Canada: Cormorant & Cyclone thread
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I won't say I told you so.....
My man on the inside tells me that the Canadian Government has requested a meeting with 'another supplier' to discuss the purchase of a Sea King replacement aircraft due to problems with their current airframe vendor.
The 'another supplier' is based in North America with partners in the UK and Italy who will manufacture the airframe..
The rest is up to you to work out!
The 'another supplier' is based in North America with partners in the UK and Italy who will manufacture the airframe..
The rest is up to you to work out!
Oh lordy......meet with a new builder of helicopters....let's kick this can a bit further down the lane shall we?
The Government made the decision to replace the Sea King seventeen years ago.....before they decided not to replace it.....and decided to replace it....and now they want to replace the aircraft they wanted/did not want/wanted....and they have not laid hands of the first one yet?
Perhaps Lockheed can build one for them like the US Prez aircraft which is so much further down the production ine?
In the end they could buy CH-53K's for what they are spending on paper helicopters.
The Government made the decision to replace the Sea King seventeen years ago.....before they decided not to replace it.....and decided to replace it....and now they want to replace the aircraft they wanted/did not want/wanted....and they have not laid hands of the first one yet?
Perhaps Lockheed can build one for them like the US Prez aircraft which is so much further down the production ine?
In the end they could buy CH-53K's for what they are spending on paper helicopters.
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SAS Less - /CH53K
SASLess:
Although the CH-53 may be available by 2012 (0r 2015, if it follows the pattern of Sikorsky's reported progress on the H-92), it could have some difficulty landing on the decks of small frigates.
With respect to the Presidential aircraft, I note that although the contract was let some time after Sikorsky's Canadian contract, the first US101 test aircraft flew a year ago, and they now have several hundred flight test hours on that and another one. Sikorsky has yet to fly prototype 1 of the Canadian version.
At least the reported H-92 rate of progress is consistent with the extended development period of the original S-92. That period, though, is hardly a knock on Sikorsky. It is perfectly understandable that an entirely company funded development may have been constrained by available funds.
It seems that almost all airframers have gotten in the habit of making solemn promises of rapid development and delivery and then suffering scorn and ignominy when the development time turns out to be just as the old wise heads would have said. (Airbus A380, Boeing 787, JSF being only the most recent examples)
Companies today are run by the marketeers. The pilots and engineers left after the cuts of the late '90s don't have the ear of management, perhaps partly because of lesser experience, perhaps partly because no one wants a realist (dour pessimist in a marketeers lexicon) to dampen the rosy predictions.
The other main problem is that customers are more naive, and it is easy to believe brochure claims for nonexistent aircraft. Such vehicles haven't yet demonstrated their flaws, while off the shelf aircraft have documented problems and limitations.
It seems we are seeing some of the corollaries of Norm Augustine's laws being demonstrated.
Although the CH-53 may be available by 2012 (0r 2015, if it follows the pattern of Sikorsky's reported progress on the H-92), it could have some difficulty landing on the decks of small frigates.
With respect to the Presidential aircraft, I note that although the contract was let some time after Sikorsky's Canadian contract, the first US101 test aircraft flew a year ago, and they now have several hundred flight test hours on that and another one. Sikorsky has yet to fly prototype 1 of the Canadian version.
At least the reported H-92 rate of progress is consistent with the extended development period of the original S-92. That period, though, is hardly a knock on Sikorsky. It is perfectly understandable that an entirely company funded development may have been constrained by available funds.
It seems that almost all airframers have gotten in the habit of making solemn promises of rapid development and delivery and then suffering scorn and ignominy when the development time turns out to be just as the old wise heads would have said. (Airbus A380, Boeing 787, JSF being only the most recent examples)
Companies today are run by the marketeers. The pilots and engineers left after the cuts of the late '90s don't have the ear of management, perhaps partly because of lesser experience, perhaps partly because no one wants a realist (dour pessimist in a marketeers lexicon) to dampen the rosy predictions.
The other main problem is that customers are more naive, and it is easy to believe brochure claims for nonexistent aircraft. Such vehicles haven't yet demonstrated their flaws, while off the shelf aircraft have documented problems and limitations.
It seems we are seeing some of the corollaries of Norm Augustine's laws being demonstrated.
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I still wonder why AW dropped their lawsuit against the Cdn Government. The lawsuit was based on the notion that Sikorsky could not deliver within 48 months of contract award, as was clearly stated in the contract requirements, and therefore should have been found non-compliant and eliminated. They quietly dropped the suit about six months ago in order to normalize the Cdn Gov/AW relationship in order to be considered for future work. Not at all like AW to walk away like that?
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Cyclone 1st Flight
CH-148 Cyclone Helicopter Completes 1st Flight Successfully
(West Palm Beach, Fla., November 17, 2008) -- The first CH-148 Cyclone helicopter, which is being developed by Sikorsky Aircraft Corp. for the Canadian government as a replacement for its long-serving SEA KING(TM) helicopter fleet, has completed its first flight successfully at Sikorsky's Development Flight Center in Florida. Sikorsky is a subsidiary of United Technologies Corp. (NYSE: UTX).
The flight occurred Saturday, Nov. 15. Steered by Sikorsky Test Pilots John Armbrust and Rick Becker using state-of-the-art, fly-by-wire technology, the aircraft hovered and accomplished low-speed handling tasks including forward flight at speeds reaching 30 knots, and sideward and rearward maneuvers. The helicopter, Tail No. 801, will continue to undergo a series of increasingly demanding flight tests leading up to certification and production deliveries.
Sikorsky will build 28 CH-148 helicopters for the Canadian government. "The CH-148 helicopter will be a world leader in sophistication and capability for maritime helicopters," said Program Manager Dan Hunter. "Today's successful first flight represents a huge milestone, transitioning the program from the prototype build to the flight test stage. The aircraft performed beautifully, easily achieving each maneuver attempted. We're extremely pleased."
The CH-148 helicopter represents the next step in Sikorsky's long planned extension of the S-92(R) helicopter into the H-92(TM) helicopter product line. It is equipped with a fully digital, fly-by-wire system designed to improve significantly the aircraft's maneuverability, safety and effectiveness. The CH-148 helicopter further builds upon Sikorsky's rugged S-92 helicopter, which meets the most demanding safety standards in North America and Europe.
Among the most sophisticated rotary wing aircraft in the world, the production CH-148 helicopter will be an extremely versatile, multi-mission aircraft with capabilities including anti-submarine warfare, anti-surface warfare, search and rescue, and troop and cargo transport. It will be fully equipped for ship-based operations including automatic blade and tail fold systems and a deck to aircraft recovery assist system. Capitalizing on proven S-92 helicopter capabilities that include a glass cockpit with advanced avionics, systems allowing flight into known icing conditions, flaw tolerant components and state-of-the-art search and rescue equipment, the CH-148 helicopter will incorporate additional mission systems including Forward- Looking Infrared Radar (FLIR), 360 degree search radar, passive and active acoustics systems, threat surveillance and countermeasure capabilities, and network link communications.
"The stringent qualification and certification standards of the S-92 helicopter will be further extended through the Canadian military certification process resulting in an aircraft that will meet the most exacting civil and military standards in the world," said Hunter. "Its proven and expanded design focused on reliability, maintainability and safety will provide operational capabilities at world-class life cycle support cost levels."
(West Palm Beach, Fla., November 17, 2008) -- The first CH-148 Cyclone helicopter, which is being developed by Sikorsky Aircraft Corp. for the Canadian government as a replacement for its long-serving SEA KING(TM) helicopter fleet, has completed its first flight successfully at Sikorsky's Development Flight Center in Florida. Sikorsky is a subsidiary of United Technologies Corp. (NYSE: UTX).
The flight occurred Saturday, Nov. 15. Steered by Sikorsky Test Pilots John Armbrust and Rick Becker using state-of-the-art, fly-by-wire technology, the aircraft hovered and accomplished low-speed handling tasks including forward flight at speeds reaching 30 knots, and sideward and rearward maneuvers. The helicopter, Tail No. 801, will continue to undergo a series of increasingly demanding flight tests leading up to certification and production deliveries.
Sikorsky will build 28 CH-148 helicopters for the Canadian government. "The CH-148 helicopter will be a world leader in sophistication and capability for maritime helicopters," said Program Manager Dan Hunter. "Today's successful first flight represents a huge milestone, transitioning the program from the prototype build to the flight test stage. The aircraft performed beautifully, easily achieving each maneuver attempted. We're extremely pleased."
The CH-148 helicopter represents the next step in Sikorsky's long planned extension of the S-92(R) helicopter into the H-92(TM) helicopter product line. It is equipped with a fully digital, fly-by-wire system designed to improve significantly the aircraft's maneuverability, safety and effectiveness. The CH-148 helicopter further builds upon Sikorsky's rugged S-92 helicopter, which meets the most demanding safety standards in North America and Europe.
Among the most sophisticated rotary wing aircraft in the world, the production CH-148 helicopter will be an extremely versatile, multi-mission aircraft with capabilities including anti-submarine warfare, anti-surface warfare, search and rescue, and troop and cargo transport. It will be fully equipped for ship-based operations including automatic blade and tail fold systems and a deck to aircraft recovery assist system. Capitalizing on proven S-92 helicopter capabilities that include a glass cockpit with advanced avionics, systems allowing flight into known icing conditions, flaw tolerant components and state-of-the-art search and rescue equipment, the CH-148 helicopter will incorporate additional mission systems including Forward- Looking Infrared Radar (FLIR), 360 degree search radar, passive and active acoustics systems, threat surveillance and countermeasure capabilities, and network link communications.
"The stringent qualification and certification standards of the S-92 helicopter will be further extended through the Canadian military certification process resulting in an aircraft that will meet the most exacting civil and military standards in the world," said Hunter. "Its proven and expanded design focused on reliability, maintainability and safety will provide operational capabilities at world-class life cycle support cost levels."
What is new? most products don't work as described, or have built in problems that the end user has to put up with until the manufacturer finds time to correct, ( strange how the user finds them in a few days\ weeks after all the testing that is done).
Delivery dates!! Well we think of one then hope we can get it finished or hope that customer wants change so as to extend delivery .
You may guess I have delivery \ functional problems with a supplier, it requires someone who can deliver a bit of pain to manufacturers to focus the sales marketing departments on reality.
A lot of products are UPOS.
Rant over
Delivery dates!! Well we think of one then hope we can get it finished or hope that customer wants change so as to extend delivery .
You may guess I have delivery \ functional problems with a supplier, it requires someone who can deliver a bit of pain to manufacturers to focus the sales marketing departments on reality.
A lot of products are UPOS.
Rant over
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Originally Posted by plt_aeroeng
Companies today are run by the marketeers. The pilots and engineers left after the cuts of the late '90s don't have the ear of management, perhaps partly because of lesser experience, perhaps partly because no one wants a realist (dour pessimist in a marketeers lexicon) to dampen the rosy predictions.
When did any of us look at an amber caption (through rose tinted helmet visor) and say - oh, I am sure it will be OK, let's ignore it. Thankfully we ARE trained to be dour pessimists!
It is a shame this is only recognized as an attribute in the cockpit!
Plt....
My point was not to actually suggest the 53K be bought....but to point out the amount of money that has already been spent for paper helicopters would pay for brand spanking new 53K's. That even by government standards is a pot full of money to go no good end.
Which is a situation that should result in someone being hung from the yard arm!
My point was not to actually suggest the 53K be bought....but to point out the amount of money that has already been spent for paper helicopters would pay for brand spanking new 53K's. That even by government standards is a pot full of money to go no good end.
Which is a situation that should result in someone being hung from the yard arm!
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Cyclones fail endurance test - Winnipeg Free Press
"Paul Jackson, a spokesman for Sikorsky, confirmed the interim maritime helicopter will be 10 to 20 minutes short of the 170-minute requirement."
"He added that the company will achieve the requirement by decreasing the aircraft's weight and improving the engine's power capabilities and transmission."
I tell my wife I'm going to lose weight too
What is the curent S92 endurance in standard offshore config.
"Paul Jackson, a spokesman for Sikorsky, confirmed the interim maritime helicopter will be 10 to 20 minutes short of the 170-minute requirement."
"He added that the company will achieve the requirement by decreasing the aircraft's weight and improving the engine's power capabilities and transmission."
I tell my wife I'm going to lose weight too
What is the curent S92 endurance in standard offshore config.
We don't know the mission profile being set, so can't make a comparison. It's clearly not a straight cruise profile - more likely a high speed cruise with some loitering and/or hovering involved. Current offshore aircraft will cruise for over 3 hours with reserves. Even with a fuel burn of 1600 lb/hr you'd have 3 hours and a 15 minute reserve - and that's way above typical fuel burn (nearer 1400 lb/hr)
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Cyclones fail endurance test - Winnipeg Free Press
The story is all so familiar in Australia. A contractor promising the problems will be resolved, the customer not prepared to admit they made a mistake trying to develop a "new" naval helicopter.
Will it all end in tears or will the the Canadian government continue to lap up Sikorsky's excuses?
Cyclones fail endurance test
But colonel sure contract will be met
By: Michael Tutton
19/08/2009 1:00 AM |
Ottawa agreed to pay $5 billion in 2004 for 28 Sikorsky Cyclone helicopters.
HALIFAX -- The Canadian officer who will oversee the first flights of Canada's new fleet of navy helicopters next year says the choppers currently can't pass an endurance test that requires them to fly for nearly three hours in extreme conditions.
"It (the helicopter) falls short of the endurance requirement as allowed under the revised contract," Col. Sam Michaud, commander of Nova Scotia's 12 Wing Shearwater airbase, said.
The MH-92 Cyclone helicopter's original contract had specified that 28 choppers be delivered, at a rate of one per month, beginning in November 2008.
However, a revised contract announced last year allowed for the delivery to begin in November 2010. It also doesn't require the choppers to meet the 170-minute flying time until after the 19th helicopter has been delivered in 2012.
But Michaud said he's confident the Cyclones will satisfy the requirement, and that the aging fleet of Sea King choppers can operate until then.
Still, he agreed there will be some limits -- such as shorter missions and the need to use more helicopters to perform the same mission -- until the endurance requirement is met.
"So right now, the issue with the interim maritime helicopters is they're having some challenges getting to that endurance number that we've asked for," Michaud said.
The base commander explained that the helicopter is heavier than originally expected, and as a result fuel is consumed more quickly.
"That's why the whole weight issue is a big one," Michaud said.
He said that's why the federal government requirement of flying two hours and 50 minutes in conditions where temperatures surpass 35 C won't be met when the first choppers arrive.
Paul Jackson, a spokesman for Sikorsky, confirmed the interim maritime helicopter will be 10 to 20 minutes short of the 170-minute requirement.
But he said the company has little doubt it can achieve the federal government's performance requirements under the revised contract.
"Meeting the final configuration performance as required in the extreme conditions that this customer operates (in) is important," he said in an email. "We do not consider weight as a big issue."
He added that the company will achieve the requirement by decreasing the aircraft's weight and improving the engine's power capabilities and transmission.
Lianne LeBel, a spokeswoman for the Defence Department, said the final helicopter will have "an enhanced version" of the engine as designed in the original Cyclone.
That engine will be designed to lift the 13,185 kilograms the helicopter is expected to weigh by 2012, she said.
The government has said the new engines and other changes will add $117 million to the $5-billion cost.
-- The Canadian Press
But colonel sure contract will be met
By: Michael Tutton
19/08/2009 1:00 AM |
Ottawa agreed to pay $5 billion in 2004 for 28 Sikorsky Cyclone helicopters.
HALIFAX -- The Canadian officer who will oversee the first flights of Canada's new fleet of navy helicopters next year says the choppers currently can't pass an endurance test that requires them to fly for nearly three hours in extreme conditions.
"It (the helicopter) falls short of the endurance requirement as allowed under the revised contract," Col. Sam Michaud, commander of Nova Scotia's 12 Wing Shearwater airbase, said.
The MH-92 Cyclone helicopter's original contract had specified that 28 choppers be delivered, at a rate of one per month, beginning in November 2008.
However, a revised contract announced last year allowed for the delivery to begin in November 2010. It also doesn't require the choppers to meet the 170-minute flying time until after the 19th helicopter has been delivered in 2012.
But Michaud said he's confident the Cyclones will satisfy the requirement, and that the aging fleet of Sea King choppers can operate until then.
Still, he agreed there will be some limits -- such as shorter missions and the need to use more helicopters to perform the same mission -- until the endurance requirement is met.
"So right now, the issue with the interim maritime helicopters is they're having some challenges getting to that endurance number that we've asked for," Michaud said.
The base commander explained that the helicopter is heavier than originally expected, and as a result fuel is consumed more quickly.
"That's why the whole weight issue is a big one," Michaud said.
He said that's why the federal government requirement of flying two hours and 50 minutes in conditions where temperatures surpass 35 C won't be met when the first choppers arrive.
Paul Jackson, a spokesman for Sikorsky, confirmed the interim maritime helicopter will be 10 to 20 minutes short of the 170-minute requirement.
But he said the company has little doubt it can achieve the federal government's performance requirements under the revised contract.
"Meeting the final configuration performance as required in the extreme conditions that this customer operates (in) is important," he said in an email. "We do not consider weight as a big issue."
He added that the company will achieve the requirement by decreasing the aircraft's weight and improving the engine's power capabilities and transmission.
Lianne LeBel, a spokeswoman for the Defence Department, said the final helicopter will have "an enhanced version" of the engine as designed in the original Cyclone.
That engine will be designed to lift the 13,185 kilograms the helicopter is expected to weigh by 2012, she said.
The government has said the new engines and other changes will add $117 million to the $5-billion cost.
-- The Canadian Press
Will it all end in tears or will the the Canadian government continue to lap up Sikorsky's excuses?
And they turned down the 101
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Variable Load said, "How unreasonable, given the fantastic service and availability the Cormorant (EH101) is giving in Canada at the moment."
??? What have you heard about recent service and availability of the Cormorant fleet?
??? What have you heard about recent service and availability of the Cormorant fleet?
Nothing specific, just what's out in the public domain. There were a number of news articles recently about lack of availability, etc.
Here's one news extract from early June:
Cheers
VL
Here's one news extract from early June:
Only half of the surveillance aircraft and rescue helicopters designated to guard Canada's coastlines are able to report for duty on any given day, newly released figures show.
And that poor availability rate has defence critics wondering how the country would cope with a major disaster.
Figures presented to the Senate security and defence committee show the air force is able to muster only nine of its 20 CP-140 [the fleet eventually will be reduced to 10] aging maritime patrol aircraft on any given day for surveillance of the country's three coastlines [two are now in Afstan--another pressure on the CF from the mission].
And just seven of the 14 CH-149 Cormorant search-and-rescue helicopters, purchased just a few years ago, can be called upon for duty.
Figures for the antique CH-124 Sea Kings are even worse: a mere 10 out of 28 aircraft can be spooled up for operations aboard Canadian warships, senior defence officials told the committee.
A defence analyst said it's clear the age of the air force fleet is catching up with the military as elderly aircraft spend more time in the shop and less time on the flight line.
Rob Huebert of the University of Calgary also said it's a condemnation of the convoluted, dysfunctional procurement systems that have sidetracked or delayed replacement planes and helicopters.
The air force has become a "thin blue line" despite the billions of dollars spent recently on new heavy-lift transports and battlefield helicopters, Huebert said in an interview.
A senior air commander said late Tuesday the availability of aircraft is "always of concern" but the service is managing.
And that poor availability rate has defence critics wondering how the country would cope with a major disaster.
Figures presented to the Senate security and defence committee show the air force is able to muster only nine of its 20 CP-140 [the fleet eventually will be reduced to 10] aging maritime patrol aircraft on any given day for surveillance of the country's three coastlines [two are now in Afstan--another pressure on the CF from the mission].
And just seven of the 14 CH-149 Cormorant search-and-rescue helicopters, purchased just a few years ago, can be called upon for duty.
Figures for the antique CH-124 Sea Kings are even worse: a mere 10 out of 28 aircraft can be spooled up for operations aboard Canadian warships, senior defence officials told the committee.
A defence analyst said it's clear the age of the air force fleet is catching up with the military as elderly aircraft spend more time in the shop and less time on the flight line.
Rob Huebert of the University of Calgary also said it's a condemnation of the convoluted, dysfunctional procurement systems that have sidetracked or delayed replacement planes and helicopters.
The air force has become a "thin blue line" despite the billions of dollars spent recently on new heavy-lift transports and battlefield helicopters, Huebert said in an interview.
A senior air commander said late Tuesday the availability of aircraft is "always of concern" but the service is managing.
Cheers
VL
Not sure where you got that from, VL, but I'd be looking for a new source. That clip is full of error and half-truths. Try some of the official sites.
Prior to the arrival of 15 CH-149 Cormorants, the Canadian’s operated a fleet of 12 CH-113/113A Labrador/Voyager’s in the SAR role. I believe that the Canadian’s were hoping for a 75% readiness rate for the their SAR platforms, but in June of this year, availability rates reported to the Senate Security and Defence Committee reached a meagre 50%.
Last December, the findings of a report into poor availability of the Cormorant fleet suggested that in order to meet the target range at all four SAR bases and assuming an ideal access to spares, a fleet of 25 aircraft would be required.
Availability of planes, helicopters worries defence watchers - Yahoo! Canada News
Do you note a common thread here?