UK SAR Harmonisation
Originally Posted by crab
Our normal zero fuel weight is around 15,700 which gives us 5,700 fuel to our max AUM without removing anything
What do you include in that ZFW? Seems quite a lot to an old ASW driver, our APS was about 13700lbs (IIRC), including all the old 195 sonar gear. I thought the earlier SAR Sea Kings (Danish and German) had ~7000lb fuel capacity, do I read that yours are only 6300lb?
I agree the Carson blades will be a big improvement; are you getting them?
TIA
John, about 1200 lbs of SAR role kit and 4 crew @ 200lbs each makes up the 2000lb difference. We use ZFW instead of APS as it includes the crew. Our 6371lb (when gravity refuelled) 6239lbs pressure has always been the same - don't know about the Danish and German SAR SKs, every Mk seems to have a different fuel tank layout and capacity.
There are a number of jungly SKs with Carson blades fitted under a SUR for sandy places and many of us are hoping we can have the whole SK fleet fitted. It deosn't give us more absolute Vmax but makes the same Vmax available throughout most of the flight envelope.
There are a number of jungly SKs with Carson blades fitted under a SUR for sandy places and many of us are hoping we can have the whole SK fleet fitted. It deosn't give us more absolute Vmax but makes the same Vmax available throughout most of the flight envelope.
The commercial 92,s are operating under a gravity refuel only restriction at present post the last fuel tank rupture in the Norwegian sector
Chief Bottle Washer
UK Maritime and Coastguard Agency welcome the AW139 to their fleet, press release:
The first of three brand-new AgustaWestland AW139 helicopters, configured entirely for search and rescue (SAR), were welcomed at the MCAs new state-of-the-art hangar at the Lee-On-The-Solent airfield today. The helicopters will be used primarily on the south coast.
These helicopters are being provided under a service contract to the MCA by CHC Helicopters who won the interim contract to supply the service to the MCA from 2007 to 2012.
The interim contract provides for commercial search and rescue helicopter services from four civilian-operated bases - Sumburgh, Stornoway, Lee-on-the-Solent and Portland - for a five-year period from July 1, 2007.
The service will provide 24-hour coverage at Sumburgh, Stornoway and Lee-on-Solent, and will operate on a 12 hour day-time basis at Portland, in line with current cover.
Two AW139s will be based at Lee on the Solent and one at Portland.
Peter Cardy, Chief Executive, Maritime and Coastguard Agency said:
The MCA are delighted to be able to receive these new AgustaWestland aircraft as part of our strategy of utilising differing aircraft specifically for the varying coastline we enjoy in the United Kingdom.
These new aircraft will be able to fly more quickly, and will be able to fly farther to people in distress at sea than those currently in use.
They have been specifically kitted with various items of advanced technical equipment, including an on board automatic identification system (AIS), specifically designed for the challenges of search and rescue in the 21st Century .
The AW139s are in use on a variety of commercial duties around the world, proving their operational effectiveness and reliability.
The aircraft are also being considered for use in a search and rescue role in Spain, with UAE, Australia, Italian and Japanese authorities also intending to use these aircraft for SAR purposes.
Mr. Cardy continued
We look forward to working with CHC who are fulfilling this key role and taking search and rescue work into a new era, and can bring their wealth of experience of search and rescue and emergency helicopter services in Ireland, Africa, Australia and Norway to the UK.
CHCs UK SAR contract manager Ian McLuskie said
The introduction of the AW139s represents the latest key phase in our work with the MCA to introduce new technology to civilian helicopter search and rescue work in the UK and provide an effective, efficient service that reflects modern-day needs.
Notes to Editors:
Technical Data:
Role Equipment fitted to both Aircraft types
• WINCH – Goodrich dual hoist
• SATCOM - SkyTrac ISAT-100 system fitted to all aircraft - which provides SatPhone voice communications, with an additional two-way text messaging facility - and complete position reporting through the automatic flight following functionality.
• SEARCHLIGHT - Spectrolab SX-16 Nightsun
• FLIR - Wescam MX-15i on each of the proposed Airborne Systems
• RADAR - Honeywell Primus 701 full colour weather/search radar
• HOMER - Chelton 935-11 Direction Finder
• AIS - Saab R4A SAR AIS transponder.
o 3 x AW139
o 2 at Lee on Solent, 1 at Portland
o increase in Radius of Action
o increase in speed (150kts)
o 40% increase in winch speed
o Secondary winch identical to primary winch
o Excellent single engine performance
o Extensive safe operating envelope
o Fully integrated systems and glass cockpit
o Enhanced mission management system with moving map and satcom
o Excellent visual search platform
o Good accessibility – 2 large doors and low sill height
o New technology with anticipated reliability benefits
o Fully duplex autopilot; all aircraft configured the same
o Size, speed and economy benefits suited to south coast SAR operations
o The maximum endurance of the AW139 is 2 hrs 43 minutes at the best cruise speed and 3 hrs 20 minutes at the speed for best endurance. These figures are based on VFR reserves (20 minutes at cruise speed) and maximum auxiliary fuel
Posted By: Rosie Tapping
These helicopters are being provided under a service contract to the MCA by CHC Helicopters who won the interim contract to supply the service to the MCA from 2007 to 2012.
The interim contract provides for commercial search and rescue helicopter services from four civilian-operated bases - Sumburgh, Stornoway, Lee-on-the-Solent and Portland - for a five-year period from July 1, 2007.
The service will provide 24-hour coverage at Sumburgh, Stornoway and Lee-on-Solent, and will operate on a 12 hour day-time basis at Portland, in line with current cover.
Two AW139s will be based at Lee on the Solent and one at Portland.
Peter Cardy, Chief Executive, Maritime and Coastguard Agency said:
The MCA are delighted to be able to receive these new AgustaWestland aircraft as part of our strategy of utilising differing aircraft specifically for the varying coastline we enjoy in the United Kingdom.
These new aircraft will be able to fly more quickly, and will be able to fly farther to people in distress at sea than those currently in use.
They have been specifically kitted with various items of advanced technical equipment, including an on board automatic identification system (AIS), specifically designed for the challenges of search and rescue in the 21st Century .
The AW139s are in use on a variety of commercial duties around the world, proving their operational effectiveness and reliability.
The aircraft are also being considered for use in a search and rescue role in Spain, with UAE, Australia, Italian and Japanese authorities also intending to use these aircraft for SAR purposes.
Mr. Cardy continued
We look forward to working with CHC who are fulfilling this key role and taking search and rescue work into a new era, and can bring their wealth of experience of search and rescue and emergency helicopter services in Ireland, Africa, Australia and Norway to the UK.
CHCs UK SAR contract manager Ian McLuskie said
The introduction of the AW139s represents the latest key phase in our work with the MCA to introduce new technology to civilian helicopter search and rescue work in the UK and provide an effective, efficient service that reflects modern-day needs.
Notes to Editors:
Technical Data:
Role Equipment fitted to both Aircraft types
• WINCH – Goodrich dual hoist
• SATCOM - SkyTrac ISAT-100 system fitted to all aircraft - which provides SatPhone voice communications, with an additional two-way text messaging facility - and complete position reporting through the automatic flight following functionality.
• SEARCHLIGHT - Spectrolab SX-16 Nightsun
• FLIR - Wescam MX-15i on each of the proposed Airborne Systems
• RADAR - Honeywell Primus 701 full colour weather/search radar
• HOMER - Chelton 935-11 Direction Finder
• AIS - Saab R4A SAR AIS transponder.
o 3 x AW139
o 2 at Lee on Solent, 1 at Portland
o increase in Radius of Action
o increase in speed (150kts)
o 40% increase in winch speed
o Secondary winch identical to primary winch
o Excellent single engine performance
o Extensive safe operating envelope
o Fully integrated systems and glass cockpit
o Enhanced mission management system with moving map and satcom
o Excellent visual search platform
o Good accessibility – 2 large doors and low sill height
o New technology with anticipated reliability benefits
o Fully duplex autopilot; all aircraft configured the same
o Size, speed and economy benefits suited to south coast SAR operations
o The maximum endurance of the AW139 is 2 hrs 43 minutes at the best cruise speed and 3 hrs 20 minutes at the speed for best endurance. These figures are based on VFR reserves (20 minutes at cruise speed) and maximum auxiliary fuel
Posted By: Rosie Tapping
'These figures are at maximum auxiliary fuel' - so is the same flannel as with the S92 then? Do you have to fit extra tanks to get the headline RoA and endurance?
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Increased RoA?
Crab,
I also smell a rat. The max speed is quoted as 150kt and the endurances are quoted as at best cruise (2h43m) and best endurance (3h20m) both of which will be <150kts.
Even assuming 150kt throughout, and still air, that gives RoA of 250nm at best endurance and 204nm at best cruise. The optimistic top end of 250nm is hardly a massive improvement on the Sea King Mk3.
Could somebody in the know confirm our suspicions and provide real numbers as opposed to MCA hype?
HAL
I also smell a rat. The max speed is quoted as 150kt and the endurances are quoted as at best cruise (2h43m) and best endurance (3h20m) both of which will be <150kts.
Even assuming 150kt throughout, and still air, that gives RoA of 250nm at best endurance and 204nm at best cruise. The optimistic top end of 250nm is hardly a massive improvement on the Sea King Mk3.
Could somebody in the know confirm our suspicions and provide real numbers as opposed to MCA hype?
HAL
Crab.
I said you would be impressed!
This press release is CHC/MCA 'spin' at its best.
The rumour is that only one aircraft, presumably one at Lee, will have the aux. tank fitted. Therefore be prepared for a lot more tasking to Portlands patch. They will be busy running into somewhere for fuel 60 minutes after arriving on scene. But they will have got there pretty quickly.
3D
I said you would be impressed!
This press release is CHC/MCA 'spin' at its best.
The rumour is that only one aircraft, presumably one at Lee, will have the aux. tank fitted. Therefore be prepared for a lot more tasking to Portlands patch. They will be busy running into somewhere for fuel 60 minutes after arriving on scene. But they will have got there pretty quickly.
3D
I can think of something like this...
AW139 with 4500kg EW
1450kg fuel (due to MTOW 6450kg, this summer 6800?)
cruise 5000' 6ºC Tas 152 (no wind)
back to base at 1000' 16ºC Tas 138 (no wind)
RoA with 30 minutes on station and 30' reserve = +-203Nm
Or like the other day...
80Nm to the search area and 2 hours at 60-70knots (short hover while boat pickup the dead body
) and lading with just 20' of reserve.
But more than 200nm...
Regards
Aser
AW139 with 4500kg EW
1450kg fuel (due to MTOW 6450kg, this summer 6800?)
cruise 5000' 6ºC Tas 152 (no wind)
back to base at 1000' 16ºC Tas 138 (no wind)
RoA with 30 minutes on station and 30' reserve = +-203Nm
Or like the other day...
80Nm to the search area and 2 hours at 60-70knots (short hover while boat pickup the dead body
) and lading with just 20' of reserve.But more than 200nm...
Regards
Aser
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Quote:- "'These figures are at maximum auxiliary fuel' - so is the same flannel as with the S92 then? Do you have to fit extra tanks to get the headline RoA and endurance?"
SARD arrived in Lee yesterday with AUX fuel tank FITTED
SARD arrived in Lee yesterday with AUX fuel tank FITTED
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I notice no mention of survivor capacity in the press release, which worries me, I know that statistically Portland and Solent have at best 1-2 survivors per sortie but there doesn't seem to be much capacity if it is required in the Channel etc
Crab, looks like you will get more shouts my friend!!
(Paint it black and it looks very Airwolf esque!)
Crab, looks like you will get more shouts my friend!!
(Paint it black and it looks very Airwolf esque!)
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Question for those at Lee and Portland. Why, if you have FLIR and a nitesun are you limited to 12 hour ops? It seems such an anomaly.
Ref survivor capacity of the 139, out of curiosity what is the maximum number of survivors lifted from a ship by a Seaking or S61? I notice this line from the blurb, Size, speed and economy benefits suited to south coast SAR operations so presume a larger aircraft is deemed unnecessary by those who make the decisions.
Ref survivor capacity of the 139, out of curiosity what is the maximum number of survivors lifted from a ship by a Seaking or S61? I notice this line from the blurb, Size, speed and economy benefits suited to south coast SAR operations so presume a larger aircraft is deemed unnecessary by those who make the decisions.
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I suggest it would be fair to say, if you used all three 139s you would come up short on the S-61 for casualty lift. Perhaps when it comes to the refuel the MCA's Islander can trundle round from kent and lob a dinghy at whoever is left in the water before the 139s come back!
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Maximum number of survivors
Bootneck asks the maximum number of survivors lifted. I believe that 35 were lifted from the fishing vessel Green Lily by a S61.
TD
TD
Portland aircraft lifted 12 off "Ice Prince" in January before having to go back for fuel. Then returned to lift a further 8 but not needed. They were taken off by lifeboat in horrendous conditions, some of the survivors jumping straight to the lifeboat and being very lucky to be pulled on board! The lifeboat cox is up for an award for this job.
BTW this was all after 2100hrs.
No matter what the MCA are saying, the 139 would not have been able to do the job but they are hoping it just does not happen again.
BTW this was all after 2100hrs.
No matter what the MCA are saying, the 139 would not have been able to do the job but they are hoping it just does not happen again.
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3D
When you transfer over to CHC in a few days time, will you still be wagging that finger? It is the aircraft that has been chosen, right or wrong it is what you and the rest at Lee & Portland will have to work with and continue to do your best. No one is forcing you to transfer, so you can stay on a S61 or whatever else they have at Bristow doing line flying...perhaps its time you took your negative, anti change attitude away from front line SAR.
Don't drag down the attempts by those individuals currently trying to make the team and new cabs work. You may well be right that it is not the 'correct type' for UK SAR but the professionals working on the units will do their best regardless....will you do them a favour and get onboard with them? I'm sure BHL will be happy to keep you if not. Your mission should you decide to accept is to ‘shut up and get on with it’
Don't drag down the attempts by those individuals currently trying to make the team and new cabs work. You may well be right that it is not the 'correct type' for UK SAR but the professionals working on the units will do their best regardless....will you do them a favour and get onboard with them? I'm sure BHL will be happy to keep you if not. Your mission should you decide to accept is to ‘shut up and get on with it’
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Size matters
The flaw in the "it's not big enough" logic is where do you draw the line? If, for example, a ferry with 200 people on board is sinking then a Sea King or S61 isn't big enough either. If the majority of rescues involve lifting 1 or 2 survivors,and I don't know what the stats are but I would guess it's in the 90 - 97% range, then surely an aircraft optimised for that role is the best use of limited resources?