News Helos Collide in Arizona
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 217
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have actually seen all 5 examples accomplished successfuly as single pilot operations. You just have to remember that flying the machine is priority one, everything else is subsequent to that. If you find yourself task saturated, it is time to step back, regroup and re-engage.
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: USA
Age: 54
Posts: 305
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I saw a picture once of a guy holding a steady hover with his knees while pointing a rifle out the door and shooting at a deer. I don't know if that illustrates a point or not. Just thought I'd throw it in there...
Is the Pilot/Reporter job "safe"?
Certainly there are many different tasks that helicopters do in which the pilot does more than just fly around with nothing else on his mind. ENG, in which the pilot is also the reporter requires a high level of multi-tasking, yes. But is that level unreasonably high? Can it be done safely? Well, it *is* done all the time, all over the U.S. and has been done for decades.
These particular pilots could easily have flown into mountains, or powerlines or whatever, as legions of their peers have done before them. Pilots lose situational awareness all the time and pay the ultimate price. The fact that these two were reporting on something happening on the ground did not relieve them of the requirement to fly the aircraft and not hit anything.
But the "rolling scene" (i.e. the chase) they were covering was at a cruicial point: The driver of the chased vehicle stopped, got out and switched to another vehicle as the police closed in. The drama! It's easy to see how the pilots would be fixated as they watched what was unfolding and attempted to describe it to their viewers. They were probably dividing their time between the in-ship monitors and actually looking down at the action on the ground. I would be.
Apparently, the two ships involved in the midair were even talking to each other immediately before the crash, "more or less" aware of each other's position. One had just come to a hover; the other was still circling.
I suppose it would have been just as easy and effective to have someone in the studio comment on that action at that point and just let the pilots fly. What more could the pilot see than the anchor on the ground? In this case, the local ABC/15 station anchor was doing nearly as much commenting as the pilot!
It's a tragedy, and there will surely be calls for "changes" of some sort. But truly, none are necessary. We don't need any *more* regulations to tell us how to fly safely.
Then again...refer back to my first paragraph about how this practice of having pilot/reporters dates back decades. Let us remember that safety is not merely the absence of an accident. The fact that there have been pilot/reporters all over the place doing it for a long time without accident does not by itself make it a safe practice. Some will say that such an accident as happened in Phoenix as "inevitable." One pilot on another of these boards - a pilot who's done this very type of work! - called the fact that there haven't been more of these types of accidents "miraculous."
I have done radio traffic-reporting in NYC as pilot/reporter, and I know how easy it is to find yourself looking at the ground more than is prudent. And yes, I've had the near-misses to drive that point home. But I'm not ready to say that pilot/reporters are dangerous. However, this accident in Phoenix is still too fresh for me to form an objective opinion as to whether having a pilot/reporter is really a safe thing.
It's just very, very sad.
These particular pilots could easily have flown into mountains, or powerlines or whatever, as legions of their peers have done before them. Pilots lose situational awareness all the time and pay the ultimate price. The fact that these two were reporting on something happening on the ground did not relieve them of the requirement to fly the aircraft and not hit anything.
But the "rolling scene" (i.e. the chase) they were covering was at a cruicial point: The driver of the chased vehicle stopped, got out and switched to another vehicle as the police closed in. The drama! It's easy to see how the pilots would be fixated as they watched what was unfolding and attempted to describe it to their viewers. They were probably dividing their time between the in-ship monitors and actually looking down at the action on the ground. I would be.
Apparently, the two ships involved in the midair were even talking to each other immediately before the crash, "more or less" aware of each other's position. One had just come to a hover; the other was still circling.
I suppose it would have been just as easy and effective to have someone in the studio comment on that action at that point and just let the pilots fly. What more could the pilot see than the anchor on the ground? In this case, the local ABC/15 station anchor was doing nearly as much commenting as the pilot!
It's a tragedy, and there will surely be calls for "changes" of some sort. But truly, none are necessary. We don't need any *more* regulations to tell us how to fly safely.
Then again...refer back to my first paragraph about how this practice of having pilot/reporters dates back decades. Let us remember that safety is not merely the absence of an accident. The fact that there have been pilot/reporters all over the place doing it for a long time without accident does not by itself make it a safe practice. Some will say that such an accident as happened in Phoenix as "inevitable." One pilot on another of these boards - a pilot who's done this very type of work! - called the fact that there haven't been more of these types of accidents "miraculous."
I have done radio traffic-reporting in NYC as pilot/reporter, and I know how easy it is to find yourself looking at the ground more than is prudent. And yes, I've had the near-misses to drive that point home. But I'm not ready to say that pilot/reporters are dangerous. However, this accident in Phoenix is still too fresh for me to form an objective opinion as to whether having a pilot/reporter is really a safe thing.
It's just very, very sad.
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: USA
Age: 75
Posts: 3,012
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
FH1100,
you hit it right on the head. This accident may be second cousin to the type that used to plague EMS, where the pilot wraps himself so much in the excitement and drama of the moment ("Dying child needs rescue!" looks a lot like "Fleeing Criminal grabs hostage!")
I lost 2 good friends in Vietnam when they became so fixated on the bad guys running around below them that they just pulled out way too low.
you hit it right on the head. This accident may be second cousin to the type that used to plague EMS, where the pilot wraps himself so much in the excitement and drama of the moment ("Dying child needs rescue!" looks a lot like "Fleeing Criminal grabs hostage!")
I lost 2 good friends in Vietnam when they became so fixated on the bad guys running around below them that they just pulled out way too low.
Amen to both 1100 and Mr.Lappos
I have been following this thread and noticed that most people said the right thing, because we all as helicopter pilots, know where the responsibility of this accident rests eventually.
This accident is sad and unfortunate and almost certain to guarantee yet another knee-jerk reaction by the Feds, one that very likely won't do nothing to solve the problem other than cure the symptoms.
For right now let's keep the families in our thoughts.
This accident is sad and unfortunate and almost certain to guarantee yet another knee-jerk reaction by the Feds, one that very likely won't do nothing to solve the problem other than cure the symptoms.
For right now let's keep the families in our thoughts.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Sydney
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The pilot who acts as on air reporter is much more widespread than you think. Helinet alone have about 5 or 6 of their operations that are a combined operation, with some of these in such built up places as Los Angeles, where its an insane place to fly in at the best of times. On one fire operation I had the chance to go on there were a total of eighteen helicopters in a relatively small airspace. For those who know LA it was around the Pepperdine Uni at Malibu. There were five fire fighting helos, LA County Sheriff, LAPD, Chuck Street in his Mountain Dew 206B and every other TV and radio station you could think of, plus helos that the newspapers that hired helos to get shots.
The other thing with pilot/reporters is that the equipment on these helos has got so sophisticated they need a Bach of Arts degree to work it. Next time you are at Van Nuys or Teteboro have a look inside one of these helos, they are jam packed with equipment, the cameraman in the back has what looks like a portable studio with him, and the pilot of these helos is expected to know how it all works, talk about pressure.
This accident wasnt an if it was going to happen, it was "when". Condolences to all involved and maybe its about time the pilot role was divorced from the reporter, maybe like the pilot of an EMS helo is seperated from what goes in in the back and its his job to make sure the number of landings equals the number of take offs.
Just my 0.2cents worth.
The other thing with pilot/reporters is that the equipment on these helos has got so sophisticated they need a Bach of Arts degree to work it. Next time you are at Van Nuys or Teteboro have a look inside one of these helos, they are jam packed with equipment, the cameraman in the back has what looks like a portable studio with him, and the pilot of these helos is expected to know how it all works, talk about pressure.
This accident wasnt an if it was going to happen, it was "when". Condolences to all involved and maybe its about time the pilot role was divorced from the reporter, maybe like the pilot of an EMS helo is seperated from what goes in in the back and its his job to make sure the number of landings equals the number of take offs.
Just my 0.2cents worth.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 79
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have actually seen all 5 examples accomplished successfuly as single pilot operations. You just have to remember that flying the machine is priority one, everything else is subsequent to that. If you find yourself task saturated, it is time to step back, regroup and re-engage.
when an accident like this happens the pilot is not flying around thinking "i'm task saturated but the mission must go on". i'm sure every one of us has had times when we are flying where we become distracted and are all of a sudden shocked when something else happens and gives you a bit of a scare. usually no harm comes of it and you go home having learned a lesson. unfortunately these individuals didn't get the chance to learn from it this time.
we as pilots are proud and like to think we can handle the workload of a pilot/reporter, but the reality is, in my opinion, that the best thing that could come of this tragedy is for everyone to learn the lesson and do away with the pilot reporter in these congested areas.
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: N20,W99
Age: 53
Posts: 1,119
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There is no way that not having a dedicated reporter on board is due to weight! I have flown hundreds of hours at above 9000 feet doing ENG with myself a cameraman, a reporter and sometimes even a radio operator on a 206 L3, and that with an hours worth of fuel, helicopter being fully equipped with GyroCam and MW transmision equipment, so if it can be done at 9000 feet, I'm sure it can be done somewhere else that is much lower.
Then next, I think making a the pilot the reporter (or the other way around) is the stupidest idea newscasters have ever had, even in Markets where tha news is a little slow.
Lastly midair collisions can happen to anybody anywhere, and any pilot who has flown for a while has had at least a couple of close calls, so don't just focus on the fact that they were doing ENG.
I flown for years on the ENG market where when there is any good news scene you always have at least 3 and up to 7 helicopters in that particular spot, all below 800 feet, but we also had a lot of coordination, such as when we arrived on scene, first thing we did was announce what "flight level" were wer going to use, and by flight level I mean we would call out for example "I'll be at 8,500" and the other guy would maintain 100 above or below, and due to the fact that we can't hover much because we are very high, we would constantly circle and cross each other all the time.
Then next, I think making a the pilot the reporter (or the other way around) is the stupidest idea newscasters have ever had, even in Markets where tha news is a little slow.
Lastly midair collisions can happen to anybody anywhere, and any pilot who has flown for a while has had at least a couple of close calls, so don't just focus on the fact that they were doing ENG.
I flown for years on the ENG market where when there is any good news scene you always have at least 3 and up to 7 helicopters in that particular spot, all below 800 feet, but we also had a lot of coordination, such as when we arrived on scene, first thing we did was announce what "flight level" were wer going to use, and by flight level I mean we would call out for example "I'll be at 8,500" and the other guy would maintain 100 above or below, and due to the fact that we can't hover much because we are very high, we would constantly circle and cross each other all the time.
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 217
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Somepitch- the last sentence is the point- you have to be able to step back and regroup when you find yourself doing everything BUT flying the machine. Situational awareness is key when you are on your own. Not everyone can recognize when their SA is not were it should be, it takes good flight discipline. Cockpit distractions also need to be removed from the single pilot environment.
It is an important point, if the mission or mission equipment package is too complex to allow concentration on flying at all times, then additional crew members need to be added- always aviate first and don't allow anything to interfere with that.
It is an important point, if the mission or mission equipment package is too complex to allow concentration on flying at all times, then additional crew members need to be added- always aviate first and don't allow anything to interfere with that.
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Ban Don Ling
Posts: 244
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hey, Bwenda_pilot
Let us know the make and model of your barometric altimeters! Then I can feel much happier when distracted from pure flying - with our feeble 500' separation!
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Button Moon
Posts: 36
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think in summary, I would like to say that maybe this pilot/reporter can be done safely. Just not by me, and I do class myself as a reasonably competent pilot.
I know that personally, I could not be a reporter and effectively fly a helicopter in airspace with 2, 3 other aircraft in close proximity safely. I just could not do it. I wouldn't be confortable with it. I feel that in such an enviroment I need to dedicate my time and attention to flying alone in order to be operating safely.
However, this is just me. I'm sure that there are "super" pilots out there that are way better than me and have be doing this for years "safely".
My case is, that say I wasn't bright enough to know my limitations. I would be able to go do one of these jobs and put myself and other people at risk.
Something is wrong with that picture. That needs to change.
It really hurts me when I read about fellow pilots dying from practices that have been accepted for years but are not safe. We do not have to operate like that these days, wether it be cost, weight, ego, whatever. This is a job for most of us, remember that. We should never put our lives at risk for a job, never!
I know that personally, I could not be a reporter and effectively fly a helicopter in airspace with 2, 3 other aircraft in close proximity safely. I just could not do it. I wouldn't be confortable with it. I feel that in such an enviroment I need to dedicate my time and attention to flying alone in order to be operating safely.
However, this is just me. I'm sure that there are "super" pilots out there that are way better than me and have be doing this for years "safely".
My case is, that say I wasn't bright enough to know my limitations. I would be able to go do one of these jobs and put myself and other people at risk.
Something is wrong with that picture. That needs to change.
It really hurts me when I read about fellow pilots dying from practices that have been accepted for years but are not safe. We do not have to operate like that these days, wether it be cost, weight, ego, whatever. This is a job for most of us, remember that. We should never put our lives at risk for a job, never!
Last edited by platinumpure; 30th Jul 2007 at 18:33.
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Australia
Age: 52
Posts: 698
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think in summary, I would like to say that maybe this pilot/reporter can be done safely. Just not by me.
I'm a photography pilot, and am continually amazed by the amount of f
wits who ask "so, do you lean out the door to take the pictures AND fly the plane?"Perhaps now I'm beginning to realise that these people aren't so stupid... just the people who are setting the examples?!
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Desert Rat
Age: 53
Posts: 675
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This accident....
Low experience, high experience....does not matter...if you are bound for a mid-air, one will have one. The thing that worries me is the fact of increased viewer ratings, the sensation, and the elbowing for the best vantage point.
Enough said, I had a photographer onboard some moons ago screaming and yelling like a jarhead in a battlefield when he saw an opportunity to get a picture. Most importantantly, stay calm...man, I hate it when people yell in the cockpit.
Nevertheless, the accident footage is sobering...
just what the average viewer wants....the drama live on TV....sorry, just a thought
Enough said, I had a photographer onboard some moons ago screaming and yelling like a jarhead in a battlefield when he saw an opportunity to get a picture. Most importantantly, stay calm...man, I hate it when people yell in the cockpit.
Nevertheless, the accident footage is sobering...
just what the average viewer wants....the drama live on TV
....sorry, just a thought
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: In the moment
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
forget the glamour
Both helicopters had experienced camaremen in the back capable of reporting,
but role of cameraman is not a glamorous a job as percieved by viewers, as a pilot.
This an is underlying fact to consider if we are to lighten newspilot workload.
It is wise practice to use all the eyes in the cockpit to find local traffic, but it is a pilots job to maintain visual especially at such close proximity.
Reading reports of the accident and listening to the live audio from pilots one wonders if needing to give live commentry compromised radio comunication between aircraft.
It is one thing to expect a pilot, with other aircraft in close proxmity, to track a vehicle making random turns, but add in the tasks of needing to watch the in cockpit monitor as well as look to the ground to see what is happeng out of the field of view of the camaremen leaves less time to look for other aircraft. Usually one pilot or another takes avoiding action, unfortunately in this case given the availability of video evidence both sets of eyes could have been drawn down to a dramatic moment in the chase below, on which it was also their job to give intelligent commentry.
Creaser
but role of cameraman is not a glamorous a job as percieved by viewers, as a pilot.
This an is underlying fact to consider if we are to lighten newspilot workload.
It is wise practice to use all the eyes in the cockpit to find local traffic, but it is a pilots job to maintain visual especially at such close proximity.
Reading reports of the accident and listening to the live audio from pilots one wonders if needing to give live commentry compromised radio comunication between aircraft.
It is one thing to expect a pilot, with other aircraft in close proxmity, to track a vehicle making random turns, but add in the tasks of needing to watch the in cockpit monitor as well as look to the ground to see what is happeng out of the field of view of the camaremen leaves less time to look for other aircraft. Usually one pilot or another takes avoiding action, unfortunately in this case given the availability of video evidence both sets of eyes could have been drawn down to a dramatic moment in the chase below, on which it was also their job to give intelligent commentry.
Creaser
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: flyover country USA
Age: 82
Posts: 4,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: US
Posts: 231
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Decision Day for Chris Jones
PHOENIX - The man who police pursued through downtown Phoenix, leading to the crash of two news helicopters, will learn his punishment Friday October 1st.
Christopher Jones pleaded guilty to 35 counts, including car theft and running from the police. Jones faces a maximum sentence of up to 467 years.
Christopher Jones pleaded guilty to 35 counts, including car theft and running from the police. Jones faces a maximum sentence of up to 467 years.
The video animation used for the trial makes it seem as though Channel 15 basically rammed Channel 3's helo although my assumption is that Craig Smith was perhaps following activity on the ground and never even saw the Channel 3 helo.
Stunning Animation Shows Chopper Crash
ENG Pilots: Please keep your eyes wide open at all times but especially when sharing the same airspace with other helos!
HM
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: US
Posts: 231
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Chris Jones Outcome
Chris Jones was sentenced yesterday to 25 years in jail for the auto theft which resulted in a pursuit during which two news choppers collided over Phoenix July 27th 2007: Man Involved in News Crash: Media Portrayal Damned Me | Christopher Jones Sentencing
Channel 15's Helo
Channel 3's Helo
Both helos after the collision
The wreckage
RIP Jim (Channel 3 pilot) above and other crew members (below)
HM
Channel 15's Helo
Channel 3's Helo
Both helos after the collision
The wreckage
RIP Jim (Channel 3 pilot) above and other crew members (below)
HM
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Florida
Posts: 220
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ENG Cluster
I have been one of four ENG helicopters at a stationary scene where there was a search by law enforcement of a wooded area for an escapee. I can't imagine that many helicopters being involved in a chase sceanario. Strict adherence to altitude separation is not always as easy as it seems either, especially when there are law enforcement aircraft involved in the chase as well. The safest (and least expensive) way for everyone to get the shot is to pool the footage among the helo equipped stations, rotating aircraft. Some big headed news directors first have to get over themselves and stop having to be "First on the scene!"
My assignment 1995: Philadelphia (AS350BA)
My assignment 1995: Philadelphia (AS350BA)
Last edited by fly911; 2nd Oct 2010 at 11:26.
