CHC MCA Transition
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Ladies and Gents,
i have said this before and I'll say it again. Calm down, its only a commercial
CHC will deliver a SAR service of that I am sure. They are putting in place new technology aircraft which is bound to have the odd issue. Which will get sorted eventually.
Lets face it, they are hardly likely to say " OK its too hard we give up!" They and the team they have recruited will unite and sort it.
As for Bristows, you are right, they are hardly likely to take their ball away when they are in competative dialogue with the SAR-H IPT. That just wouldn't be friendly!
Lets face it, a year from now we will wonder what all the fuss was about! I know this is arumour network but the odd moan from an individual is hardly cause to say the entire thing is collapsing!
No I dont work for CHC or Bristows.
Crabb - all military become civilians eventually.
i have said this before and I'll say it again. Calm down, its only a commercial
CHC will deliver a SAR service of that I am sure. They are putting in place new technology aircraft which is bound to have the odd issue. Which will get sorted eventually.
Lets face it, they are hardly likely to say " OK its too hard we give up!" They and the team they have recruited will unite and sort it.
As for Bristows, you are right, they are hardly likely to take their ball away when they are in competative dialogue with the SAR-H IPT. That just wouldn't be friendly!
Lets face it, a year from now we will wonder what all the fuss was about! I know this is arumour network but the odd moan from an individual is hardly cause to say the entire thing is collapsing!
No I dont work for CHC or Bristows.
Crabb - all military become civilians eventually.
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332
You are obviously not a SAR driver, anyone with such an arrogant perspective as "putting their lives in MY HANDS" would soon be recognised and rapidly disposed of.
It may be named pprune, however, when discussing SAR, pilots are not generally the definitive oracle on the subject.
SAR is entirely a team effort and there is no room for conceipted Drivers who believe themselves to be above other members of the team. People that have that attitude in this environment tend to induce poor CRM, which in turn usually causes accidents.
Good Luck to CHC
It may be named pprune, however, when discussing SAR, pilots are not generally the definitive oracle on the subject.
SAR is entirely a team effort and there is no room for conceipted Drivers who believe themselves to be above other members of the team. People that have that attitude in this environment tend to induce poor CRM, which in turn usually causes accidents.
Good Luck to CHC
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Nicely put Angel. (Have you been tango'ed recently)
Mistress
Obviously we seem to have hit a nerve here. My view is that you are not a SAR pilot and seem to have little idea of real crew co-operation. In SAR it goes way beyond two guys sitting up the front of the aircraft. If anyone on the crew is not happy with a situation he says so and it gets acted upon. My life on the wire is not in the hands of the pilot. It's in the hands of all the crew.
Mistress
Obviously we seem to have hit a nerve here. My view is that you are not a SAR pilot and seem to have little idea of real crew co-operation. In SAR it goes way beyond two guys sitting up the front of the aircraft. If anyone on the crew is not happy with a situation he says so and it gets acted upon. My life on the wire is not in the hands of the pilot. It's in the hands of all the crew.
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Angelonawire
Nice to see that you are still about and that time has not mellowed you.
"SAR driver[s] ... rapidly disposed of"
How well you encompass all that is best in multi-crew co-operation.
"SAR driver[s] ... rapidly disposed of"
How well you encompass all that is best in multi-crew co-operation.
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"SAR driver[s] ... rapidly disposed of"
How well you encompass all that is best in multi-crew co-operation.
How well you encompass all that is best in multi-crew co-operation.
he once said on this forum that
"do remember that a vast majority of the actual skill and danger aspect is taken on by the back seat, and any winchop worth his salt could keep a monkey hovering over a moving deck.... "
and who after an incident couldn't sit down and discuss it as a crew but instead carried out a vindictive public attack on the Captain on PPRUNE, threatened anyone who disagreed with him before deleting all his posts! Which when you consider the first remark probably wasn't the Captains fault because he was just the unskilled monkey being manipulated by the winch op!
So it’s a bit rich for him to be criticising CRM when he clearly lacks it himself!
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I seem to have stirred up a hornet's nest of rear crew angst by merely stating that this is a pilot's rumour network and it is only natural that pilots look at any thread from their perspective.
I didn't start the name-calling that came from Wiretensioner and Flungdung. The remark about your life in my hands is perfectly true as I think it was angelonawire who had a dramatic incident due to pilot inputs, but I do not think of myself as the god in the front as those with chips on their shoulders seem to think. SAR is a whole crew evolution and any weakness in the composition of the crew can be disastrous.
I couldn't position the winchman without the accurate patter from the winchop and he couldn't position the winchman without accurate and precise flying from me. The winchman relies on his safety by trusting the 2 of us. The casualty’s life depends on the bravery of the winchman. It is a true crew operation. Which is why I am surprised at the remarks made by some rearcrew who seem to have issues that would have CRM consequences if allowed to come to light during SAROPs.
For info I may not be an active SAR pilot now but I did do 10yrs Seaking SAR (B CAT) with many fine rearcrew who didn't have the anti-pilot views that seem to be held by some on here.
332M
I didn't start the name-calling that came from Wiretensioner and Flungdung. The remark about your life in my hands is perfectly true as I think it was angelonawire who had a dramatic incident due to pilot inputs, but I do not think of myself as the god in the front as those with chips on their shoulders seem to think. SAR is a whole crew evolution and any weakness in the composition of the crew can be disastrous.
I couldn't position the winchman without the accurate patter from the winchop and he couldn't position the winchman without accurate and precise flying from me. The winchman relies on his safety by trusting the 2 of us. The casualty’s life depends on the bravery of the winchman. It is a true crew operation. Which is why I am surprised at the remarks made by some rearcrew who seem to have issues that would have CRM consequences if allowed to come to light during SAROPs.
For info I may not be an active SAR pilot now but I did do 10yrs Seaking SAR (B CAT) with many fine rearcrew who didn't have the anti-pilot views that seem to be held by some on here.
332M
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Return to sender
I shall take the bait on this, nicely regurgitated, your memory is nearly as good as my wife's!,
The entire lack of CRM was the catalyst for the incident as you describe.
And the reason for me airing my dirty laundry on prune was also a product of poor CRM, autocratic captains and company managers burying their heads in the sand.
I think this matter was discussed quite enough in the past and would be rather dis-tastefull to start bringing it to the forefront again, Hopefully CHC with some fresh new blood, new and up to date procedures, CRM skills and a distinct lack of cobwebs and odour of urine, may be a breath of fresh Air
The entire lack of CRM was the catalyst for the incident as you describe.
And the reason for me airing my dirty laundry on prune was also a product of poor CRM, autocratic captains and company managers burying their heads in the sand.
I think this matter was discussed quite enough in the past and would be rather dis-tastefull to start bringing it to the forefront again, Hopefully CHC with some fresh new blood, new and up to date procedures, CRM skills and a distinct lack of cobwebs and odour of urine, may be a breath of fresh Air
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SAR Unit Manning & Aircraft Utilisation
Dear All,
Just to clear up a few points.
1. All present Bristow/MCA Helo Units (excepting 12 hour only Portland) have 24 staff, comprising:-
8 x pilots
8 x crewmen
7 x engineers
1 x secretary
1 x labourer/odd job man
Cleaning is by contractor.
2. There are four SAR/LN450 S61s (one each base) plus two 'standard' S61s as spares. One spare is at Lee, the other is in Sumburgh. Because of maintenance requirements the spare aircraft are regularly on line with little diminution of the proffered service. Crews regularly train - yes, even over decks on pitch black nights - on the spare aircraft to maintain proficiency.
Just to clear up a few points.
1. All present Bristow/MCA Helo Units (excepting 12 hour only Portland) have 24 staff, comprising:-
8 x pilots
8 x crewmen
7 x engineers
1 x secretary
1 x labourer/odd job man
Cleaning is by contractor.
2. There are four SAR/LN450 S61s (one each base) plus two 'standard' S61s as spares. One spare is at Lee, the other is in Sumburgh. Because of maintenance requirements the spare aircraft are regularly on line with little diminution of the proffered service. Crews regularly train - yes, even over decks on pitch black nights - on the spare aircraft to maintain proficiency.
Thread Starter
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angelonawire
Reading your last, I assume that you are joining CHC. With your attitude you could cost CHC personnel, and if I were in your environment then you would be the last person that I would want to work for, or indeed to admit to know.
Hiller
Reading your last, I assume that you are joining CHC. With your attitude you could cost CHC personnel, and if I were in your environment then you would be the last person that I would want to work for, or indeed to admit to know.
Hiller
SAROwl - do you mean to imply in your post that the Portland crews don't train because they don't have a spare? That's the way it reads.
Are your S61s a similar spec to the CHC SAR ones in Ireland? By that I mean that their SAR aircraft is SN501 fully autopilot equipped but that their spare is likely to be a non-autohover, non doppler aircraft (standard S61?).
If yours are of the same spec then you cannot say that there is 'little diminution of service' when transferring to the spare, especially for night over water work.
Are your S61s a similar spec to the CHC SAR ones in Ireland? By that I mean that their SAR aircraft is SN501 fully autopilot equipped but that their spare is likely to be a non-autohover, non doppler aircraft (standard S61?).
If yours are of the same spec then you cannot say that there is 'little diminution of service' when transferring to the spare, especially for night over water work.
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Here we go again?
Crab,
I have re-read Owl's post and see nothing that implies no training at Portland. (by implication, neither Portland or Stornaway can train regularly on a limsar A/C as they don't have one on site).
I agree with you that 'little diminution of service' might be overstating the case a bit, because otherwise there would be little point in fully equipped A/C.
However, if, as I suspect, this is an opening salvo in another round of MilSAR is better than CivSAR, oh no it's not, oh yes it is, could you save us all a lot of time and just cut-and-paste from one of the previous threads. Thanks.
I have re-read Owl's post and see nothing that implies no training at Portland. (by implication, neither Portland or Stornaway can train regularly on a limsar A/C as they don't have one on site).
I agree with you that 'little diminution of service' might be overstating the case a bit, because otherwise there would be little point in fully equipped A/C.
However, if, as I suspect, this is an opening salvo in another round of MilSAR is better than CivSAR, oh no it's not, oh yes it is, could you save us all a lot of time and just cut-and-paste from one of the previous threads. Thanks.
That's Life!!
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but that their spare is likely to be a non-autohover, non doppler aircraft (standard S61?).
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Angelonawire
"a distinct lack of cobwebs and odour of urine, may be a breath of fresh Air"
It is so nice to see your obvious zeal to berate your former employer and colleagues once more. You really are a little bit bitter and twisted about something.
Perhaps it is time to let us all know just where your vast amount of SAR knowledge and experience comes from. Can you enlighten us please?
Achilles426
It is so nice to see your obvious zeal to berate your former employer and colleagues once more. You really are a little bit bitter and twisted about something.
Perhaps it is time to let us all know just where your vast amount of SAR knowledge and experience comes from. Can you enlighten us please?
Achilles426
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Actually Stornoway, Sumburgh and Lee all have standby aircraft. The only base that doesn't is Portland.
Poor old CRAB is trying once again to start an argument and who can blame him. He doesn't have long to slag off civvy SAR before the new aircraft and contractor start with new equipment, proceedures and full SAR standby aircraft - all of which were effectively chosen by the RAF. So apart from a radar that points behind him all his other arguments are lost!
Never mind.... I'm sure he'll think of something else!
Poor old CRAB is trying once again to start an argument and who can blame him. He doesn't have long to slag off civvy SAR before the new aircraft and contractor start with new equipment, proceedures and full SAR standby aircraft - all of which were effectively chosen by the RAF. So apart from a radar that points behind him all his other arguments are lost!
Never mind.... I'm sure he'll think of something else!
Tractor driver - sarowl wrote-
2. There are four SAR/LN450 S61s (one each base) plus two 'standard' S61s as spares. One spare is at Lee, the other is in Sumburgh. Because of maintenance requirements the spare aircraft are regularly on line with little diminution of the proffered service. Crews regularly train - yes, even over decks on pitch black nights - on the spare aircraft to maintain proficiency.
The last sentence says the crews train on the spare aircraft and the second says that the spares are at Lee and Sumburgh. The smiley after my question means I know what he is saying but that it can be read another way from that which he intended.
Sailor Vee - does a 'standard S61' have a doppler hovermeter, an autohover, both or none? I know what the CHC ones have but not the Bristows ones, that is why I asked the question - duh!
There is no need for another pi88ing contest - I know that as with any skill, those that practise most will be best at it and SAR is no different whether front or rearcrew. Whether this truism will be reflected in the new SAR contract is up to the beancounters.
2. There are four SAR/LN450 S61s (one each base) plus two 'standard' S61s as spares. One spare is at Lee, the other is in Sumburgh. Because of maintenance requirements the spare aircraft are regularly on line with little diminution of the proffered service. Crews regularly train - yes, even over decks on pitch black nights - on the spare aircraft to maintain proficiency.
The last sentence says the crews train on the spare aircraft and the second says that the spares are at Lee and Sumburgh. The smiley after my question means I know what he is saying but that it can be read another way from that which he intended.
Sailor Vee - does a 'standard S61' have a doppler hovermeter, an autohover, both or none? I know what the CHC ones have but not the Bristows ones, that is why I asked the question - duh!
There is no need for another pi88ing contest - I know that as with any skill, those that practise most will be best at it and SAR is no different whether front or rearcrew. Whether this truism will be reflected in the new SAR contract is up to the beancounters.
Crab.
For crying out loud change the tune and read what the posts actually say.
There is a standby machine at Stornoway, Sumburgh and Lee. (Shared with Portland.) All this you well know from previous posts. The standby machines are not LN450 fitted. Training is carried out on the main machine, LN450 fitted, or if that is off line off line for maintenance, then training is carried out on the standby, none LN450, machine.
The only thing that will change when/if CHC take over is that all aircraft, S92 and AW139, (where are they?)will be to the same standard. At least that is what the MCA have been told.
For crying out loud change the tune and read what the posts actually say.
There is a standby machine at Stornoway, Sumburgh and Lee. (Shared with Portland.) All this you well know from previous posts. The standby machines are not LN450 fitted. Training is carried out on the main machine, LN450 fitted, or if that is off line off line for maintenance, then training is carried out on the standby, none LN450, machine.
The only thing that will change when/if CHC take over is that all aircraft, S92 and AW139, (where are they?)will be to the same standard. At least that is what the MCA have been told.
3DCam -stop being precious and read what my post actually says - the smiley was there to indicate that I knew exactly what sarowl meant but that it could be read another way.
Equally, I know that the first standby aircraft at the MCA flights is autohover - my question was whether the spare had a doppler meter which would allow some semblance of night overwater hover or if it was the same as the CHC one which is like a big Wessex in terms of night capability. The reason for mentioning it was sarowls statement that the spare aircraft represented only a small diminution of capability which is not true for night over water work.
Equally, I know that the first standby aircraft at the MCA flights is autohover - my question was whether the spare had a doppler meter which would allow some semblance of night overwater hover or if it was the same as the CHC one which is like a big Wessex in terms of night capability. The reason for mentioning it was sarowls statement that the spare aircraft represented only a small diminution of capability which is not true for night over water work.
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Crab
The UK Coastguard standby SAR cabs do not have doppler/autohover capability and only a single winch.
They have the older intercom and simplex AFCS.
There is no major restriction on capability. Night jobs and/or very bad weather ops are not really a problem provided there is some sort of reference when operating below 45kts.
I do think that both the main and standby cabs are looking a little tired these days
Cheers
Press
The UK Coastguard standby SAR cabs do not have doppler/autohover capability and only a single winch.
They have the older intercom and simplex AFCS.
There is no major restriction on capability. Night jobs and/or very bad weather ops are not really a problem provided there is some sort of reference when operating below 45kts.
I do think that both the main and standby cabs are looking a little tired these days
Cheers
Press