UK SAR Harmonisation
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Engineers wages: It's no real secret if you know where to look.
Most MOD connected contracts offer in the mid-to-highish 20k. Most commercial helicopter operators (non-offshore) pay mid 30k. Offshore operators pay 40k+.
These are general estimates, before anyone jumps down my throat, depends on company and contracts they are supporting etc, etc..
Most MOD connected contracts offer in the mid-to-highish 20k. Most commercial helicopter operators (non-offshore) pay mid 30k. Offshore operators pay 40k+.
These are general estimates, before anyone jumps down my throat, depends on company and contracts they are supporting etc, etc..
Crab.
Engine out three times? This will be the last then, before you change the engine and HSS ? Does the Gnome still have the detuning weights on the support tube? That's not a clue, just a question because the CT58 doesn't.
The 3D Cam is the bit inside the FCU that basically controls everything the FCU does.(Other than the seat/speed select interface.) A piece of metal with various profiles and cambers machined onto it. If I had a piccie then I would post it. As 212man said previously, all done using a slide rule. No computers in those days. Engineers were real engineers then!
Now you have the facts about salaries as well. See why good old Wastelands failed to tempt many people? Doing things on the cheap, as usual!! But still ripping off the taxpayer!
Engine out three times? This will be the last then, before you change the engine and HSS ? Does the Gnome still have the detuning weights on the support tube? That's not a clue, just a question because the CT58 doesn't.
The 3D Cam is the bit inside the FCU that basically controls everything the FCU does.(Other than the seat/speed select interface.) A piece of metal with various profiles and cambers machined onto it. If I had a piccie then I would post it. As 212man said previously, all done using a slide rule. No computers in those days. Engineers were real engineers then!
Now you have the facts about salaries as well. See why good old Wastelands failed to tempt many people? Doing things on the cheap, as usual!! But still ripping off the taxpayer!
So what does the SARH future hold for the engineering side then? If there is a dearth of licensed engineers, where will CHC/Bristow/whoever get their engineers from? None of the guys on the AW/VT contract are licensed and if the 6 RAF and 1 RN (Culdrose is very unlikely to lose its SAR) that is another 42 engineers plus eng managers to find from nowhere. Let the poaching begin
This is another financial burden that is borne by the military - training engineers - and one which will have to be factored in to make SARH sustainable in the future.
Interestingly, on the employment of ex-mil front, most of the people I know who have left recently have stepped straight into training jobs because of the quality of their CVs and their professional capabilities - how come these posts can't be filled from the civilian sector?
This is another financial burden that is borne by the military - training engineers - and one which will have to be factored in to make SARH sustainable in the future.
Interestingly, on the employment of ex-mil front, most of the people I know who have left recently have stepped straight into training jobs because of the quality of their CVs and their professional capabilities - how come these posts can't be filled from the civilian sector?
Crab, I thought I had a picture but can't find one. Visualise a coke can that you stepped on and only partialy crushed - that's what a 3-D cam looks like, only it's designed like that. Another way to think of it is if you have seen the 3-D computer drawn fuel scheduling/mapping graphs that a car ECU uses, then carve one from a cylinder of metal.
Having said all that - the 212 looks like the latest in FADEC control when viewed side by side!
Having said all that - the 212 looks like the latest in FADEC control when viewed side by side!
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Crab
Quote:- "Interestingly, on the employment of ex-mil front, most of the people I know who have left recently have stepped straight into training jobs because of the quality of their CVs and their professional capabilities"
Safe to say this won't be happening to you Crab
Quote:- "Interestingly, on the employment of ex-mil front, most of the people I know who have left recently have stepped straight into training jobs because of the quality of their CVs and their professional capabilities"
Safe to say this won't be happening to you Crab
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Crab
Some of your thoughts are well meaning and valid, others verging on humourous, but always let down by your overall attitude. A shame.
A word of advise
Until you have taken and passed your CIVILIAN exams you are NOT QUALIFIED to even fly rubber dog**** out of Hong Kong
Some of your thoughts are well meaning and valid, others verging on humourous, but always let down by your overall attitude. A shame.
A word of advise
Until you have taken and passed your CIVILIAN exams you are NOT QUALIFIED to even fly rubber dog**** out of Hong Kong
Doorstopper - just to put you back in your box, I have held an ATPL(H) since 1991 - is that good enough for you?
Rescue 1 - I dunno, just how many A2 QHI/IRE SAR boys with recent training officer experience on front-line SAR squadrons do you have working for you
Rescue 1 - I dunno, just how many A2 QHI/IRE SAR boys with recent training officer experience on front-line SAR squadrons do you have working for you
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Crabb
Haha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Its taken you over 3 years but you got there! Someone final did the not qualified to fly rubber dog doo doo etc! You have been baiting them for so long and then you go for the big reveal! Ha! They put em up and you knock em down!
Anyway, your wrong!
Not about that but about engineers. Some of us are already looking at how you train the next generation - and have been looking at this for some time. So, yep poaching for some areas, but everyone recognises the shortage and what needs to be done. Now some of us are actually out there trying to solve it and are not relying on the military.
And not every contract pays the same. If you get time to plan you can reflect market forces in your bids for SAR-H. Then cut back latter when they havent got the money!
SARREMF signing off from Poland. Damn! Dont tell him your name Pike!
Haha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Its taken you over 3 years but you got there! Someone final did the not qualified to fly rubber dog doo doo etc! You have been baiting them for so long and then you go for the big reveal! Ha! They put em up and you knock em down!
Anyway, your wrong!
Not about that but about engineers. Some of us are already looking at how you train the next generation - and have been looking at this for some time. So, yep poaching for some areas, but everyone recognises the shortage and what needs to be done. Now some of us are actually out there trying to solve it and are not relying on the military.
And not every contract pays the same. If you get time to plan you can reflect market forces in your bids for SAR-H. Then cut back latter when they havent got the money!
SARREMF signing off from Poland. Damn! Dont tell him your name Pike!
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I have to ask Crab, did you get your ATPL via the CAA dispensation for the QHIs and 38 group or did you actually sweat? 
The reason I ask. I was working out of Sumburgh, bumbling along in a 61 with a former service colleague who was a QHI, hadn't sat the exams as he was given the dipensation, and was then the training Capt for the operation. He asked, "How does an ILS work?" I told him I was busy and this wasn't a check ride. He looked sheepish and told me it was the only safe environment he could ask the question as he had never had to study for the exams.
The reason I ask. I was working out of Sumburgh, bumbling along in a 61 with a former service colleague who was a QHI, hadn't sat the exams as he was given the dipensation, and was then the training Capt for the operation. He asked, "How does an ILS work?" I told him I was busy and this wasn't a check ride. He looked sheepish and told me it was the only safe environment he could ask the question as he had never had to study for the exams.
Bootneck - Lights, law and loading were the exams I took and frankly when I see some of the irrelevant sh*te that some have to learn for their ATPL I am very glad I benefitted from the 18 GP maritime (yes I was a SAR boy then as well) dispensations. Are there some green-eyed monsters out there?
And yes, I do know how an ILS works.....it's pixies isn't it?
SARREMF - yes I love it when a plan comes together!! It is the short term shortage of engineers that needs addressing, fairly urgently by the sound of it so good luck. Poland eh......try nicking the carp out of their lakes and see how they like it
And yes, I do know how an ILS works.....it's pixies isn't it?
SARREMF - yes I love it when a plan comes together!! It is the short term shortage of engineers that needs addressing, fairly urgently by the sound of it so good luck. Poland eh......try nicking the carp out of their lakes and see how they like it
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Lights, law and loading were the exams I took and frankly when I see some of the irrelevant sh*te that some have to learn for their ATPL
I suppose it's too easy using this internettyweb device to be supercilious, so I won't. However, please do continue using the yellow aeroplanes, as your preferred option. Serious IFR work requires knowledge. (Before you ask, yes I can use a hook.)
Crab, start digging a deep sangar. Innnnnnkkkuuummmmmin!
I suppose it's too easy using this internettyweb device to be supercilious, so I won't. However, please do continue using the yellow aeroplanes, as your preferred option. Serious IFR work requires knowledge. (Before you ask, yes I can use a hook.)
Crab, start digging a deep sangar. Innnnnnkkkuuummmmmin!
.......you didnt need to be a QHI or in 38 gp in the early 90's!!...
.............. 2000 mil hrs and "combat ready" (or SAR "C" cat) and a mil instrument rating did nicely!
(with Air Law, Lights, RT, class 1 med and a civvie LST for your licence issue.)
Mine hung on the wall of my office inside a glass fronted box annotated;
"In Case of Emergency; Break Glass"
In the end it came in quite handy.
.............. 2000 mil hrs and "combat ready" (or SAR "C" cat) and a mil instrument rating did nicely!
(with Air Law, Lights, RT, class 1 med and a civvie LST for your licence issue.)
Mine hung on the wall of my office inside a glass fronted box annotated;
"In Case of Emergency; Break Glass"
In the end it came in quite handy.
Bootneck - maybe that's why we all have full procedural IR s in SAR then and why I get to be the Command IRE to examine and award IRs and IRE's.
Maybe such knowledge wasn't required when you were in but now the lads and lasses do a procedural course at DHFS as part of their Shawbury course.
Nice try at being supercilious but you just about managed petty The irrelevant ****e was some of the trans-atlantic planning I have seen people swot up on - things may have changed in the exams now, the CAA may have made them more relevant to helicopters but I doubt it.
Bertie - exactly the same reason I got mine in the first place - just in case.
Maybe such knowledge wasn't required when you were in but now the lads and lasses do a procedural course at DHFS as part of their Shawbury course.
Nice try at being supercilious but you just about managed petty
The irrelevant ****e was some of the trans-atlantic planning I have seen people swot up on - things may have changed in the exams now, the CAA may have made them more relevant to helicopters but I doubt it.Bertie - exactly the same reason I got mine in the first place - just in case.
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I dont believe it!
What dispensations!
I did ALL 15 exams for the ATPL(A) then had to pay for the tech group for rotary and only sit the P of F exam! I loved calculating the mid sector weight of the fictional aircraft [Tristar] so you could work out some blah about blah! [B Cat Op Captain with lots of hours at the time!]
Did learn a lot about avionics I didn't know. Not sure how relevant it was though? Do I really need to know about the lobes? Knowlege of Loran and Decca was second to none - and removed from the aircraft - after studying.
Anyway, the slides rules for the civy side were so much cooler than the RAF ones! Not sure how they work mind, but wow impressive look!Thats a joke! I do know how it works! You twizzle the inner duffer thingy against the outer bezel and read the answer at the triangle! Simple really!
Crabb - Poland was just to put you off the sent! Greetings from the QHCI thread!
What dispensations!
I did ALL 15 exams for the ATPL(A) then had to pay for the tech group for rotary and only sit the P of F exam! I loved calculating the mid sector weight of the fictional aircraft [Tristar] so you could work out some blah about blah! [B Cat Op Captain with lots of hours at the time!]
Did learn a lot about avionics I didn't know. Not sure how relevant it was though? Do I really need to know about the lobes? Knowlege of Loran and Decca was second to none - and removed from the aircraft - after studying.
Anyway, the slides rules for the civy side were so much cooler than the RAF ones! Not sure how they work mind, but wow impressive look!Thats a joke! I do know how it works! You twizzle the inner duffer thingy against the outer bezel and read the answer at the triangle! Simple really!
Crabb - Poland was just to put you off the sent! Greetings from the QHCI thread!
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Crab, here's an example of why recruiting engineers for MOD SAR is a problem:
Senior Technician (Avionics)
United Kingdom, South West West Yorkshire
Salary: £24594 - £26694 per annum
Permanent opportunities in helicopter engineering and maintenance in search and rescue. We are recruiting forces or ex-forces personnel for vacancies in search and rescue (SAR) helicopter engineering and maintenance in the UK. We are looking for senior technicians with avionics experience at Boulmer (Tyneside), Leconfield (Hull), Chivenor (N Devon), Valley (N Wales) and Wattisham (Ipswich). Applicants will need to have reached Corporal/Leading Hand level or higher. Civilians with NVQ level 3 and apprenticeship with relevant experience will be considered. Candidates will need
Contract: Permanent
21/12/2007
I was earning that in the Mob back in 1999 as a S/NCO technician.
An avionics engineer nowadays wouldn't put their overalls on for that (it's a difficult enough task to get them to do so anyway).
Senior Technician (Avionics)
United Kingdom, South West West Yorkshire
Salary: £24594 - £26694 per annum
Permanent opportunities in helicopter engineering and maintenance in search and rescue. We are recruiting forces or ex-forces personnel for vacancies in search and rescue (SAR) helicopter engineering and maintenance in the UK. We are looking for senior technicians with avionics experience at Boulmer (Tyneside), Leconfield (Hull), Chivenor (N Devon), Valley (N Wales) and Wattisham (Ipswich). Applicants will need to have reached Corporal/Leading Hand level or higher. Civilians with NVQ level 3 and apprenticeship with relevant experience will be considered. Candidates will need
Contract: Permanent
21/12/2007
I was earning that in the Mob back in 1999 as a S/NCO technician.
An avionics engineer nowadays wouldn't put their overalls on for that (it's a difficult enough task to get them to do so anyway
).
Bootneck
Slight thread creep but your comment "Serious IFR work requires knowledge" did make me chuckle. Although I left the RAF some time ago, as an IRE, I think that the practical knowledge and skills of a military pilot far outways what a pure civilain pilot brings to the table.
That is not to say that a civilian trained pilot is not a perfectly capable and safe operator it is just not true what you implied in your post.
I have seen inexperienced civilian trained pilots get into a right old tizz when the RNAV fails or gives odd readings as they are so reliant on it and will believe the figures despite what you see out of the window. One example - RNAV wind at 90deg to windlanes - RNAV wind believed despite gentle hint that it was odd that forecast wind was 90deg out!! Also unfamiliarity with how to do a radio aids nav just using VOR/DME/NDB when RNAV packs up.
Your other comment :-
"I may be out of touch on timings these days but a Super Puma or S61 would go into the Bristow heavy hangar for a total strip down to the rivets, then be back online, shiny new paint job and air tested in three weeks. Unbelievable, maybe, but it's true. "
Is totally unbelievable- I have never seen a 61 or Puma come out of a G Check in 3 weeks - 6 weeks more likely although we are waiting for an a/c to come out of a G check that went in in July 07!!
Civilian and RAF/RN have both got enormous amounts of experience and operating methods to bring to the new SAR organisation but it will need skilled amalgamation to bring the best out of both systems.
HF
Slight thread creep but your comment "Serious IFR work requires knowledge" did make me chuckle. Although I left the RAF some time ago, as an IRE, I think that the practical knowledge and skills of a military pilot far outways what a pure civilain pilot brings to the table.
That is not to say that a civilian trained pilot is not a perfectly capable and safe operator it is just not true what you implied in your post.
I have seen inexperienced civilian trained pilots get into a right old tizz when the RNAV fails or gives odd readings as they are so reliant on it and will believe the figures despite what you see out of the window. One example - RNAV wind at 90deg to windlanes - RNAV wind believed despite gentle hint that it was odd that forecast wind was 90deg out!! Also unfamiliarity with how to do a radio aids nav just using VOR/DME/NDB when RNAV packs up.
Your other comment :-
"I may be out of touch on timings these days but a Super Puma or S61 would go into the Bristow heavy hangar for a total strip down to the rivets, then be back online, shiny new paint job and air tested in three weeks. Unbelievable, maybe, but it's true. "
Is totally unbelievable- I have never seen a 61 or Puma come out of a G Check in 3 weeks - 6 weeks more likely although we are waiting for an a/c to come out of a G check that went in in July 07!!
Civilian and RAF/RN have both got enormous amounts of experience and operating methods to bring to the new SAR organisation but it will need skilled amalgamation to bring the best out of both systems.
HF