Age
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Fareastdriver, I couldn't disagree more.
For my sins I've been both a factory worker at a lathe (nightshift) and a helicopter pilot (worldwide operations). The factory was full of people wanting to get out and do something better; none of them thought of retiring.
As for helicopter pilots dreaming of retiring, they must be working particularly lush grass; jobs don't last long enough for long distance planning and pensions are abysmal.
Finally if you have flown helicopters all your life it's likely that you have some affection for the work; to be told by a bean counter (or the left hand seat) that you are to retire usually means that somebody wants your seat. Only if he's better than you and you can no longer pass your base checks do they have this right.
For my sins I've been both a factory worker at a lathe (nightshift) and a helicopter pilot (worldwide operations). The factory was full of people wanting to get out and do something better; none of them thought of retiring.
As for helicopter pilots dreaming of retiring, they must be working particularly lush grass; jobs don't last long enough for long distance planning and pensions are abysmal.
Finally if you have flown helicopters all your life it's likely that you have some affection for the work; to be told by a bean counter (or the left hand seat) that you are to retire usually means that somebody wants your seat. Only if he's better than you and you can no longer pass your base checks do they have this right.
Mr Toad
My post was primarily about unions,with reference to Phone Wind's post referring to IFALPA's objection to raising the retiirement age. We are talking about people in their sixties here and I would suggest that somebody who has been staring at a lathe for forty years wouldn't be looking for another job. In my forty seven years of aviation I have met quite a lot of pilots who tolerate it, don't like it, or are even afraid of it, but it pays the bills. Your post suggests that you do not belong or are protected by a union. A lot of helicopter pilots are and they are on what you describe as lush grass. They have their forward planning sorted out, some will want to pack it in, some will want to carry on. The choice should be up to them but they wont get any help from the union because of the reasons I quoted. This thread is not about jobs, it's about legislation. I have always said that pilots should be able to fly on while they are fit and skillful enough and not be subject to an arbitary age limit imposed by their govenment.
My post was primarily about unions,with reference to Phone Wind's post referring to IFALPA's objection to raising the retiirement age. We are talking about people in their sixties here and I would suggest that somebody who has been staring at a lathe for forty years wouldn't be looking for another job. In my forty seven years of aviation I have met quite a lot of pilots who tolerate it, don't like it, or are even afraid of it, but it pays the bills. Your post suggests that you do not belong or are protected by a union. A lot of helicopter pilots are and they are on what you describe as lush grass. They have their forward planning sorted out, some will want to pack it in, some will want to carry on. The choice should be up to them but they wont get any help from the union because of the reasons I quoted. This thread is not about jobs, it's about legislation. I have always said that pilots should be able to fly on while they are fit and skillful enough and not be subject to an arbitary age limit imposed by their govenment.
Join Date: Jul 1999
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Why are people obsessed with working until they die. GET A LIFE and enjoy it!
Well, I would if I could afford to!
From some of the studies in the excellent opening post it is statistically obvious that in single-pilots ops younger pilots should be grounded at once and only allowed to fly after age 45.
Well, I would if I could afford to!
From some of the studies in the excellent opening post it is statistically obvious that in single-pilots ops younger pilots should be grounded at once and only allowed to fly after age 45.
The Original Whirly
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Why are people obsessed with working until they die. GET A LIFE and enjoy it!
So who are you or anyone else to say I can't do that, so long as I can pass medicals?
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Fareastdriver:
I've been a member of Balpa since 1978.
In that time my union assisted in the sale of my company to somebody considered by the courts as not a fit person to be a director; and who subsequently dived off the end of his yacht with all the group's pension funds in his sticky little hands; needless to say the body was never found nor was the money.
So not only do I like working for a living, but I do it because I have to; and there are many, many more like me out there. And I like what I do; furthermore I do have a life - a very full and interesting one outside flying but not including golf etc...
I've been a member of Balpa since 1978.
In that time my union assisted in the sale of my company to somebody considered by the courts as not a fit person to be a director; and who subsequently dived off the end of his yacht with all the group's pension funds in his sticky little hands; needless to say the body was never found nor was the money.
So not only do I like working for a living, but I do it because I have to; and there are many, many more like me out there. And I like what I do; furthermore I do have a life - a very full and interesting one outside flying but not including golf etc...
Mr Toad
We have a lot in common. My company was sold on, asset stripped, including the pilot's pension fund and then sold on again and again. We may well have known each other in the past. I feel the same way as you about flying and I have had to go to some lengths to be able to continue doing so because of the UK CAA. I just hope that in the future that other pilots getting on in life don't have to go through the same paraphernalia that I had to go through. Should you want to carry on indefinately PM me and I'll give you the gen on a Oz licence.
p.s. I thought they found Maxwell, if they didn't they buried somebody who looked remarkably similar.
We have a lot in common. My company was sold on, asset stripped, including the pilot's pension fund and then sold on again and again. We may well have known each other in the past. I feel the same way as you about flying and I have had to go to some lengths to be able to continue doing so because of the UK CAA. I just hope that in the future that other pilots getting on in life don't have to go through the same paraphernalia that I had to go through. Should you want to carry on indefinately PM me and I'll give you the gen on a Oz licence.
p.s. I thought they found Maxwell, if they didn't they buried somebody who looked remarkably similar.
Last edited by Fareastdriver; 19th Sep 2007 at 04:29.
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Euro Anchor
I agree with Fareastdriver. Balpa acts only in the interests of the majority of it's members and not for the minority; where there is a clear conflict between the interests of the majority (i.e. younger, less experienced pilots) and the minority (older, more experienced) then Balpa's duty is to act for the majority. It is constitutionally incapable of any other course and I cannnot fault the logic.
Despite all this I am still a member and Balpa have been most helpful in helping to arrange a small pension with what remains of that sorry episode. Since Maxwell I have not paid a penny into any company pension scheme, rightly or wrongly preferring to do my own thing.
I agree with Fareastdriver. Balpa acts only in the interests of the majority of it's members and not for the minority; where there is a clear conflict between the interests of the majority (i.e. younger, less experienced pilots) and the minority (older, more experienced) then Balpa's duty is to act for the majority. It is constitutionally incapable of any other course and I cannnot fault the logic.
Despite all this I am still a member and Balpa have been most helpful in helping to arrange a small pension with what remains of that sorry episode. Since Maxwell I have not paid a penny into any company pension scheme, rightly or wrongly preferring to do my own thing.
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So why does not BALPA ask it's many members if they should act on the age thing? After all even the young members will get old one day coupled with the fact that they would be just as interested in flying as long as they are fit after all they are still full of enthusiasm and would not dream about having to stop flying ever.
I accept that to a young person the word pension is difficult to understand when you are just starting out.
I accept that to a young person the word pension is difficult to understand when you are just starting out.
Join Date: Feb 2004
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Maxwell is buried in Jerusalem
Mr Toad,
The body of Ján Ludvík Hoch (remember Maxwell was a Czeckoslovak immigrant and changed his name to Ian Robert Maxwell in 1945) was found in the Atlantic Ocean off the coast of Tenerife on 5 November 1991 and buried in Jerusalem (it was alleged for many years that he was a member of Mossad).
Since then I have never kept my money in any company's pension scheme.
The body of Ján Ludvík Hoch (remember Maxwell was a Czeckoslovak immigrant and changed his name to Ian Robert Maxwell in 1945) was found in the Atlantic Ocean off the coast of Tenerife on 5 November 1991 and buried in Jerusalem (it was alleged for many years that he was a member of Mossad).
Since then I have never kept my money in any company's pension scheme.
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I notice there has not been much acitvityu on this site for some time so hope that I can generate further discussion.
I was interested to read this thread as I was interested in research on managing the aging pilot population. The situation has been generated by the increased retirement age and the slow down in the world economy.
One item of interest is that pilots medicals in many countries do not test for mental aging. i.e. a person can have a different mental and physical age. Also ability in the simulators may not be a good indicaition of decreasing mental function due to the years of practice.
Mental acuity tests could perhaps pick up problems with pilots across all age bands that have issues!! - some people also age faster than others.
If there was a movement to no retirement age - then do we have the correct battery of tests in the medicals to differenciate between who should stay and who should be gently assisted to retire - whatever their age.
Manadatory retirement ages and pension start date ages tend to force people into set limits rather than leaving the options open and addressing the real isues of whether the individual should stay flying.
Cheers
I was interested to read this thread as I was interested in research on managing the aging pilot population. The situation has been generated by the increased retirement age and the slow down in the world economy.
One item of interest is that pilots medicals in many countries do not test for mental aging. i.e. a person can have a different mental and physical age. Also ability in the simulators may not be a good indicaition of decreasing mental function due to the years of practice.
Mental acuity tests could perhaps pick up problems with pilots across all age bands that have issues!! - some people also age faster than others.
If there was a movement to no retirement age - then do we have the correct battery of tests in the medicals to differenciate between who should stay and who should be gently assisted to retire - whatever their age.
Manadatory retirement ages and pension start date ages tend to force people into set limits rather than leaving the options open and addressing the real isues of whether the individual should stay flying.
Cheers
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"Not much activity". Here's some for you.
Readers of the Age Discrimination thread will know that I took the CAA to the Employment Tribunal a year ago alleging age discrimination in their policy of denying puiblic transport flying rights to sinle pilots over 60.
I lost and appealed. The appeal is due to be heard on 17/18 March. The real news is that the Equality and Human Rights Commisssion have picked up my case and will represent me at the appeal hearing.
Quite apart from the huge benefit that professional legal representation will bring to the hearing the fact that the Commission has recognised that this is a matter of our right to continue to live our lives as we would wish is hugely encouraging to me. While I don't dispute that money is important I brought this case to court on principle and seem to have been vindicated regardless of the outcome.
Ian E
Readers of the Age Discrimination thread will know that I took the CAA to the Employment Tribunal a year ago alleging age discrimination in their policy of denying puiblic transport flying rights to sinle pilots over 60.
I lost and appealed. The appeal is due to be heard on 17/18 March. The real news is that the Equality and Human Rights Commisssion have picked up my case and will represent me at the appeal hearing.
Quite apart from the huge benefit that professional legal representation will bring to the hearing the fact that the Commission has recognised that this is a matter of our right to continue to live our lives as we would wish is hugely encouraging to me. While I don't dispute that money is important I brought this case to court on principle and seem to have been vindicated regardless of the outcome.
Ian E
