Age

[topendtorque]

Now, what were the words of that 60's hit song?

"will you still need me,
will you still feed me,
when I'm 64?"

I do hope that the two Whirlys' will feel inclined to humour us old geriatrics in that regard when we get there. Which of course will be well before them.

Me, I just hope that I can still take a "pleasure" or two at that ripe old age, meantime, keep on trucking.
tet

[psyan]

Whirls tapped away writing: "maybe you were another who was going fishing - I had already spotted that Max Chat was; not too sure about you Psyan!!!!"

I have never been much good at fishing, baiting the line perhaps.

There is a difference in the work you describe and that of carrying large numbers of passengers either in a lump or short hop.

I rather think that since you do not see the point, there is little mileage in going any further with this.

"If you're 56, why don't you retire now? Is it because your pension isn't enough. "

I have no financial problems. My decision to retire is orientated around other issues none of which are anything to do with flying.

"That is certainly the case with some pilots and not necessarily through any fault of their own"

Oh JHFC whose fault is it then? I have a brilliant pension but I suppose that was nothing to do with me then was it?


"and therefore need to continue working. Why shouldn't they be allowed to if they can?"

Oh dear........because current legislation says no.

Best Wishes

[Whirlygig]

I rather think that since you do not see the point, there is little mileage in going any further with this

Quite Although I'm not sure who is not seeing who's point.

Why the ?

Cheers

Whirls

[check]

Psyan, you are right as much as I enjoy a cup of tea I do like a little friendly discussion. Were would PPRUNE be without it?

"I agree but providing that in doing so you do not affect others rights."

I'm not sure that I understand this statement in the present context as how being able to or wish to work longer affect anyone's rights.

Once again you are right, we are all permitted our own opinions, it's just that some of us are unable to put them forward without causing offence. Then the fish bite!

I have no axe to grind on the subject, I'm an old fart now but am happy to be a part of a two crew operation. My first 8000 hours were single pilot and I was happy with my own company, the next 9000 hours and growing have also been great by having the company of a second pilot. At 65 I'll stop because I have to not because I want to, and while I will be sad it won't be the end of the world, I've the second half of my life to live. Dread to think what my wife will say having me home all day though!!

[psyan]

Check quietly pounded away stating thus: " Psyan, you are right as much as I enjoy a cup of tea I do like a little friendly discussion. Were would PPRUNE be without it?"

Quite.

["I agree but providing that in doing so you do not affect others rights."]

"I'm not sure that I understand this statement in the present context as how being able to or wish to work longer affect anyone's rights."

My phrasing means simply that the desires of some to continue flying is fine provided that there is NO risk as a consequence of age related issues, to those that have a right to the best standards available and that can be legislated for. Because that is what the customer wants. If you are an old fart but can still make the medical grade fine. There is however an increased risk as a consequence of age its a fact of life. That risk should not be ignored simply because a few are late starters and haven't had their fill just yet or out of some sense of 'but it aint fair' [stamp of feet petulantly]. To increase age without stringent checks is to increase risk. Even then, there is no fool proof method of defining possible sudden incapacitation as a consequence of age. Therefore a limit is imposed on age on the assumption that up to that point the circumstances are manageable. It's a slippery slope and there are many at the top looking down with regret and absolutely no chance in hell of avoiding the journey.

Already there a movers to increase initial ages for driving cars and there have been moves to restrict driving with age. The reasons behind this are sound and the aim is to improve safety. There is no difference here and there will be those who fall out of the 'average' and who consequently will feel marginalised. That is the way it is.

"Once again you are right, we are all permitted our own opinions, it's just that some of us are unable to put them forward without causing offence. Then the fish bite!"

Well it does not really matter what you do, there will always be someone to take a fence.

"I have no axe to grind on the subject, I'm an old fart now but am happy to be a part of a two crew operation. My first 8000 hours were single pilot and I was happy with my own company, the next 9000 hours and growing have also been great by having the company of a second pilot. At 65 I'll stop because I have to not because I want to, and while I will be sad it won't be the end of the world, I've the second half of my life to live. Dread to think what my wife will say having me home all day though!!"

LOL ......well I am looking forward to the 'second half of my life' as you put it. I am capable of more than just this and besides, there is far more to do and see. However, being at home will seem very strange......not sure where it is.........

Best Wishes

[soggyboxers]

I think the only one with blinkers here is psyan. He obviously failed to read the bit in the ICAO report which said:

As with age 60, there is no credible medical, scientific or aviation evidence to suggest that concerns for safety require a mandatory retirement age for pilots of 65

or:

The incidence of fatal accidents from human error is, however, far greater than that from physical illness.

Maybe when he gets a bit older he'll widen his horizons

[Bertie Thruster]

The Australian resolution suits me.

[SirVivr]

For What It's Worth

The DCA of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago just changed it's rules to allow a pilot to fly until age 65, if he is a member of a multiple pilot crew. He is required to have a yearly medical.

The only restriction is that the total age of the pilots not exceed 120 years.

Single Pilot for "Commercial Air Transport carrying passengers" is also 65, but reqiures a medical every 6 months.

I am copying this from my license.

Had to change crews recently because of the total age, but now we have four young female pilots.

That's life in the tropics.

Chas A
SirVivr

[psyan]

Sirvivr tapped rhythmically: " Had to change crews recently because of the total age, but now we have four young female pilots.

That's life in the tropics."

That dear chap is precisely why you need to retire. Nice weather, beach, women............you got it all now. Why bother flying?

[anjouan]

Just possibly, without the benefit of a military pension to supplement his salary, because he needs the money

[Whirlybird]

Would people favour a higher mandatory retirement age? And if so what would it be? Or The ability to continue flying until you either fail the medical (which I guess would become more comprehensive) or drop down dead??

The second. On the grounds of logic and fairness, and lack of evidence that it shouldn't be this way.

[ambidextrous]

military pensions - what's one of those???

Anjouan,
Just for clarification & without wishing to go off at a tangent to this thread.
Unless you retired from the UK military after 31st.March 1975 (I didn't) you don't receive a pension if you served less than 21 years, only a gratuity. Yes, really!
Pro-rata pensions were only introduced as a result of the introduction of the 1973 Social Security Act.
If there are any UK ex-military out there who wish to change this state of affairs then go to: www.afpg.info/
with fraternal greetings,
ambi

[Fareastdriver]

For those who think that more severe medical check are required for pilots over sixty the Ppruners in Oz will be aware of what CASA requires. Another country also has no age limits and that is The Peoples Republic of China. The principle is the same as OZ, a full medical once a year with a top-up six months later, only that the full medical is slightly different.
First there is a GOD ALMIGHTY medical at a nominated hospital. This is the whole wack. Body X-rays, echograms, blood samples and lots and lots of general poking about.. After that, off to another hospital to do the stress ECG, the audio and eyes. When that is finished and you have the necessary certificates you go to the CAAC hospital to do you airman’s medical. They repeat a few things and subject you to a fiendish sight test, ENT and reflexes. At the end of that you get your Class One medical certificate.
The Chinese tend to be short sighted and it is depressing watching a young wannebe pilot struggling to decipher something at five metres which is blindingly obvious to you. However outside the door there are lots of U/T F/As to chat up.
But that is not the end.
To work in China you need a Work Permit and a Residence Visa. To stop the place being cluttered up with crocked foreigners you have to take another medical at another nominated hospital. Your Class One aviation medical doesn’t count, it’s a different department.
A similar whirl of X-rays, echograms, ECGs, three blood samples this time and then they put you through the mangle looking at things the other three hospitals haven’t thought about. You get spat out after about three hours and a week later you get a certificate and a book that catalogs every part of you anatomy with what’s right or wrong about it.
After all that I don’t think I’m going to pop my clogs allofasudden.

[soggyboxers]

FED,

You say that there are no age limits in China, but I don't think that's strictly true. I know there are a number of over 60s working in southern China, but I was offered a job flying in northern China and the offer was withdrawn because the northern department of CAAC wouldn't issue a medical certificate to anyone over 60. I'd already been told about the tests to which you referred, but they wouldn't even allow me to sit a medical.

[SirVivr]

Anjouan

"Just possibly, without the benefit of a military pension to supplement his salary, because he needs the money."

No military pension, so yes, I need the money.

Mentoring young female pilots is also VERY good for the male ego.

Retirement would preferably be on the island of Phuket. What gives out first? Your liver or your prostrate?

Two years to decide.

Chas A
SirVivr

[Fareastdriver]

Soggyboxers
I can believe you, it is difficult if not impossible without a track record. I did, because the company pushed for me and spoke to the right people. Twelve years with them helped. An added bonus was that several Chinese pilots in our organisation who were expecting to be put out to grass have been retained because of my situation and very happy they are too.
Look on the bright side. Tanjian isn't too bad but Tanggu is a bloody miserable place. That's when you can see it through the smog. I flew out of there one winter and there was 15 kms of thin pack ice to start off with and then had to fly around a jack up that resembled a Christmas cake until they had chipped the ice off the helideck.
However we are straying off the thread. The point I am trying to make is that there is a system, both in Australia and China that ensures that people can fly safely after attaining the age of sixty five. So why can't there be the same system in other countries.

[Good Vibs]

Anybody can retire and/or quit when they want to. But why force one to quit just because of their age. As long as one keeps passing his/her flight checks, flight physicals & and can still do the job why not continue flying commercially until he/she reaches the age of 65.
For what its worth the Nigerian NCAA has confirmed that commercial pilots can continue flying PIC until they reach the age of 65 two crew. The second pilot must be under 60, there is no 120 limit on the age of both.
And also the German Luftfahrt Bundesamt (LBA) allows single pilot commercial flying until the age of 65.
Some of us really like our work flying so why quit early!

[SirVivr]

GV:

"Some of us really like our work flying so why quit early!"

A thought along the same lines.

Many of my same age friends agree that we fly for free because we still enjoy it.

We are paid for all the BS that we have to put up with.

Chas A
SirVivr

[Brilliant Stuff]

"Many of my same age friends agree that we fly for free because we still enjoy it.

We are paid for all the BS that we have to put up with."

Never looked at it like that.

[Panther06]

Ageism

Its alive and well in the U.S. Actively supported by the FAA and ALPA.