R44 - Governor Goes mental
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Oh, and I should have pointed out that the mags were overhauled at a major facility that does hundreds of these, lest anybody thinks I was putting dispersions on the fantastic engineering staff at the place I was working for at the time. (Forget buying the chief pilot a beer, use your minimal wage on keeping the engineers happy, they will keep you happy) And yes, it was an afternoon to keep me entertained. Trying to explain what had happened to a couple of foreign language people who did not understand much english was a very amusing exercise. To this day I think they still think that I turned the engine off deliberatley. 
Where I was at the time also had a lot of issues with the new Stainless blades, as has been talke about in other threads. I was lucky enough to get out of flying 44's before these came in. Not much chop for bush work, one small twig and there it goes.... you can see the money roll past the bosses eyes. Much thinner and much less tolerance for any damage.
Anyway.. thats well off topic.. sorry.... not much else to do up here at the moment.. too hot for most people.
chop
Where I was at the time also had a lot of issues with the new Stainless blades, as has been talke about in other threads. I was lucky enough to get out of flying 44's before these came in. Not much chop for bush work, one small twig and there it goes.... you can see the money roll past the bosses eyes. Much thinner and much less tolerance for any damage.
Anyway.. thats well off topic.. sorry.... not much else to do up here at the moment.. too hot for most people.
chop
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Weeel ladies and gents... the aircraft is back on line and sure enough it was a right mag problem.
The oil seal between the back of the engine and the right mag had cracked and allowed oil into the mag which had pooled and "drowned" the sensor giving eroneous readings to the governor (which then tried to open the throttle wide when we were already at 102% engine rpm).
All fixed and thanks very much to all who helped point us in the right direction
The oil seal between the back of the engine and the right mag had cracked and allowed oil into the mag which had pooled and "drowned" the sensor giving eroneous readings to the governor (which then tried to open the throttle wide when we were already at 102% engine rpm).
All fixed and thanks very much to all who helped point us in the right direction
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Helifixer; or is that Reverend Helifixer?
Are you always so parsimonious? Looking for advice on PPrune is incredibly worth while. 
I recently was advised (thanks to Eric Ferret) what was wrong with the Hiller I had been flying in 1981, when it tried to kill me on 3 occasions.
CASA couldnt help, none of the heli LAMEs in Bankstown could help, and my boss sacked me for talking to CASA! Even Ray Prouty could not come up with an idea.
Read more; scold less. And have a nice day...
thekite
I recently was advised (thanks to Eric Ferret) what was wrong with the Hiller I had been flying in 1981, when it tried to kill me on 3 occasions.
CASA couldnt help, none of the heli LAMEs in Bankstown could help, and my boss sacked me for talking to CASA! Even Ray Prouty could not come up with an idea.
Read more; scold less. And have a nice day...
thekite
Join Date: Feb 2005
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Hey Kite
you haven't bin checking your PM's.
also;-
Maybe you weren't carrying your bible like your boss was reputed to?????
That's if it is the Hiller outfit that i'm thinking of.
cheers tet
you haven't bin checking your PM's.
also;-
the Hiller I had been flying in 1981, when it tried to kill me on 3 occasions.
CASA couldnt help, none of the heli LAMEs in Bankstown could help, and my boss sacked me for talking to
CASA couldnt help, none of the heli LAMEs in Bankstown could help, and my boss sacked me for talking to
That's if it is the Hiller outfit that i'm thinking of.
cheers tet
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quote:
also;-
Quote:
the Hiller I had been flying in 1981, when it tried to kill me on 3 occasions.
CASA couldnt help, none of the heli LAMEs in Bankstown could help, and my boss sacked me for talking to....
Maybe you weren't carrying your bible like your boss was reputed to?????
That's if it is the Hiller outfit that i'm thinking of.
You got to be kidding!!
The bible is/was a basic outfit for the HIller??
Well, then you really don't need a POH anymore.
Just a pair of legs, ...to run fast! ....as far away from the beast as possible!
3top
also;-
Quote:
the Hiller I had been flying in 1981, when it tried to kill me on 3 occasions.
CASA couldnt help, none of the heli LAMEs in Bankstown could help, and my boss sacked me for talking to....
Maybe you weren't carrying your bible like your boss was reputed to?????
That's if it is the Hiller outfit that i'm thinking of.
You got to be kidding!!
The bible is/was a basic outfit for the HIller??
Well, then you really don't need a POH anymore.
Just a pair of legs, ...to run fast! ....as far away from the beast as possible!
3top
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Yip, had the same thing happen in a R44 Raven 1 a few years ago. After initial rev runaway, the governor continued hunting, and I turned it off and flew RPM manually back to base. All OK in cruise but not nice once you start changing power settings and trying to control RPM in the hover. I was spoilt by never having the opportunity to fly anything other than machines with governors, probably old news to the more senior pilots out there, so once that governor is gone, it is sorely missed. Turned out to be the governor control unit itself. From then on, no assumptions, check the needles as they go up, as in a turbine start.
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Seriously, it is an event that has happened often enough and as shown in the thread there is no redundancy, except for the bible.
Therefore the redundancy package MUST BE:
THAT PILOTS WHO LEARN ON SUCH MACHINES ARE TAUGHT TO HANDLE SUCH MACHINES WHEN THE BLESSED THING FAILS.
It's only a small ask, and no I am not shouting, just stating the bleeding obvious.
If pilots have to take up to 105 hours to get a CHPL surely this can done during the routine to break the boredom, instead of us guys at the coal face having to spend money insuring our machines safety with extra training.
Therefore the redundancy package MUST BE:
THAT PILOTS WHO LEARN ON SUCH MACHINES ARE TAUGHT TO HANDLE SUCH MACHINES WHEN THE BLESSED THING FAILS.
It's only a small ask, and no I am not shouting, just stating the bleeding obvious.
If pilots have to take up to 105 hours to get a CHPL surely this can done during the routine to break the boredom, instead of us guys at the coal face having to spend money insuring our machines safety with extra training.
Manual RPM control
Funny you should mention being taught manual rpm control.
I only ever done one mini circuit with the govenor off during my instruction to simulate a govenor failure. However, on my PPL flight test as we left our confined area to fly back to the airfield my examiner switched off the govenor and announced 'govenor failure'. Initially I didn't find this too bad, straight and level, then decending back past the tower towards the hangar starting to get busy keeping the needles in the green. Then this is what he made me do, all with the govenor off:-
I reckon I sweated more in those few minutes than I'd ever done in all of my flying.
Thankfully I passed, but what a lesson that was.
Cheers ET
I only ever done one mini circuit with the govenor off during my instruction to simulate a govenor failure. However, on my PPL flight test as we left our confined area to fly back to the airfield my examiner switched off the govenor and announced 'govenor failure'. Initially I didn't find this too bad, straight and level, then decending back past the tower towards the hangar starting to get busy keeping the needles in the green. Then this is what he made me do, all with the govenor off:-
- Come to a 3 foot hover in front of the hangar
- Maintain a 3 foot hover while reducing throttle and therefore RRPM to 90% without decending and without pulling more than 24 inches
- Sit there at a 3foot hover with the RRPM horn blaring away in my ear for what felt like forever, but was probably only 10 seconds
- Bring the RRPM back up to the green without decending and without pulling more than 24 inches
I reckon I sweated more in those few minutes than I'd ever done in all of my flying.
Thankfully I passed, but what a lesson that was.
Cheers ET
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Evil Twin
I think you should solemnly thank your examiner for suiting you to the improbable in later life. not only in robinsons do you have the problem of governor control failing; there have been a few threads on B206 fuel control units in the same vein. and other threads testify to similar problems on more complex machinery, all of which would be much easier handled by a pilot that was exposed as you were if not much more to your redundancy training.
My point is that we seem to be accumulatiung a long list of skills that newbie pilots are NOT trained in.
Like; the above; like not recoginsing VRS and how to recover from it; like not being able to safely establish hover OGE well away from fixed visual cues in VMC; like not being able to land the machine when both fuel tanks or only the one fuel tank was filled with defect fuel and the engine /engines later quit; The list goes on.
where are we going with all this? certainly to a head first credibility crash as number one. I.E. destroying the image of the helicopter as a good vehicle in the public's eyes.
I believe that the OZ training establishments received a brand new training manual recently. It would be interesting to hear if any of regular instructors could tell us that I am wrong.
tet
I think you should solemnly thank your examiner for suiting you to the improbable in later life. not only in robinsons do you have the problem of governor control failing; there have been a few threads on B206 fuel control units in the same vein. and other threads testify to similar problems on more complex machinery, all of which would be much easier handled by a pilot that was exposed as you were if not much more to your redundancy training.
My point is that we seem to be accumulatiung a long list of skills that newbie pilots are NOT trained in.
Like; the above; like not recoginsing VRS and how to recover from it; like not being able to safely establish hover OGE well away from fixed visual cues in VMC; like not being able to land the machine when both fuel tanks or only the one fuel tank was filled with defect fuel and the engine /engines later quit; The list goes on.
where are we going with all this? certainly to a head first credibility crash as number one. I.E. destroying the image of the helicopter as a good vehicle in the public's eyes.
I believe that the OZ training establishments received a brand new training manual recently. It would be interesting to hear if any of regular instructors could tell us that I am wrong.
tet
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R44 II - Rough running / Governor?
Looking at some previous points raised on here I can see Im in the right place.
We have an R44 II (Raven) that has developed a problem, i will detail a bit of background first to give 'a bigger picture'
The ship had an over-speed and as a result the engine was removed and the relevant inspection and rectification was carried out. The aircraft was returned to service with both engineers and pilots 'happy' that the ship was serviceable.
The ship has since flown approx 15hrs and has developed a problem. On the first application of power into the 'governor range' 80-102% (not on start up) but regardless of if the governor is on or off we have 'rough running' at 90-95% power and the engine 'hangs' with some harsh vibration. A second later it will clear very harshly causing the ship to yaw and accelerate and try to over speed. This happens the majority of the time but not every time and does not occur in normal flight the problem does not occur unless the engine RPM is dropped below 80% and then bought back in again for example during auto-rotation checks and again the recovery tries to put the ship into an over-speed situation.
It only occurs during this specific and small band of the power range and also the rough running does not sound like a tappet or sticking valve, it sounds more like a rev limiter on a car to use crude terminology.
We have an R44 II (Raven) that has developed a problem, i will detail a bit of background first to give 'a bigger picture'
The ship had an over-speed and as a result the engine was removed and the relevant inspection and rectification was carried out. The aircraft was returned to service with both engineers and pilots 'happy' that the ship was serviceable.
The ship has since flown approx 15hrs and has developed a problem. On the first application of power into the 'governor range' 80-102% (not on start up) but regardless of if the governor is on or off we have 'rough running' at 90-95% power and the engine 'hangs' with some harsh vibration. A second later it will clear very harshly causing the ship to yaw and accelerate and try to over speed. This happens the majority of the time but not every time and does not occur in normal flight the problem does not occur unless the engine RPM is dropped below 80% and then bought back in again for example during auto-rotation checks and again the recovery tries to put the ship into an over-speed situation.
It only occurs during this specific and small band of the power range and also the rough running does not sound like a tappet or sticking valve, it sounds more like a rev limiter on a car to use crude terminology.
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Points problem
I had a similar problem when the engine tach points failed, the machine was nearly unflyable with the governor on. Had to switch off the governor and fly manually which turned out to be a good exercise anyway.
I would be checking the points first up, cheap fix as well.
I would be checking the points first up, cheap fix as well.
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Hey guys, thanks for the input.
Have just had loan (overhauled) serviceable mags fitted and the problem is still there, it makes no difference if the governor is switched on or off. Are now thinking of looking at fuel servo or flow divider!
Just to add also that ship during normal flight is fine, when the engine RPM is dropped below 80% the fault occurs again, you can imagine what that was like recovering from an auto-rotation! So the fault is only there during that narrow power band between 80-95%.
Have just had loan (overhauled) serviceable mags fitted and the problem is still there, it makes no difference if the governor is switched on or off. Are now thinking of looking at fuel servo or flow divider!
Just to add also that ship during normal flight is fine, when the engine RPM is dropped below 80% the fault occurs again, you can imagine what that was like recovering from an auto-rotation! So the fault is only there during that narrow power band between 80-95%.
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Update
Just had the Fuel Injection Servo inspected and tested, no fault was found. We have a loan unit coming just to make sure though, inspected the nozzles and they were fine. Anymore thoughts?