Bond/OAT "Sponsorship"
Interesting that all the European operators are taking their training to the US. Any feedback from the flying schools in the UK and the rest of Europe? I've heard that helicopter training is a dying industry in Europe because the Bristow, CHC and now Bond just takes it to a jurisdiction where it is most efficient. What about all the blah, blah about JAR standards and how much better and safer the JAA system of training pilots is? Sounds like nobody has bought in and now the regulators have killed the industry they were supposed to support.
malabo
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Malabo - Bristow Academy provide JAA courses in the US, so I would presume operators are training in the US over Europe due to the economic advantages as oppose to regulatory advantages
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At the risk of going slightly off-topic...
I think the UK PPL/CPL training system is a joke now. Everyone buggers off abroad, and either stays there, or come back and convert their licence, and/or go the IR/North Sea route. Most people that do their PPL/CPL in the UK are ones with family/work commitments to the UK, and who can't take months off work to train abroad. Everyone knows it's MUCH cheaper abroad, and flight schools that poo-poo training abroad are just bitter about not being able to compete on cost, the "only us brits know how to fly, the radio/airspace over here is much harder etc" attitude that is around doesn't help either.
Compared to years ago (when you could do your own self-study CPL groundschool for £500, as oppose to £3,500 these days) and be an FI with just a PPL+200 hours) there are hardly any new instructors coming through because you simply can't make a half decent living as an instructor (£60k investment for £17k a year 'salary'), and you generally get treated pretty badly.
It's very sad. But I think we have over-regulation and over-cost here in the UK. Even discounting the loony CAA charges, things like landing fees/circuit fees/fuel surcharges/exam fees/membership fees etc just put people off training in the UK. Why spend £17,000 your PPL when you can spend £12,000?
By the way, I speak as a professional heli pilot who has trained/worked/taught in the US and UK over the last few years.
I think the UK PPL/CPL training system is a joke now. Everyone buggers off abroad, and either stays there, or come back and convert their licence, and/or go the IR/North Sea route. Most people that do their PPL/CPL in the UK are ones with family/work commitments to the UK, and who can't take months off work to train abroad. Everyone knows it's MUCH cheaper abroad, and flight schools that poo-poo training abroad are just bitter about not being able to compete on cost, the "only us brits know how to fly, the radio/airspace over here is much harder etc" attitude that is around doesn't help either.
Compared to years ago (when you could do your own self-study CPL groundschool for £500, as oppose to £3,500 these days) and be an FI with just a PPL+200 hours) there are hardly any new instructors coming through because you simply can't make a half decent living as an instructor (£60k investment for £17k a year 'salary'), and you generally get treated pretty badly.
It's very sad. But I think we have over-regulation and over-cost here in the UK. Even discounting the loony CAA charges, things like landing fees/circuit fees/fuel surcharges/exam fees/membership fees etc just put people off training in the UK. Why spend £17,000 your PPL when you can spend £12,000?
By the way, I speak as a professional heli pilot who has trained/worked/taught in the US and UK over the last few years.
manfromuncle,
You are not off topic. When major operators take their training dollars completely off the continent there has to be a major problem with the system. For the toils and sacrifices of everyone struggling to do a helicopter license on their own in Europe, they are now considered a saps and a suckers. After all, the majors would as soon hire your neighbour off the street that has never seen a helicopter and put him into an offshore IFR helicopter. All you guys that spent 200k to get a CAA/JAA CPL/IR on your own and are still looking for work feeling any better?
My sympathy to the flying schools in Europe. They're probably getting boarded up if they can afford the boards.
The US and Canadian training industry is vibrant and expanding - with a lot of foreign students from countries where regulations and "economics" have become major obstacles to their training.
malabo
You are not off topic. When major operators take their training dollars completely off the continent there has to be a major problem with the system. For the toils and sacrifices of everyone struggling to do a helicopter license on their own in Europe, they are now considered a saps and a suckers. After all, the majors would as soon hire your neighbour off the street that has never seen a helicopter and put him into an offshore IFR helicopter. All you guys that spent 200k to get a CAA/JAA CPL/IR on your own and are still looking for work feeling any better?
My sympathy to the flying schools in Europe. They're probably getting boarded up if they can afford the boards.
The US and Canadian training industry is vibrant and expanding - with a lot of foreign students from countries where regulations and "economics" have become major obstacles to their training.
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From the Press and Journal
http://www.thisisnorthscotland.co.uk...=sidebarsearch
BOND INVESTS £4M IN TRAINING NEW PILOTS AND ENGINEERS
08:50 - 22 August 2007
Bond aviation group announced yesterday training programmes for new pilots and engineers.
Around £4million is being invested in a move to provide 12 pilots and 20 engineers for operating companies Bond Offshore Helicopters and Bond Air Services.
Aberdeen-based Bond Offshore Helicopters currently operates seven Super Puma AS332L Mk IIs in the oil and gas industry - five on crew-change flights and two specially modified for dedicated search-and-rescue services. Two Super Puma EC 225s will be added next year.
Bond Air Services has its headquarters at Staverton, Gloucestershire, and is the United Kingdom's largest onshore helicopter opera-tor.
It operates 24 aircraft - 15 EC 135T2 helicopters and nine Bolkow 105s - flying from 18 bases throughout the country, with a diverse range of operations, including support for police forces, ambulance services and lighthouses.
Bond executive chairman Peter Bond said: "Both companies are continuing to recruit experienced pilots and engineers.
"But we recognise that the shortage facing the industry requires a proactive approach in attracting new people and to help meet our longer-term requirements in expanding our activities.
"We have a history of investing in people and of providing security of employment and career development. These programmes will continue that commitment."
Twelve applicants are being sought to train as pilots, with the first stage in the US where they will spend 48 weeks gaining their flying licences, followed by 16 weeks with the Bond training division at Staverton for instrument rating.
Four engineering apprentices annually are being sponsored by Bond over five years, with the first group of students already in training.
The Bond companies have a staff of around 350.
http://www.thisisnorthscotland.co.uk...=sidebarsearch
BOND INVESTS £4M IN TRAINING NEW PILOTS AND ENGINEERS
08:50 - 22 August 2007
Bond aviation group announced yesterday training programmes for new pilots and engineers.
Around £4million is being invested in a move to provide 12 pilots and 20 engineers for operating companies Bond Offshore Helicopters and Bond Air Services.
Aberdeen-based Bond Offshore Helicopters currently operates seven Super Puma AS332L Mk IIs in the oil and gas industry - five on crew-change flights and two specially modified for dedicated search-and-rescue services. Two Super Puma EC 225s will be added next year.
Bond Air Services has its headquarters at Staverton, Gloucestershire, and is the United Kingdom's largest onshore helicopter opera-tor.
It operates 24 aircraft - 15 EC 135T2 helicopters and nine Bolkow 105s - flying from 18 bases throughout the country, with a diverse range of operations, including support for police forces, ambulance services and lighthouses.
Bond executive chairman Peter Bond said: "Both companies are continuing to recruit experienced pilots and engineers.
"But we recognise that the shortage facing the industry requires a proactive approach in attracting new people and to help meet our longer-term requirements in expanding our activities.
"We have a history of investing in people and of providing security of employment and career development. These programmes will continue that commitment."
Twelve applicants are being sought to train as pilots, with the first stage in the US where they will spend 48 weeks gaining their flying licences, followed by 16 weeks with the Bond training division at Staverton for instrument rating.
Four engineering apprentices annually are being sponsored by Bond over five years, with the first group of students already in training.
The Bond companies have a staff of around 350.
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Personally I don´t understand why the industrie does not "sponsor" more pilots.
Today can everyone with a big pocket become a pilot, no wonder that there are so much unemployed pilots. They aren´t good enough according to the empolyers.
It's true that there are alot of low-hour pilots that are unemployed. That's why you can call X pilots for testing as opposed to X people off the street. As in this case, I'm sure that you can find 12 suitable candidates out of both groups, while the people off the street would cost the company more to train.
For both the pilot and the company its a win win situation.
I suspect that the Bond ab-initio scheme is a way to buy publicity. We have already seen that they've got several articles written about it and this very thread seems very popular. Bond probably want to communicate that they are a company investing in people and at the same time showing that they are expanding so heavily that they even need to run this ab-initio scheme.
On the one hand, I'm very positive that this ab-initio scheme is a great opportunity for those candidates that are elected. On the other hand, it's not fair to all low-time pilots with licences that might do just fine on the testing, but never get a chance to even make it to the initial testing. But hey, it's a commercial industry and the operators decide whatever they think is commercially viable, which is probably why Bristow and CHC does not run an ab-initio scheme.
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efhfpilot - No
Bond has a history of sponsoring pilots who start off as clean slates. They are looking for what they would term as "Bond people" and will select accordingly. They have been very successful at picking the right candidates and have had few failures through this approach.
They are looking for candidates who won't pose a training risk and will be bonded to the company at the end of their training.
It may seem hard on those who have self sponsored but that is life. There are too many CPLs with no IR and few hours. The other companies are crying out for experienced pilots who are captain material so it looks like a good time to leave the services and join the offshore companies with a real chance of being made a Captain quickly - this is what happened to me when I joined - Captain within 6 months.
332M
Bond has a history of sponsoring pilots who start off as clean slates. They are looking for what they would term as "Bond people" and will select accordingly. They have been very successful at picking the right candidates and have had few failures through this approach.
They are looking for candidates who won't pose a training risk and will be bonded to the company at the end of their training.
It may seem hard on those who have self sponsored but that is life. There are too many CPLs with no IR and few hours. The other companies are crying out for experienced pilots who are captain material so it looks like a good time to leave the services and join the offshore companies with a real chance of being made a Captain quickly - this is what happened to me when I joined - Captain within 6 months.
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It's about time that the industry started to show some investment into future pilots, I applaud Bond whole heartedly, it is an absolutely amazing offer and limbs will be bitten off to get on the scheme!
I am surprised though that Bond didn't just dip their toes into the pool of investment rather than dive in head first. I would have expected them to maybe first offer sponsored twin ratings combined with IR to existing self sponsored students (of which I'm in that category). I would have thought that approach would have been a more likely half way house; the student investing a substantial amount and then the employer taking the student onto further ratings and qualifications. This way both the student and employer have shown a level of financial commitment and both have taken a substantial risk and as such both are in a proven partnership to see it through to completion.
If there truly is a shortage of experience pilots/captains out there then this surely needs to be addressed. What we need to put a stop to is this chicken and egg scenario - "need to get a job to gain more hours/can't get a job because I haven't got enough hours" - if this isn't addressed the gap will only get bigger. Operators need to start putting schemes into place to help give the low hour pilots a helping leg up into the industry.
If you read the Ts & Cs on the website they are making it very clear that they want to take you from scratch. A clue is that even if you have passed all your ATPL theory exams, they'd want you to take the ground school and exams all over again, I'd rather not go through that pain again! You also can't apply if you're currently with any other FTO.
At my stage, I'm happy to offer limbs up for sacrifice for my twin and IR rating if someone were to offer it; but I suspect that a reduced number of limbs may be detrimental to my Class 1
If only this was around 7 months ago, I just might have been able to save myself £50K. Hopefully some other operators may follow Bond's lead and start to offer sponsored twin and IR schemes.
As a parting note, I wish that posters wouldn't get flamed for asking what the pay packet is like, I think it's a perfectly legitimate question (but yes of course, it shouldn't be the first and foremost question at an interview!); for the students that have self sponsored themselves through their training they need to know that they are going to be able to pay it off and still not be on the bread line. Just because we will hopefully be doing something we are passionate about doesn't mean that we should tolerate poor pay conditions, after all we are supposed to be "professional" pilots so it's not unreasonable to expect a "professional" level of renumeration. To think that a London Underground Tube driver earns around £31K per year without having to self sponsor and without having to go through as many grueling qualifications, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a salary that reflects the personal and financial inputs made by a low hour self sponsored pilot. For the majority of people, putting at least £50K on the line is showing enough commitment and drive to be a professional pilot, so lets not try and bring their motivation into question, it's insulting as many of us "have put their money where their mouth is".
I am surprised though that Bond didn't just dip their toes into the pool of investment rather than dive in head first. I would have expected them to maybe first offer sponsored twin ratings combined with IR to existing self sponsored students (of which I'm in that category). I would have thought that approach would have been a more likely half way house; the student investing a substantial amount and then the employer taking the student onto further ratings and qualifications. This way both the student and employer have shown a level of financial commitment and both have taken a substantial risk and as such both are in a proven partnership to see it through to completion.
If there truly is a shortage of experience pilots/captains out there then this surely needs to be addressed. What we need to put a stop to is this chicken and egg scenario - "need to get a job to gain more hours/can't get a job because I haven't got enough hours" - if this isn't addressed the gap will only get bigger. Operators need to start putting schemes into place to help give the low hour pilots a helping leg up into the industry.
If you read the Ts & Cs on the website they are making it very clear that they want to take you from scratch. A clue is that even if you have passed all your ATPL theory exams, they'd want you to take the ground school and exams all over again, I'd rather not go through that pain again! You also can't apply if you're currently with any other FTO.
At my stage, I'm happy to offer limbs up for sacrifice for my twin and IR rating if someone were to offer it; but I suspect that a reduced number of limbs may be detrimental to my Class 1
If only this was around 7 months ago, I just might have been able to save myself £50K. Hopefully some other operators may follow Bond's lead and start to offer sponsored twin and IR schemes.
As a parting note, I wish that posters wouldn't get flamed for asking what the pay packet is like, I think it's a perfectly legitimate question (but yes of course, it shouldn't be the first and foremost question at an interview!); for the students that have self sponsored themselves through their training they need to know that they are going to be able to pay it off and still not be on the bread line. Just because we will hopefully be doing something we are passionate about doesn't mean that we should tolerate poor pay conditions, after all we are supposed to be "professional" pilots so it's not unreasonable to expect a "professional" level of renumeration. To think that a London Underground Tube driver earns around £31K per year without having to self sponsor and without having to go through as many grueling qualifications, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a salary that reflects the personal and financial inputs made by a low hour self sponsored pilot. For the majority of people, putting at least £50K on the line is showing enough commitment and drive to be a professional pilot, so lets not try and bring their motivation into question, it's insulting as many of us "have put their money where their mouth is".
Last edited by Windy Pants; 1st Sep 2007 at 17:24.
From my experience, the reason for wanting to sponsor ab initio is so that they can obtain a long term stable workforce. It is better for Bond to be able to tie people into a six year bonding, or whatever the terms are, rather than sponsoring for an IR, bonding for two years at which time the candidates decide they dont like Aberdeen and leave. Either that or they use their experience and move to fixed wing. This is precisely what happened to their early sponsored candidates, 6 out of 8 went over to fixed wing, but not until Bond had already had their 6 years first.
If you already have a CPL but want to be sponsored towards the IR you may well be listened to a bit more if you suggested you would be willing to sign on for at least 5-6 years.
If you already have a CPL but want to be sponsored towards the IR you may well be listened to a bit more if you suggested you would be willing to sign on for at least 5-6 years.
Last edited by pitchlink; 1st Sep 2007 at 19:15. Reason: spelling
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If you already have a CPL but want to be sponsored towards the IR you may well be listened to a bit more if you suggested you would be willing to sign on for at least 5-6 years.
You spent 50K just getting a JAA CPL?! I hope that includes living/transport/rent etc. If not, you were ripped off.
Last edited by Windy Pants; 1st Sep 2007 at 20:13.
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£50k just to get a CPL with 135 hours and the ATPL exams passed?!
Blimey, no wonder everyone is going abroad to train. I got to almost 300 hours with a FI rating and it cost me less than that.
I've never understood why people go the integrated route. Unless they really -need- to be taught in a classroom (ie. can't study at home).
Blimey, no wonder everyone is going abroad to train. I got to almost 300 hours with a FI rating and it cost me less than that.
I've never understood why people go the integrated route. Unless they really -need- to be taught in a classroom (ie. can't study at home).
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Different circumstance for different people, time is a major factor, it's a very concentrated course. Also there's the fact that employers show a preference to the integrated student rather than the modular. Before I get shot down, I'm not defending this approach just mearly stating an observation. To be exact the course is around £46K if you pay up front. I think it might have gone up a couple of K.
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Bond has a history of sponsoring pilots who start off as clean slates
I would hardly call a PPL a clean slate. I for one think it’s great they are considering people from a variety of backgrounds with varying experience.
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Unless they really -need- to be taught in a classroom
, but I agree, during many of the hours of sitting in a class I sometimes wished that they just gave us the material to self study; for certain subjects there wasn't much benefit derived from hearing it from someone at the front of the class; but that said there were many times that the instructors filled in many gaps with useful experience. It would be interesting to do an analysis of the number of first time passes and grades between an intensive ground school setup vs a home study approach.But as I mentioned before many operators like dealing with an established FTO as they will get a report from the school on the candidate, yes, you could argue that the report is not worth the paper it's written on, but on the other hand the school is not doing itself any favors regarding it's reputation if they recommend mediocre students to their operators. So with that bit of knowledge sometimes it's better to maybe pay slightly extra if it gives you boost in the initial stages of your career.
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A few are owning up to being called in on this thread:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=287874
S
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=287874
S