FAA Helicopter training in UK?
Gents (& Ladies)
Whilst I can see the point of the argument of not wanting medically unfit pilots flying around.
The rules as they stand allow an FAA licenced pilot to fly in the uk, if someone can obtain an FAA licence and jump through the FAAs hoops to obtain it, why should they not pursue that if they cannot obtain a JAA medical. Surely if the object is to stop such people flying in the UK then all FAA licence holders should be stopped as they have not met a UK or JAA standard for something (I am not for a moment suggesting that this is the solution merely offering it is an argument).
I know of a couple of pilots who could not obtain UK JAA medicals and went elsewhere in europe to obtain their [insert name of country Gary can't remember] JAA medicals (so much for a european standard). These guys are very competent CPL and ATPL holders who would not have been able to pass a JAA/UK Class 1 initial issue medical at Gatwick.
Kit as regards to US v UK standards my experience which is probably not as vast as yours with regards to checking (meant truthfully not sarcastically even if it reads that way) is that there is a big terminology gap , and perhaps an emphasis on different parts of the syllabus(es), handling is emphasised in the US, theory in the UK, and a lot of pilots expect to get away with engine failures safely at lower levels than perhaps they would, but the competency when these things are discussed or allowed for on both sides are not too different.
Just my thoughts
Gary
Whilst I can see the point of the argument of not wanting medically unfit pilots flying around.
The rules as they stand allow an FAA licenced pilot to fly in the uk, if someone can obtain an FAA licence and jump through the FAAs hoops to obtain it, why should they not pursue that if they cannot obtain a JAA medical. Surely if the object is to stop such people flying in the UK then all FAA licence holders should be stopped as they have not met a UK or JAA standard for something (I am not for a moment suggesting that this is the solution merely offering it is an argument).
I know of a couple of pilots who could not obtain UK JAA medicals and went elsewhere in europe to obtain their [insert name of country Gary can't remember] JAA medicals (so much for a european standard). These guys are very competent CPL and ATPL holders who would not have been able to pass a JAA/UK Class 1 initial issue medical at Gatwick.
Kit as regards to US v UK standards my experience which is probably not as vast as yours with regards to checking (meant truthfully not sarcastically even if it reads that way) is that there is a big terminology gap , and perhaps an emphasis on different parts of the syllabus(es), handling is emphasised in the US, theory in the UK, and a lot of pilots expect to get away with engine failures safely at lower levels than perhaps they would, but the competency when these things are discussed or allowed for on both sides are not too different.
Just my thoughts
Gary
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VeeAny,
You might want to find a professional seafarer (or, indeed, big plank driver), ask him about flagging out, and wonder how you'll pay for next month's food, mortgage, etc...
You might want to find a professional seafarer (or, indeed, big plank driver), ask him about flagging out, and wonder how you'll pay for next month's food, mortgage, etc...
Kit
I am sorry but as was probably the plan, you've completely lost me there !
[Edited to Add]
Since found out what flagging out is, and see what you are getting at, but surely the reduction in safety standard could only be proven if comparative stats of uk and [name any another states(s)] accident rates could be compared. I do have an interest in this stuff and I PROBABLY have more accident data than most others, and with what I have I doubt a FAIR comparison could be made.
Still don't understand the mortgage ref (but I am tired and my brain is not as quick as it was).
How does anyone suggest we 'Police' an FAA licence holder who has an FAA medical, but no JAA one and might not pass one coz he's never been JAA'd (or vice versa).
Should we all be tested to the standards required by the states we fly over ?
I do however support crossover training for licence holders who fly around in someone elses airspace, not that what I think matters in the global scheme of things.
GS
I am sorry but as was probably the plan, you've completely lost me there !
[Edited to Add]
Since found out what flagging out is, and see what you are getting at, but surely the reduction in safety standard could only be proven if comparative stats of uk and [name any another states(s)] accident rates could be compared. I do have an interest in this stuff and I PROBABLY have more accident data than most others, and with what I have I doubt a FAIR comparison could be made.
Still don't understand the mortgage ref (but I am tired and my brain is not as quick as it was).
How does anyone suggest we 'Police' an FAA licence holder who has an FAA medical, but no JAA one and might not pass one coz he's never been JAA'd (or vice versa).
Should we all be tested to the standards required by the states we fly over ?
I do however support crossover training for licence holders who fly around in someone elses airspace, not that what I think matters in the global scheme of things.
GS
Last edited by VeeAny; 26th Sep 2007 at 20:49.
Hovering AND talking
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Just for your information Kit, I hold a full UK JAA PPL(H) with a Class 1 medical initially obtained at Gatwick and renewed several times by an AME local to me. Some gentlemen pilots on here might also describe me as fit.
I have sat 6 of 9 CPL exams and passed all with an average of 92%. I also have a degree in Nuclear Physics and am a Chartered Accountant. If you'd been FA to read my profile before shooting your mouth off, you'd have known in which country I obtained my licence.
The more I go through the JAA system, the more I realise what a loads of old bolleaux it is. Most medical failures are due to eyesight. For example, the CAA won;t accept anyone who's had laser surgery on their eye. Why? They might; they're currently doing research on it at the moment. Perhaps the US are ahead of the UK in this aspect?
We none of us know why the original poster failed his medical (and neither should we); the point is, I do not believe that there are more accidents in the USA caused by ill health of the pilot than there are in the UK.
Cheers
Whirls
I can jump through hoops, that's all.
I have sat 6 of 9 CPL exams and passed all with an average of 92%. I also have a degree in Nuclear Physics and am a Chartered Accountant. If you'd been FA to read my profile before shooting your mouth off, you'd have known in which country I obtained my licence.
The more I go through the JAA system, the more I realise what a loads of old bolleaux it is. Most medical failures are due to eyesight. For example, the CAA won;t accept anyone who's had laser surgery on their eye. Why? They might; they're currently doing research on it at the moment. Perhaps the US are ahead of the UK in this aspect?
We none of us know why the original poster failed his medical (and neither should we); the point is, I do not believe that there are more accidents in the USA caused by ill health of the pilot than there are in the UK.
Cheers
Whirls
I can jump through hoops, that's all.
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Whirls (Wow, you see, I do learn!), if you don't like the colour of the balls, you don't have to play the game...
A full PPL, eh?
Rather than an empty one, I presume? What bollox!
So, well done for reaching the bottom rung of the ladder! I can (just) remember how it felt!
And, you've sat some of the CPL exams... Well, again, congratulations...
Please, carry on, you're clearly a sky god yourself!
VeeAny, good luck!
A full PPL, eh?
Rather than an empty one, I presume? What bollox!
So, well done for reaching the bottom rung of the ladder! I can (just) remember how it felt!
And, you've sat some of the CPL exams... Well, again, congratulations...
Please, carry on, you're clearly a sky god yourself!
VeeAny, good luck!
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I doubt a FAIR comparison could be made
...and that's why the accountants win, the standards drop, the wages are lowered, and the flagged-out carriers, whether air- or sea-borne, win the day.
The profession, both plank and whirly, is going to hell in a hand-cart, and yet you all want to fight for the folk who are making it acceptable...
Genuinely, unbelievable.
Fortunately, I've sorted myself out with a great deal, and shall be making hay for many summers more...
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What ?????? Oh yes, of course, it IS a full moon!
All most posters are doing, is trying to give some advice to chap who has, medically, fallen between the US and UK system. And Kit, you're pontificating about the global future of helicopter pilots?
You may well have been able to fly from before I born but .... have you grown up since?
Please answer my question about the statistics relating to the causes of air accidents in the US and UK with regards to pilots' health. Or, hey!, let's go for it ... age!!!
Cheers
Whirls
All most posters are doing, is trying to give some advice to chap who has, medically, fallen between the US and UK system. And Kit, you're pontificating about the global future of helicopter pilots?
You may well have been able to fly from before I born but .... have you grown up since?
Please answer my question about the statistics relating to the causes of air accidents in the US and UK with regards to pilots' health. Or, hey!, let's go for it ... age!!!
Cheers
Whirls
Kit
We seem to be taking this thread away from its original purpose, and if the mods feel appropriate maybe it should be split.
I am genuinely interested as to why you think what you do specifically the ' hell in a hand cart comment'
My interest is flight safety based, perhaps with a real world slant (but only my real world).
I am a BIG proponent of keeping things safe, so I hope you will answer my question in as much detail as you see fit. Not so I can argue the toss with you or to prove a point, but to see where you are coming from.
Also you mention checking Pilots, but your profile doesn't really tell us what you do. If YOU think it appropriate can you tell us a bit more about what you do and your history, If you don't feel it appropriate or you think it'll give your id away fair enough, I ask just out of interest.
GS
Sorry everyone if this is keeping two subjects in one thread Iam just interested in the subject.
We seem to be taking this thread away from its original purpose, and if the mods feel appropriate maybe it should be split.
I am genuinely interested as to why you think what you do specifically the ' hell in a hand cart comment'
My interest is flight safety based, perhaps with a real world slant (but only my real world).
I am a BIG proponent of keeping things safe, so I hope you will answer my question in as much detail as you see fit. Not so I can argue the toss with you or to prove a point, but to see where you are coming from.
Also you mention checking Pilots, but your profile doesn't really tell us what you do. If YOU think it appropriate can you tell us a bit more about what you do and your history, If you don't feel it appropriate or you think it'll give your id away fair enough, I ask just out of interest.
GS
Sorry everyone if this is keeping two subjects in one thread Iam just interested in the subject.
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Back to the thread
Surely a medical passed is a medical passed, especially in what is now an extremely aviation safety conscious country ?
For those who disagree...are you going to tell me that we need to turn the majority of public air transport (routing from the states) around because they have a FAA and not a JAR medical ?
For those who disagree...are you going to tell me that we need to turn the majority of public air transport (routing from the states) around because they have a FAA and not a JAR medical ?
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Kit d'Erection or whatever. You're appararanly on some kind of wrong medication at the moment. It seems you have a lot of grief. Discrimination is against the law!
Whirls, if you are that clever, why you flying helicopters? You got a screw loose or something? 
LOL
Anyway, lets just take this a step further. What if someone couldn't pass the JAR licence but had an FAA licence and planned on using it only in UK. They also had American CPL and use of an N-reg a/c. Would it be alright to let them fly people about for money in the UK? Where would we draw the line?
LOLAnyway, lets just take this a step further. What if someone couldn't pass the JAR licence but had an FAA licence and planned on using it only in UK. They also had American CPL and use of an N-reg a/c. Would it be alright to let them fly people about for money in the UK? Where would we draw the line?
Anyway, lets just take this a step further. What if someone couldn't pass the JAR licence but had an FAA licence and planned on using it only in UK. They also had American CPL and use of an N-reg a/c. Would it be alright to let them fly people about for money in the UK? Where would we draw the line?
Are you talking about AOC/public transport work, helimutt? Or 'corporate'/private work? Because, as you are well aware, there is plenty of N-reg corporate work with FAA licences going on in this country.
Is this 'alright' though? Well, it's technically not against the rules. But the DofT tried to phase it out recently and only seemed to manage to trip themselves up over the issue so had to drop it.
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VeeAny,
I'd have liked to have taken a lot longer writing the following, so apologies if it's not as cogent as you'd like...
First, I'm sorry that I'm not going to be more specific about what I do, as it would certainly allow some folk to identify me, and whilst we're in a forum where it is acceptable to remain anonymous, I'd rather do so. However, you may rest assured that, whilst I'm not going to start listing qualifications etc, I'm in a job in which it's essential to know what I'm talking about. If I didn't, I wouldn't be here.
Secondly, to tackle your very valid question about 'hell in a handcart'...
This is happening much more slowly in aviation that it has in the marine world. The central problem is, funnily enough, that we've got a system that is too 'safe'. If you fly a western-built aircraft in Europe, and you meet someone's minimum standards, then you've gone 99% of the way to an accident-free operation - and going that last hundredth of the way could be very expensive indeed. The drive for economic growth, and the general belief that de-regulation provides a fertile market for optimising efficiency (in the economists' sense of the word - be careful if you don't know what I mean by that), combines with this former factor to produce the aviation world we see around us, at least, here in Europe. It's certainly at work behind the fact that it's very rare to see a UK-flagged merchant vessel in many places, when we used to rule the waves.
If you don't think this is happening, then, without banging on about these matters too much, I'll pick two quick examples of what I'm talking about. Both examples relate to the big plank world, as it's easier to talk about what's going on there, but the same thing is happening, much more slowly, in the world of the angry palm tree. Some people will like the first one quite a lot, others will find it hackneyed:
Years ago, people were selected for pilot training by airlines, on the grounds of their suitability as assessed by various means, and then paid a wage whilst they were trained as pilots. The training maximised knowledge and ability, and cost was a secondary factor, in the drive to improve a (then) unacceptable safety record. Now, the majority are selected by their ability and willingness to pay, and pilot training, instead of a business cost justified by the need for high quality crews, has become an income stream (market factors are significant here, too, but let's leave them to one side). To counter any 'quality' offset this produces, pilots operate in a more 'regulated' environment, do less 'flying', and make fewer decisions - which enables a lower minimum standard of competence in the flight deck. It also makes life for the most competent, rather boring.
Secondly, for decades, certain States, notably the UK, have imposed regulations more stringent than those imposed elsewhere. Of course, stringent regulation costs money, and offers advantage to otherwise-regulated operators. This is partly why one major UK airline has lots of aeroplanes based at UK airports with registrations beginning EI-. The whole industry is now operating against any endeavour to improve things on a 'local' (State) basis, as witness the Boeing operators who are currently moving to Boeing's own procedures, and thus doing away with decades of 'improvement' drawn out through, for example, the CAA's Flight Ops Inspectorate. They are getting rid of methods which have been improved upon time and time again, and replacing them with lowest common denominator methods, derived without the benefit of experience, often to enable operation on more than one type of aircraft - a practice which, only a few years ago, was deemed insufficiently safe for scheduled public transport operations with large aircraft, but is now in vogue, because... It costs less money.
Fundamentally, to see where I'm coming from, you need to understand the economics at work behind air safety. Hardly anyone involved in the business does.
Oh, and HillerBee, where was I being discriminatory? I originally asked a question which reflected the possibility that we were seeing the FAA-licensed folk here all ganging up together... Then when Whirls decided to, in the vernacular, 'big herself up' on the grounds of a PPL and a few commercial papers, I thought she was fair game for a bit of a reality check.
I'd have liked to have taken a lot longer writing the following, so apologies if it's not as cogent as you'd like...
First, I'm sorry that I'm not going to be more specific about what I do, as it would certainly allow some folk to identify me, and whilst we're in a forum where it is acceptable to remain anonymous, I'd rather do so. However, you may rest assured that, whilst I'm not going to start listing qualifications etc, I'm in a job in which it's essential to know what I'm talking about. If I didn't, I wouldn't be here.
Secondly, to tackle your very valid question about 'hell in a handcart'...
This is happening much more slowly in aviation that it has in the marine world. The central problem is, funnily enough, that we've got a system that is too 'safe'. If you fly a western-built aircraft in Europe, and you meet someone's minimum standards, then you've gone 99% of the way to an accident-free operation - and going that last hundredth of the way could be very expensive indeed. The drive for economic growth, and the general belief that de-regulation provides a fertile market for optimising efficiency (in the economists' sense of the word - be careful if you don't know what I mean by that), combines with this former factor to produce the aviation world we see around us, at least, here in Europe. It's certainly at work behind the fact that it's very rare to see a UK-flagged merchant vessel in many places, when we used to rule the waves.
If you don't think this is happening, then, without banging on about these matters too much, I'll pick two quick examples of what I'm talking about. Both examples relate to the big plank world, as it's easier to talk about what's going on there, but the same thing is happening, much more slowly, in the world of the angry palm tree. Some people will like the first one quite a lot, others will find it hackneyed:
Years ago, people were selected for pilot training by airlines, on the grounds of their suitability as assessed by various means, and then paid a wage whilst they were trained as pilots. The training maximised knowledge and ability, and cost was a secondary factor, in the drive to improve a (then) unacceptable safety record. Now, the majority are selected by their ability and willingness to pay, and pilot training, instead of a business cost justified by the need for high quality crews, has become an income stream (market factors are significant here, too, but let's leave them to one side). To counter any 'quality' offset this produces, pilots operate in a more 'regulated' environment, do less 'flying', and make fewer decisions - which enables a lower minimum standard of competence in the flight deck. It also makes life for the most competent, rather boring.
Secondly, for decades, certain States, notably the UK, have imposed regulations more stringent than those imposed elsewhere. Of course, stringent regulation costs money, and offers advantage to otherwise-regulated operators. This is partly why one major UK airline has lots of aeroplanes based at UK airports with registrations beginning EI-. The whole industry is now operating against any endeavour to improve things on a 'local' (State) basis, as witness the Boeing operators who are currently moving to Boeing's own procedures, and thus doing away with decades of 'improvement' drawn out through, for example, the CAA's Flight Ops Inspectorate. They are getting rid of methods which have been improved upon time and time again, and replacing them with lowest common denominator methods, derived without the benefit of experience, often to enable operation on more than one type of aircraft - a practice which, only a few years ago, was deemed insufficiently safe for scheduled public transport operations with large aircraft, but is now in vogue, because... It costs less money.
Fundamentally, to see where I'm coming from, you need to understand the economics at work behind air safety. Hardly anyone involved in the business does.
Oh, and HillerBee, where was I being discriminatory? I originally asked a question which reflected the possibility that we were seeing the FAA-licensed folk here all ganging up together... Then when Whirls decided to, in the vernacular, 'big herself up' on the grounds of a PPL and a few commercial papers, I thought she was fair game for a bit of a reality check.
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So Unkle Munkle, if you wanted any proof that there are some really jumped-up unhelpful jerks out there who would just love to piss on your parade, then you have it, welcome to UK aviation!
I'm sure you will find somebody to get your license finished and that you will fly just as safely as somebody with a JAA qualification.
SB
I'm sure you will find somebody to get your license finished and that you will fly just as safely as somebody with a JAA qualification.
SB
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Mmmm, I can't find the parade, perhaps you could pass me your address?
And, for my part, I'll just say that the fewer people flying with medical problems, the better, from my own point of view...
And, for my part, I'll just say that the fewer people flying with medical problems, the better, from my own point of view...
Bravo73, you work for one of the most decent operators in the country as far as i'm concerned. Okay, he is expensive!!
But, I bet you don't like to hear of N reg aircraft being operated here under the guise of Private use when we know fine well money is changing hands.
makes you wonder why operators go to the expense of getting/maintaining the AOC at great exoense!
But, I bet you don't like to hear of N reg aircraft being operated here under the guise of Private use when we know fine well money is changing hands.
makes you wonder why operators go to the expense of getting/maintaining the AOC at great exoense!
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I have sat 6 of 9 CPL exams and passed all with an average of 92%. I also have a degree in Nuclear Physics and am a Chartered Accountant
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A thread resurrected after, what, about 6 weeks to do nothing but make a comment about something posted when half the other posts from this thread have been deleted and therefore everything's out of context.
Is there yet another resurrection here?
Cheers
Whirls
Is there yet another resurrection here?
Cheers
Whirls