurfing of which I was/am a part. Unfortunately in kitesurfing there are even now fatalities and serious injuries on an intolerable scale, largely due to poor equipment design and a lack of an accident reporting program.
The suggestion of a round table or perhaps a few round tables.. was a good idea Dennis, especially at the pub? It seems in one evening one cannot cover everything and perhaps an idea would be to have one feature /case study at each meet discussed in real depth, e.g, there was much discussion about avoiding inadvertant IMC but perhaps not enough conveying of the latter stages of control loss and what actually can happen - and why to prevent or deal with it. I don't know how this can be demonstrated in a presentation, perhaps video. On that point I have a recent experience with IMC in the alps, not flying, but snowboarding that people will find relevant and provokes a thought for training ideas:
Bearing in mind my background is one of a successful career as a kitesurfer and my balance/spatial awareness is fairly well trained, this embarrasing example demonstrates what a 'whiteout' (cloud) can do:
In a complete whiteout on skis, for example, you can spread your feet, use your sticks to feel the ground and stabilise yourself, however on a snowboard you have to balance on either your toes or your heels and have no other reference of touch/contact with the ground. It's all about balance.
I was doing a safe off piste run that I knew well, using some marks to find my way in very poor visibility of about 15m. The marks were about 15m apart.. To get to my favourite bit (which was in better viz lower down in trees) I had to go across a very flat powder field in cloud/ falling snow at slow speed. At one point the viz closed down to about 2m and I could only just see previous tracks 1m in front of my board. With arms out to balance I could not really tell how fast I was moving until I looked down.. I was going very slowly... backwards! The motion of the precipitation was not helping either. I stopped and hunted for the next mark (a stick) and tried to balance... searching out into the murk. I have two sayings that have kept me safe in life: Never move into a space you can't see, and time 'cures' conditions. So I waited, relaxed and patient....basically blind. While standing, waiting for it to clear, I felt a sudden rush of wind on my face... the ole semi circular canals picked up the movement about half way down... I was falling over! Normally one can just step forward but my feet were bound.. Luckily I realised just in time to bend my legs and put a hand out as I came into contact with the snow in Charlie Chaplin type fashion!! It was hilarious at the time but was extremely useful in terms of an excercise in IMC.
Although Sim training is a good idea, I think very useful might be a practical demonstration to pilots that reveals this shortfall in their human balance system; perhaps a white room, standing with feet tight together and mist pumped in.. and padding for when people hit the deck..
And thanks to Dennis and Phil for your ongoing and invaluable input to the project and Dave's enlightenment of the CAA viewpoint.
Dennis, we had a bit of a chat about display flying and the developmental phase in the early days- very interesting, thankyou. It seemed it rather had parallels to the developmental phase of kitesurfing of which I was/am a part. Unfortunately in kitesurfing there are even now fatalities and serious injuries on an intolerable scale, largely due to poor equipment design and a lack of an accident reporting program.
The suggestion of a round table or perhaps a few round tables.. was a good idea Dennis, especially at the pub? It seems in one evening one cannot cover everything and perhaps an idea would be to have one feature /case study at each meet discussed in real depth, e.g, there was much discussion about avoiding inadvertant IMC but perhaps not enough conveying of the latter stages of control loss and what actually can happen - and why to prevent or deal with it. I don't know how this can be demonstrated in a presentation, perhaps video. On that point I have a recent experience with IMC in the alps, not flying, but snowboarding that people will find relevant and provokes a thought for training ideas:
Bearing in mind my background is one of a successful career as a kitesurfer and my balance/spatial awareness is fairly well trained, this embarrasing example demonstrates what a 'whiteout' (cloud) can do:
In a complete whiteout on skis, for example, you can spread your feet, use your sticks to feel the ground and stabilise yourself, however on a snowboard you have to balance on either your toes or your heels and have no other reference of touch/contact with the ground. It's all about balance.
I was doing a safe off piste run that I knew well, using some marks to find my way in very poor visibility of about 15m. The marks were about 15m apart.. To get to my favourite bit (which was in better viz lower down in trees) I had to go across a very flat powder field in cloud/ falling snow at slow speed. At one point the viz closed down to about 2m and I could only just see previous tracks 1m in front of my board. With arms out to balance I could not really tell how fast I was moving until I looked down.. I was going very slowly... backwards! The motion of the precipitation was not helping either. I stopped and hunted for the next mark (a stick) and tried to balance... searching out into the murk. I have two sayings that have kept me safe in life: Never move into a space you can't see, and time 'cures' conditions. So I waited, relaxed and patient....basically blind. While standing, waiting for it to clear, I felt a sudden rush of wind on my face... the ole semi circular canals picked up the movement about half way down... I was falling over! Normally one can just step forward but my feet were bound.. Luckily I realised just in time to bend my legs and put a hand out as I came into contact with the snow in Charlie Chaplin type fashion!! It was hilarious at the time but was extremely useful in terms of an excercise in IMC.
Although Sim training is a good idea, I think very useful might be a practical demonstration to pilots that reveals this shortfall in their human balance system; perhaps a white room, standing with feet tight together and mist pumped in.. and padding for when people hit the deck..
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Actually, reading Dennis' post above, something I'd quite like to see, if at all possible, is something about helicopter aerobatics. I know almost nothing about aerobatics in general, and helicopter aerobatics in particular (beyond that they're not a good idea in an R22), so to hear from someone who actually does/did them would be fascinating.
Areas covered could include:
I'd hoped to ask Dennis about aerobatics at the Wycombe meet, but sadly didn't get the chance. Hence the suggestion
Areas covered could include:
- How does one get into rotary aerobatics
- History
- What permits / licenses / etc are required
- Some moves and how they work
I'd hoped to ask Dennis about aerobatics at the Wycombe meet, but sadly didn't get the chance. Hence the suggestion
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Redhill safety gathering
Thanks Pruners for the input so far ... I'll be discussing these with Gary and Phil and I guess all ideas will go into the pot for future evenings.
Yes ... this prune site can be a postbox for specific agenda ideas. Taken on board.
Ref Pandalet's query.
I would take the view that our safety evenings are not the place for display flying discussions, which is a form of advanced instruction and outside the original remit. I would be happy to chat for ten minutes or so about such flying as a general interest item, but not to deflect from the main thrust of our meetings. SAFETY.
I would be more interested in discussing the tail rotor failure landing techniques I have been obliged to use ... since as I have often said to my pilots, I believe that the bulk of T/R failure handling can be learned by classroom discussion.
Thanks again to all who travelled to make the Redhill evening such a success, and special thanks to Gary and Phil, plus of course Dave from the Authority.
If the present level of enthusiasm can be maintained, I can't help feeling that in time it must be reflected in greater pilot awareness, particularly of IMC incidents.
Best wishes to all,
Dennis Kenyon.
Yes ... this prune site can be a postbox for specific agenda ideas. Taken on board.
Ref Pandalet's query.
I would take the view that our safety evenings are not the place for display flying discussions, which is a form of advanced instruction and outside the original remit. I would be happy to chat for ten minutes or so about such flying as a general interest item, but not to deflect from the main thrust of our meetings. SAFETY.
I would be more interested in discussing the tail rotor failure landing techniques I have been obliged to use ... since as I have often said to my pilots, I believe that the bulk of T/R failure handling can be learned by classroom discussion.
Thanks again to all who travelled to make the Redhill evening such a success, and special thanks to Gary and Phil, plus of course Dave from the Authority.
If the present level of enthusiasm can be maintained, I can't help feeling that in time it must be reflected in greater pilot awareness, particularly of IMC incidents.
Best wishes to all,
Dennis Kenyon.
I've written a brief (for me) summary of the Redhill evening, along with some credits. http://www.helicopter-safety.org/redhill.asp
I hadn't realised just how much time this would take up when it was first discussed funnily enough between David Cockburn (the CAA man who so graciously fielded criticism which was totally unrelated to his role at the authority) and I back in 2004 (I dug the emails out earliuer today, to see if we have missed anything).
I think the format proposed by Dennis will be much more appropriate at the second round of these evenings.
To give you an idea of the thinking behind this, we are trying not to turn anyone away from these evenings and I think that with 51 people in attendance, a less guided approach will turn into total mayhem.
I will continue with the current format, for the first few however I think that if numbers reduce the round the table approach would be ideal. I am hardly an expert at presentations to what I consider to be large groups of people, so I thank everyone for bearing with me on Monday.
The Ivory towers went much better than I could have hoped for, more soon on that.
Cheers
Gary
I hadn't realised just how much time this would take up when it was first discussed funnily enough between David Cockburn (the CAA man who so graciously fielded criticism which was totally unrelated to his role at the authority) and I back in 2004 (I dug the emails out earliuer today, to see if we have missed anything).
I think the format proposed by Dennis will be much more appropriate at the second round of these evenings.
To give you an idea of the thinking behind this, we are trying not to turn anyone away from these evenings and I think that with 51 people in attendance, a less guided approach will turn into total mayhem.
I will continue with the current format, for the first few however I think that if numbers reduce the round the table approach would be ideal. I am hardly an expert at presentations to what I consider to be large groups of people, so I thank everyone for bearing with me on Monday.
The Ivory towers went much better than I could have hoped for, more soon on that.
Cheers
Gary
Last edited by VeeAny; 18th Apr 2008 at 15:28. Reason: Speling, Grammar etc.
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YouTube?
Hi Dennis, Gary, Phil
Unfortunately, I'm based in Spain so I can't practically make the safety evenings.
However, how about a series of 10 minute, subject specific safety briefings - posted on YouTube, and flagged up on Pprune when they're ready.
Inadvertant IMC.....airframe icing........mountain flying.......vortex ring.......TRG failure..........etc,etc.
Not as good as attending in person I grant you, but at least I'd be sober when I was viewing it!
Unfortunately, I'm based in Spain so I can't practically make the safety evenings.
However, how about a series of 10 minute, subject specific safety briefings - posted on YouTube, and flagged up on Pprune when they're ready.
Inadvertant IMC.....airframe icing........mountain flying.......vortex ring.......TRG failure..........etc,etc.
Not as good as attending in person I grant you, but at least I'd be sober when I was viewing it!
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Dennis..
DK. We ran out of time... but the tailrotor failure experience and recoveries were of most interest and not touched on at Redhill. I have a question:
How was the practical experience different to the techniques that are taught. (For example, with engine failure recovery techniques it takes a throttle chop to see the shocking rapidity of the RRPM drop in an R22). There must be some elements during TR failure that you would feel need elaborating on - or impressing on- those of us who have not had the experience of a real tailrotor failure?
What was the the run on like?
Plus what are your thoughts on recovery of C.G shift due to a disintegrating/departing TR gearbox? E.g Bell206
How was the practical experience different to the techniques that are taught. (For example, with engine failure recovery techniques it takes a throttle chop to see the shocking rapidity of the RRPM drop in an R22). There must be some elements during TR failure that you would feel need elaborating on - or impressing on- those of us who have not had the experience of a real tailrotor failure?
What was the the run on like?
Plus what are your thoughts on recovery of C.G shift due to a disintegrating/departing TR gearbox? E.g Bell206
Estepo
I am not sure that any of us would be youtubeable, however we do plan to split up the safety presentations and put them on the safety site as mini power point presentations, with some embedded videos etc. Some of the slides I cannot release publicly as we have had put quite a bit of effort in to getting hold of the information and I've had to sign my life away to get it, for presentation only behind closed doors and not unfortunately on the web.
Keep an eye on the more specific subject matter on the site, it is being [very slowly] built up.
An example of the LTE material (not powerpointed) is here http://www.helicopter-safety.org.uk/...sp?keyword=LTE.
I am doing the same for specific types also such as this for the R44 http://www.helicopter-safety.org.uk/...asp?ACType=R44
Any further ideas always gratefully received, but please remember this all a work in progress.
Cheers
GS
I am not sure that any of us would be youtubeable, however we do plan to split up the safety presentations and put them on the safety site as mini power point presentations, with some embedded videos etc. Some of the slides I cannot release publicly as we have had put quite a bit of effort in to getting hold of the information and I've had to sign my life away to get it, for presentation only behind closed doors and not unfortunately on the web.
Keep an eye on the more specific subject matter on the site, it is being [very slowly] built up.
An example of the LTE material (not powerpointed) is here http://www.helicopter-safety.org.uk/...sp?keyword=LTE.
I am doing the same for specific types also such as this for the R44 http://www.helicopter-safety.org.uk/...asp?ACType=R44
Any further ideas always gratefully received, but please remember this all a work in progress.
Cheers
GS
Last edited by VeeAny; 19th Apr 2008 at 12:18.
Safety evenings and finger trouble!! OOPS!
Sorry but I just managed to 'delete' rather than 'edit' the safety evening thread. Sorry bout that but I blame a 2 yr old drivng me nuts!
Oh well, you'll just have to start another one.
Oh well, you'll just have to start another one.
Just in case the thread can't be resurrected this is what we have been up to
www.helicopter-safety.org
There are pages related to the Newcastle and Redhill safety evenings and a whole lot more.
The thread was started by Helimutt after the Gazelle crash at Rudding Park in January, but was to do with helicopter safety and not that crash specifically which has its own thread.
Please post in this one until we get an answer from the mods about whether the old one can be resurrected, they can always add stuff from here to the old if it comes back.
Gary
www.helicopter-safety.org
There are pages related to the Newcastle and Redhill safety evenings and a whole lot more.
The thread was started by Helimutt after the Gazelle crash at Rudding Park in January, but was to do with helicopter safety and not that crash specifically which has its own thread.
Please post in this one until we get an answer from the mods about whether the old one can be resurrected, they can always add stuff from here to the old if it comes back.
Gary
Last edited by VeeAny; 19th Apr 2008 at 21:03.