So, who was the muppet....?
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Asking for a FIS is fine, but on a busy day, it's not unusual to hear 3 or more GA pilots calling into (say) Luton for a FIS and being asked to stand by.
I've managed to get all the way from Sandy to Panshanger without making it out of the standby stack, after which I don't need the service anyway!
If you've heard a few standbys and it's sounding as if the controllers are busy, then I tend to give a FIS request a miss if I'm reasonably happy with the airspace, partly to lessen their load.
The new conspicuity (sp?) code around Luton/Stansted is great for this kind of issue.
Also, some of us are just 'floating around', no particular place to go, just enjoying the scenery. It feels a bit daft calling in for FIS with direction described as bimbling about!
BW
I've managed to get all the way from Sandy to Panshanger without making it out of the standby stack, after which I don't need the service anyway!
If you've heard a few standbys and it's sounding as if the controllers are busy, then I tend to give a FIS request a miss if I'm reasonably happy with the airspace, partly to lessen their load.
The new conspicuity (sp?) code around Luton/Stansted is great for this kind of issue.
Also, some of us are just 'floating around', no particular place to go, just enjoying the scenery. It feels a bit daft calling in for FIS with direction described as bimbling about!
BW
Join Date: Apr 2004
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they have 9 pairs of eyes for our 1 - MY ARSE ;)
The Red Arrows dont have nine sets of eyes to look out.
Fly formation and I assure you you will quickly realise those other 8 sets of eyes are firmly fixed on the neighboring inboard aircraft and nowhere else. If you dont you will have a mid-air collision. Hence- only the leader aircraft looks out.
The other 8 aircraft wouldnt really know if the leader had misjudged a loop and was about to plant everybody into the ground in formation [ and thats what happened to a foreign team once - 7 or 8 neatly spaced holes in the ground].
The leader is effectively flying one quite large aircraft with hopeless manouvrability(sp) and they are going to have great difficulty taking avoiding action if they spot the little speck of an R22 a bit late.
I think it is a very good idea that formations are given very wide berths by all methods possible.
OOW
Fly formation and I assure you you will quickly realise those other 8 sets of eyes are firmly fixed on the neighboring inboard aircraft and nowhere else. If you dont you will have a mid-air collision. Hence- only the leader aircraft looks out.
The other 8 aircraft wouldnt really know if the leader had misjudged a loop and was about to plant everybody into the ground in formation [ and thats what happened to a foreign team once - 7 or 8 neatly spaced holes in the ground].
The leader is effectively flying one quite large aircraft with hopeless manouvrability(sp) and they are going to have great difficulty taking avoiding action if they spot the little speck of an R22 a bit late.
I think it is a very good idea that formations are given very wide berths by all methods possible.
OOW
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Am I missing something here?
90% of the air above us is radar controlled and anyone with suitable kit and license can fly through it and be steered so that they never come within 5 miles of anyone else.
10% is left for the citizens of the country to enjoy, bimbling about if they so wish, talking to no-one, non-radio even, just employing good old fashioned airmanship and taking responsibility for their own separation from hard stuff and others.
Someone, with good kit and license decides to take a very fast, very large, very unwieldy aircraft through the 10% bit and there are howls of disapproval if the aforementioned citizens do not immediately land or scatter to the other end of the country.
Just who is the muppet here?
10% is left for the citizens of the country to enjoy, bimbling about if they so wish, talking to no-one, non-radio even, just employing good old fashioned airmanship and taking responsibility for their own separation from hard stuff and others.
Someone, with good kit and license decides to take a very fast, very large, very unwieldy aircraft through the 10% bit and there are howls of disapproval if the aforementioned citizens do not immediately land or scatter to the other end of the country.
Just who is the muppet here?
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: England
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I think a little perspective is called for.
A day/nights work in the South of England calls for consideration of the following.
ATZ
Prohibited Areas
Restricted areas
Danger Areas
Temporary Restricted Areas
Microlight flying sites
Gliding Locations
Hang/Para gliding sites
Winch launch sites
Freefall Zones
Matz
Bird Sanctuaries
Gas Venting Sites
Areas of intense aerial activities
Controlled airspace to the surface
Controlled airspace above
Weather Balloon Launching sites
Masts
Large Kite Flying to 1500ft
Tethered Balloons to 5000ft
Add to this day or night:-
1) Weather
2) Lookout at all times for all sizes of aircraft from Autogiros/gliders to off airway Airliners and everything else transiting, climbing, decending high and low speed.
3) Notams, some short notice to be extracted from much superfluous nif naf.
All of this within less than an hours flying time.
Most of us cope with all of the above and do the job.
I say there is no muppetry involved in keeping an eye out for 9 red jets.
They are one of the easier hazards to deal with.
Press
A day/nights work in the South of England calls for consideration of the following.
ATZ
Prohibited Areas
Restricted areas
Danger Areas
Temporary Restricted Areas
Microlight flying sites
Gliding Locations
Hang/Para gliding sites
Winch launch sites
Freefall Zones
Matz
Bird Sanctuaries
Gas Venting Sites
Areas of intense aerial activities
Controlled airspace to the surface
Controlled airspace above
Weather Balloon Launching sites
Masts
Large Kite Flying to 1500ft
Tethered Balloons to 5000ft
Add to this day or night:-
1) Weather
2) Lookout at all times for all sizes of aircraft from Autogiros/gliders to off airway Airliners and everything else transiting, climbing, decending high and low speed.
3) Notams, some short notice to be extracted from much superfluous nif naf.
All of this within less than an hours flying time.
Most of us cope with all of the above and do the job.
I say there is no muppetry involved in keeping an eye out for 9 red jets.
They are one of the easier hazards to deal with.
Press
Avoid imitations
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"I say there is no muppetry involved in keeping an eye out for 9 red jets.
They are one of the easier hazards to deal with."
Especially when NOTAM'd. Keeping out of the way is one thing, but deliberately getting close by is another. If an incident or accident were to take place, caused by the proximity of another aircraft, it doesn't take much to realise who the CAA, the press and the general public would hold negligent, despite pleas of "We knew they were coming, but it's the open FIR".
They are one of the easier hazards to deal with."
Especially when NOTAM'd. Keeping out of the way is one thing, but deliberately getting close by is another. If an incident or accident were to take place, caused by the proximity of another aircraft, it doesn't take much to realise who the CAA, the press and the general public would hold negligent, despite pleas of "We knew they were coming, but it's the open FIR".
ATCO 17 - if you think the RA's transit 'up to' 2500ft you're very much mistaken. In my experience (over 20 years of handling them) it's usually less than 1500ft, normally in the 1000 to 1200ft bracket, NEVER as high as 2500!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Chevs, you're quite right, they normally transit below 2000' in the UKLFS, however, that obviously depends on the weather at the time, but they always publish SFC to 2500' whilst in transit at low level...
Shy, think you've pretty much summed up the point I was trying to get across!
A17
Shy, think you've pretty much summed up the point I was trying to get across!
A17
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Class G Airspace
People should be aware that the Red Arrows regard themselves as direct representatives of the Almighty and therefore anyone and everyone should cower before their stately progress between displays. This frame of mind is clearly encouraged by the attitude of ATCO`s like ATCO17.
If they choose to transit below 2500` in Class G airspace then other users have the right to expect that their lookout should be every bit as sharp as everyone else in the vicinity. Operating at 300 kts, whilst not as suicidal as other fast jets at 420 kts, is still above the civil speed limit of 250 kts below 10,000`.
As an aside, Red Leader once filed an infringement during a display at Farnborough against a RAF Puma which was ground taxying. They are not normal mortals!
If they choose to transit below 2500` in Class G airspace then other users have the right to expect that their lookout should be every bit as sharp as everyone else in the vicinity. Operating at 300 kts, whilst not as suicidal as other fast jets at 420 kts, is still above the civil speed limit of 250 kts below 10,000`.
As an aside, Red Leader once filed an infringement during a display at Farnborough against a RAF Puma which was ground taxying. They are not normal mortals!
Avoid imitations
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I would say "Don't knock it till you've tried it", as in the pressures of leading a 9 ship in close formation.
Trouble is, there are some with a touch of the little green monster about them, wanting to appease their own deep feelings of inadequacy by attempting to knock others off a perceived pedestal.
Trouble is, there are some with a touch of the little green monster about them, wanting to appease their own deep feelings of inadequacy by attempting to knock others off a perceived pedestal.
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The Red Arrows normally transit in a very loose (for them) formation when in transit so presume will be looking 'out' as 'well' as in.
These days they are getting more and more concerned with anyone flying in the same hemisphere as them. Okay as others have said not good for display infringements but if you want to fly at 'low-level' from A to B on a Saturday afternoon then best you look out. Perhaps they are doing en route fly pasts at car boot sales etc but do they really think we amateurs always talk to a radar equipped ATC unit whenever we are flying?
Years ago they demanded that airfields grounded all their aircraft one Sunday morning as they flew up the A1 from Alconbury to Lincoln in fromation with a BA 747 for a naming ceremony - all at 1500ft. It was pointed out that airfields (with A/G operators) couldn't ground aircraft and asked if they would like to pay the flying schools compensation for loss of earnings....
Another time they turned inside an active airfield ATZ within 0.5nm of a parachute DZ turning for a run over a scout jamboree all without talking to anyone, no NOTAM etc - they certainly begged forgiveness from the damned civvies on that occasion.
These days they are getting more and more concerned with anyone flying in the same hemisphere as them. Okay as others have said not good for display infringements but if you want to fly at 'low-level' from A to B on a Saturday afternoon then best you look out. Perhaps they are doing en route fly pasts at car boot sales etc but do they really think we amateurs always talk to a radar equipped ATC unit whenever we are flying?
Years ago they demanded that airfields grounded all their aircraft one Sunday morning as they flew up the A1 from Alconbury to Lincoln in fromation with a BA 747 for a naming ceremony - all at 1500ft. It was pointed out that airfields (with A/G operators) couldn't ground aircraft and asked if they would like to pay the flying schools compensation for loss of earnings....
Another time they turned inside an active airfield ATZ within 0.5nm of a parachute DZ turning for a run over a scout jamboree all without talking to anyone, no NOTAM etc - they certainly begged forgiveness from the damned civvies on that occasion.
ATCO17: I wasn't referring to the LFS; more the TVAA. They also flew through through the active ATZ of a local airfield once and passed UNDER a guy on his first solo without an RTF call.
