So, who was the muppet....?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: west london
Posts: 104
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So, who was the muppet....?
Reds came through the London CTZ about 15 minutes ago, exiting via Northwood and just North of Chiltern. Suprise suprise...about three aircraft sitting dead on the route between 1000' and 2400' One of them, probably a R22 or R44, judging by it's groundspeed, came within a mile and 200' of the formation. I know this is class G airspace, but surely......
Point taken but as a matter of interest you mention groundspeed ?. To a certain extent the R22 but the R44 could have a similar groundspeed to a number of rotary and fixed wing aircraft and no it wasn,t me.
R
R
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: west london
Posts: 104
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
True..could've been any type of small rotary really, GS was less than 30kts, so possibly in a tight orbit. Just seemed to me that one or two folks were intentionally along the route for a good vantage point. Luckily the traffic was called to the Reds and they popped smoke to make themselves more conspicuous. Leader got visual with the unknown at about a mile and a half.
Looking on todays NOTAMs, the only Red Arrows reference visible is:
Last I looked, London CTZ and RAF Scampton were nowhere near each other - or in other words, why shouldn't a couple of light helicopters be doing whatever they liked in class G airspace?
Putting on smoke and avoiding seems perfectly reasonable action on the part of the Red Arrows, but surely they were just applying VFR see-and-avoid principles.
Or am I missing something?
G
EGXP
NAVW: Q)EGTT/QRTCA/IV/BO/AW/000/095/5318N00033W005
FROM 07/05/19 14:10 TO 07/05/19 14:50 J2080/07
E)AUS 07-05-0511/1436/AS1
RESTRICTED AREA (TEMPORARY) HAS BEEN ESTABLISHED UNDER ARTICLE 96 OF THE AIR NAVIGATION ORDER 2005 (MIL ACFT SHOULD COMPLY WITH JSP552.201.135.9) FOR A RED ARROWS DISPLAY WI 5NM RAD 5318N 00033W (SCAMPTON - LINCOLNSHIRE) UP TO 9500FT AMSL. OPS CONTROL RAF SCAMPTON ATC 01522 733055.
F)SFC G)9500FT AMSL
NAVW: Q)EGTT/QRTCA/IV/BO/AW/000/095/5318N00033W005
FROM 07/05/19 14:10 TO 07/05/19 14:50 J2080/07
E)AUS 07-05-0511/1436/AS1
RESTRICTED AREA (TEMPORARY) HAS BEEN ESTABLISHED UNDER ARTICLE 96 OF THE AIR NAVIGATION ORDER 2005 (MIL ACFT SHOULD COMPLY WITH JSP552.201.135.9) FOR A RED ARROWS DISPLAY WI 5NM RAD 5318N 00033W (SCAMPTON - LINCOLNSHIRE) UP TO 9500FT AMSL. OPS CONTROL RAF SCAMPTON ATC 01522 733055.
F)SFC G)9500FT AMSL
Putting on smoke and avoiding seems perfectly reasonable action on the part of the Red Arrows, but surely they were just applying VFR see-and-avoid principles.
Or am I missing something?
G
You're not missing anything, Genghis.
As you are probably aware, the Reds' route (and timings) were published recently:
Maybe ATCO17 regards this as a form of TA(R) rather than an invitation to spectate (which it turned out to be)...?
As you are probably aware, the Reds' route (and timings) were published recently:
Maybe ATCO17 regards this as a form of TA(R) rather than an invitation to spectate (which it turned out to be)...?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: west london
Posts: 104
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
British Isles Daily Nav Warnings....
NAVW: Q) EGTT/QWALW/IV/M/W/000/025/5133N00016W006
FROM 07/05/19 13:40 TO 07/05/19 14:00
E) AUS 07-05-0235/1415/AS1
FLYPAST BY THE RED ARROWS WI 6NM 5133N 00016W (WEMBLEY STADIUM - LONDON). INBOUND ROUTE VIA 5143N 0037E - 5133N 00010E - DATUM (1350HR). OUTBOUND ROUTE VIA 5138N 00028W (RICKMANSWORTH). AUS ACN 2007-05-0235 DATED 3 MAY 07 REFERS.
F) SFC G) 2500FT AMSL
Guess you missed something!
NAVW: Q) EGTT/QWALW/IV/M/W/000/025/5133N00016W006
FROM 07/05/19 13:40 TO 07/05/19 14:00
E) AUS 07-05-0235/1415/AS1
FLYPAST BY THE RED ARROWS WI 6NM 5133N 00016W (WEMBLEY STADIUM - LONDON). INBOUND ROUTE VIA 5143N 0037E - 5133N 00010E - DATUM (1350HR). OUTBOUND ROUTE VIA 5138N 00028W (RICKMANSWORTH). AUS ACN 2007-05-0235 DATED 3 MAY 07 REFERS.
F) SFC G) 2500FT AMSL
Guess you missed something!
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: England
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You're still not missing anything, Genghis.
I really cannot see the problem here.
Notam says warning so be warned
Look out of the window in the normal fashion.
They are a lot easier to see than many other aerial contraptions in the open FIR
Press
Notam says warning so be warned
Look out of the window in the normal fashion.
They are a lot easier to see than many other aerial contraptions in the open FIR
Press
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: UK
Age: 60
Posts: 240
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've had them fly about 400ft below me when I was just outside Luton zone. Very pretty, heard on Luton frequency that they were coming and we managed to avoid each other. Bear in mind that there are 8 (?) of them looking, there's only one of us in our a/c.
What do you want us to do - all hit the deck as soon as there's a NOTAM that the reds are out today if we are within 10 miles and an hour of their route?
We are all in uncontrolled airspace, if they need IFR only, they are welcome to go higher and miss all of us by a long way. They get FIS or RIS if they want it.
I think part of the Red arrows display is flying low between points so lots of people get to see them. They must be used to seeing us GA's floating about.
Infringing a display is completely different, but complaining about people being in uncontrolled airspace is a nonsense!
BW
What do you want us to do - all hit the deck as soon as there's a NOTAM that the reds are out today if we are within 10 miles and an hour of their route?
We are all in uncontrolled airspace, if they need IFR only, they are welcome to go higher and miss all of us by a long way. They get FIS or RIS if they want it.
I think part of the Red arrows display is flying low between points so lots of people get to see them. They must be used to seeing us GA's floating about.
Infringing a display is completely different, but complaining about people being in uncontrolled airspace is a nonsense!
BW
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: west london
Posts: 104
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Guys, I'm not trying to make a mega deal of this...Press, you are quite correct.."look out of the window", and "they are easier to see than a lot of other aerial contraptions..."
Yes, maybe nine red Hawks, trailing smoke are easily spotted from a slow moving helicopter, but imagine it the other way round...trying to spot a small, almost static helicopter, at low level and 300 knots, from the confined cockpit of a fast jet.
Indeed, Class G airspace is there for all to use and enjoy, without too many prohibitions. I'm simply questioning the wisdom of a pilot placing himself in close proximity to a formation of nine fast jets!.
Yes, maybe nine red Hawks, trailing smoke are easily spotted from a slow moving helicopter, but imagine it the other way round...trying to spot a small, almost static helicopter, at low level and 300 knots, from the confined cockpit of a fast jet.
Indeed, Class G airspace is there for all to use and enjoy, without too many prohibitions. I'm simply questioning the wisdom of a pilot placing himself in close proximity to a formation of nine fast jets!.
Join Date: May 2000
Location: uk
Posts: 268
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Indeed, Class G airspace is there for all to use and enjoy, without too many prohibitions. I'm simply questioning the wisdom of a pilot placing himself in close proximity to a formation of nine fast jets!.
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Maders UK
Age: 57
Posts: 806
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I quite agree that infringing a display (when each pilot is concentrating on his colleagues rather than scanning for traffic) is one thing, but when they are transiting in open airspace they have 9 pairs of eyes for our 1.
No muppets here as far as I can see.
Do they have TCAS? and if not why not?
SB
No muppets here as far as I can see.
Do they have TCAS? and if not why not?
SB
That's Life!!
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Out of the sand pit, carving a path through our jungle.
Age: 72
Posts: 396
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Never heard of 'Heli-Telis' ATCO17, how do you think the BBC managed to get shots of the reds over the stadium?
For the others who state they have x number of eyes looking out, how do you think they formate on the leader/each other?
For the others who state they have x number of eyes looking out, how do you think they formate on the leader/each other?
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Apa, apo ndi kulikonse!
Posts: 1,757
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There is absolutley NO ATC reason why they could not have climbed to 3000ft after Wembley and routed out like one of your Northolt outbounds. (Or for that matter come in inside CAS and descend if VMC)
There have been a number of incidents with London flypasts in the last few years.
http://tinyurl.com/2avf8q OR
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/423/02_07_...ed_airprox.pdf INCIDENT 143/06
More should be done to avoid risks like this in the future. They had planned to fly at 1500ft but the nav warning said SFC-2500ft (base of CAS of course!) Why not just say what they are PLANNING to do in the remarks?
I hope the rotary guys out of Denham (or wherever!) got some good pics. The only thing they perhaps should of done is be on the freq that was working the Reds. (Northolt 126.45 I guess)
Thinking about it, why not publish the intended freqs to give traffic a clue???
Finally, does a hawk fly out of the sky at less than 300kts???
There have been a number of incidents with London flypasts in the last few years.
http://tinyurl.com/2avf8q OR
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/423/02_07_...ed_airprox.pdf INCIDENT 143/06
More should be done to avoid risks like this in the future. They had planned to fly at 1500ft but the nav warning said SFC-2500ft (base of CAS of course!) Why not just say what they are PLANNING to do in the remarks?
I hope the rotary guys out of Denham (or wherever!) got some good pics. The only thing they perhaps should of done is be on the freq that was working the Reds. (Northolt 126.45 I guess)
Thinking about it, why not publish the intended freqs to give traffic a clue???
Finally, does a hawk fly out of the sky at less than 300kts???
And this underlines some fundamental differences between an ATCO brain and a heli brain. ATCO thinks that GA traffic in Glass G is inferior to the Reds. ATCO doesn't understand that the heli pilots were probably well aware what was going on - and with the vis today could see the Reds from Bovingdon before they even got to Wembley.
For heaven's sake - why headline your enquiry with the word "Muppet" ? Is that how you pre-judge people from what you see on your screen rather than knowing the full facts ?
Even worse, you've insulted Kermit.
For heaven's sake - why headline your enquiry with the word "Muppet" ? Is that how you pre-judge people from what you see on your screen rather than knowing the full facts ?
Even worse, you've insulted Kermit.
Better red than ...
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Appleby-in-Westmorland Cumbria England
Posts: 1,412
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
... just North of Chiltern. Suprise suprise...about three aircraft sitting dead on the route between 1000' and 2400' One of them, probably a R22 or R44, judging by it's groundspeed, ...
Was this location and the e/e lane location not covered in the planning briefing for the display pilots?
h-r
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: west london
Posts: 104
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Apologies to Kermit...and anyone else that may have been offended! The term Muppet was intended to be tongue in cheek!
Alan, as per the TOI, they then proceded to Rickmansworth for a flypast, however, at 1000ft rather than the published 1500 ft that we were briefed . The TOI then says ""the formation may climb, if required by the formation leader, remaining clear of controlled airspace" The restriction of remaining clear seems to have been placed on the formation by TC. That would still have kept them in bandit country.
The Reds nearly always transit at 2500 or below within the UK. And I further agree that it seems a daft altitude, especially at weekends when there is a lot more GA traffic about. The formation was talking to City Radar, Northolt and even Denham during the transit, all of whom were providing plenty of traffic information. But, depsite there being plent of 7000 squawks along the route outside the CTZ, none were heard on the RT.
I suppose, at the end of a long day, I'm just a little suprised that any GA pilots operating in the local area didn't call anyone for at least a FIS. We are all here to look out for each other and always more than willing to help.
Rant over!
Alan, as per the TOI, they then proceded to Rickmansworth for a flypast, however, at 1000ft rather than the published 1500 ft that we were briefed . The TOI then says ""the formation may climb, if required by the formation leader, remaining clear of controlled airspace" The restriction of remaining clear seems to have been placed on the formation by TC. That would still have kept them in bandit country.
The Reds nearly always transit at 2500 or below within the UK. And I further agree that it seems a daft altitude, especially at weekends when there is a lot more GA traffic about. The formation was talking to City Radar, Northolt and even Denham during the transit, all of whom were providing plenty of traffic information. But, depsite there being plent of 7000 squawks along the route outside the CTZ, none were heard on the RT.
I suppose, at the end of a long day, I'm just a little suprised that any GA pilots operating in the local area didn't call anyone for at least a FIS. We are all here to look out for each other and always more than willing to help.
Rant over!
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: surrey
Posts: 376
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by ATC017
I'm just a little suprised that any GA pilots operating in the local area didn't call anyone for at least a FIS
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Apa, apo ndi kulikonse!
Posts: 1,757
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Tall Guy - you mean the "Thames Controllers" - not City Radar which is a discrete freq for flypasts/no 2 director at EGLC.
However, during flypasts the freqs should be published and envouraged to MONITOR! (Even I would accept you calling if you expected to be in the same place at the same time etc) The people on 132.7 get annoyed when traffic at the Lea Valley calls routeing Elstree to Southend via Stapleford overhead at 1500ft. But that is a thread to itself.
ATCO17 - keep ranting if it helps mate!!! Speak on the landline/telephone checks!!!
Just another day in paradise fella. (You have the space old chap!!!)
Personally, I think the whole system is flawed. Flypast jets should be given a better routeing and access to CAS to make it safer for them, safer for joe public who need protecting(!!) and easier for us.
However, during flypasts the freqs should be published and envouraged to MONITOR! (Even I would accept you calling if you expected to be in the same place at the same time etc) The people on 132.7 get annoyed when traffic at the Lea Valley calls routeing Elstree to Southend via Stapleford overhead at 1500ft. But that is a thread to itself.
ATCO17 - keep ranting if it helps mate!!! Speak on the landline/telephone checks!!!
Just another day in paradise fella. (You have the space old chap!!!)Personally, I think the whole system is flawed. Flypast jets should be given a better routeing and access to CAS to make it safer for them, safer for joe public who need protecting(!!
) and easier for us.