The Met's EC145s are about to go Operational!
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: west london
Posts: 104
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have the privelage (or sometimes the problem) of providing an Air Traffic service to the Police helis in and around the Heathrow CTZ. I have always found them to be flexible, (when possible, due to the nature of the task) professional and extremely grateful. Many are ex military pilots. They are under pressure from the units on the ground, the Air Traffic Control unit they are working, and, most of all, the guys down the back. As AlanM knows, they are always more then willing, when able, to offer those interested and affected by their operations, a trip around their ops room and a chat with the crews. Give them a call...you never know where it could lead!
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: London
Age: 64
Posts: 100
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
(Standing with feet shoulder width apart bracing for a slagging off from certain quarters.)
I am a current serving Metropolitan police officer.
The ASU are worth their weight in gold as far as I'm concerned. They have allowed me to more efficiently serve the residents of and visitors to the nation's capital. They have protected my life on more than one occasion.
When I utilise the unit I want to know that the person assisting me has been where I am, has done the job I am doing and has a bloody good idea of what I'm thinking and what I am trying to achieve.
That person has, in my opinion, got to be a serving or recently retired police officer.
I am also a PPL(H).
The pilot has to be, to some extent, detatched from what is happening on the ground. His priority has got to be the safe operation of the aircraft, not only for the people within but also the people below and fellow airspace users. I don't know if a serving or recently retired police officer could confidently maintain that level of detatchment and not get focussed in on the events unfolding beneath.
IMHO the ballance is right.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
LM
I am a current serving Metropolitan police officer.
The ASU are worth their weight in gold as far as I'm concerned. They have allowed me to more efficiently serve the residents of and visitors to the nation's capital. They have protected my life on more than one occasion.
When I utilise the unit I want to know that the person assisting me has been where I am, has done the job I am doing and has a bloody good idea of what I'm thinking and what I am trying to achieve.
That person has, in my opinion, got to be a serving or recently retired police officer.
I am also a PPL(H).
The pilot has to be, to some extent, detatched from what is happening on the ground. His priority has got to be the safe operation of the aircraft, not only for the people within but also the people below and fellow airspace users. I don't know if a serving or recently retired police officer could confidently maintain that level of detatchment and not get focussed in on the events unfolding beneath.
IMHO the ballance is right.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
LM
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: west london
Posts: 104
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well said, your Lordship! However, who would've thought, 20 years ago that the majority of ground trades in the RAF would now be filled by civillians, albeit, many of them ex RAF. I fear we are on a slippery slope leading towards a lack of experience and common sense in this day of PC, HR and EO. It is up to us, those who have been there, seen it and done it, to pass on our experiences and wisdom to those who wish to fill our shoes.....and they ain't always that big! Maybe there is a place for Community Support Officers, or whatever they are called, but when I wander into town and see them strolling along, hands in pockets, shirts hanging out and generally looking like a sack of sh!t, it seriously annoys me. Like us in the forces, the taxpayer (and that's them and us included), pays the wages. I would expect to see a bit more for my money!
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: sunny side up
Posts: 82
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am not sure that a history of plodding around the beat makes a candidate for Air Observer any better than someone that has a history of e.g. taxi driving.
The ability to think outside the box, be flexible, have a will-co attitude, have mental dexterity, etc, etc is more important. I would rather see a highly trained Police Officer doing his job on the street for a full shift rather than sitting around for more than half it waiting for the phone to ring in the office.
Just a point of view.
The ability to think outside the box, be flexible, have a will-co attitude, have mental dexterity, etc, etc is more important. I would rather see a highly trained Police Officer doing his job on the street for a full shift rather than sitting around for more than half it waiting for the phone to ring in the office.
Just a point of view.
Having a history of 'plodding around the beat' is just part of the plot. It is no more than an indication that the candidate might be suitable for Air Observer. The ability to 'think outside the box, be flexible, have a will-co attitude, have mental dexterity, etc, etc' is all part of a wider testing process that varies a little from unit to unit but ultimately cost each of them a lot of money.
In the end the judgement has [thankfully] to be made by those already on the unit. If ever it was decided that selection was to be made outside the unit [and all things are possible] that would be a disaster even beyond the magnitute of requiring a unit [or a police force] to have a certain 'mix' of bodies regardless of ultimate capability.
ATCO's comment about his take on the average PCSO may well be based on quite a few sightings but it is probably [hopefully!] not too typical. The point though is that they are a money saving measure dreamed up by those above the 'street' ranks to suit the whims of politicians. Getting two for the price of one does not work when they are always seen in groups of two or three and not doing what 'real' coppers do. Look/observe on a 24/7 basis.
Talking to their companion is one thing but looking deeply into their eyes is not quite the same as scanning their surroundings... the rooftops... the passing cars... the ever darting enquiring eyes that always seem to betray coppers in disguise to the criminal classes!
Such behavior is trained in over years and does not simply dissolve with the pension. That is a reason why off-street plodders need two years in before they will even be considered.
Disregarding pre-trained military etc candidates, bringing an ordinary civvie into air observing would necessarily involve additional training or at best a slow aclimatisation into an observer culture.... just the Achilles Heel now being witnessed with the cheap PCSO's on our streets.
In the end the judgement has [thankfully] to be made by those already on the unit. If ever it was decided that selection was to be made outside the unit [and all things are possible] that would be a disaster even beyond the magnitute of requiring a unit [or a police force] to have a certain 'mix' of bodies regardless of ultimate capability.
ATCO's comment about his take on the average PCSO may well be based on quite a few sightings but it is probably [hopefully!] not too typical. The point though is that they are a money saving measure dreamed up by those above the 'street' ranks to suit the whims of politicians. Getting two for the price of one does not work when they are always seen in groups of two or three and not doing what 'real' coppers do. Look/observe on a 24/7 basis.
Talking to their companion is one thing but looking deeply into their eyes is not quite the same as scanning their surroundings... the rooftops... the passing cars... the ever darting enquiring eyes that always seem to betray coppers in disguise to the criminal classes!
Such behavior is trained in over years and does not simply dissolve with the pension. That is a reason why off-street plodders need two years in before they will even be considered.
Disregarding pre-trained military etc candidates, bringing an ordinary civvie into air observing would necessarily involve additional training or at best a slow aclimatisation into an observer culture.... just the Achilles Heel now being witnessed with the cheap PCSO's on our streets.
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: North of South
Posts: 831
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yeh , have to agree with just about everything Pan says there and my colleague in arms his lordship the mount . Max Chat does have a very good point regarding units sitting around waiting for a call . This does indeed happen and on occasion you can sit around for ten hours and not fly . But you cannot have it any other way really its a fine balance that is probably addressed as well as it can be. ASU's are normally small units , although Im sure the mets is significantly larger than my own which has only four observers. Yes they are four officers who could be out on the streets but again thats the line thats drawn .To have an effective asu you have to have it almost as a QRA there is not other way you can do it , unless it is purely re-active, ie GMP's Islander , note they do have a pro-active helo also . The point regarding plodding on the beat making one an ideal candidate , I would suggest is quite a good qualification . You are out on foot 8-10 hrs dealing with jobs ,withtout the aid of a fully equipped vehicle , it is up to you to deal with whatever you come across , you have to be resilient to put up with what at times is pure tedium resourseful and you cannot do it without a will-co attitude , at times its soul destroying, but at least you are out there . Not wishing to start a CSO slagging , I have never come across a more usless bunch of people in my life (I wont justify it I dont have the room and this is not a cso thread), senior police officers aside.
Come the revolution
Come the revolution
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: England
Posts: 32
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I shouldn't imagine that taking sworn officers out of the ASU will put them back on the streets - or anywhere else for that matter. This would be a cost-cutting measure remember.
And, ahem, it's..........wilco. Sorry for that.
And, ahem, it's..........wilco. Sorry for that.
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CSO's as Observers
The title of Community Support officer is as the title suggests there to support the community. When they are up in the air away from the public/community are they doing what they were employed for ? or being used in other Police roles to bring cheap Policing in the back door.
CSO's do a good job in dealing with anti social behavior and local community problems,let them carry on doing what they we employed for and not used as political pawns.
As for Civilian observers they probably can do some task as good as a Police officer, but as an officer time served on the ground and pursuit tac adviser, I believe I am in the better position to direct and advise a safe conclusion of a vehicle follow.
CSO's do a good job in dealing with anti social behavior and local community problems,let them carry on doing what they we employed for and not used as political pawns.
As for Civilian observers they probably can do some task as good as a Police officer, but as an officer time served on the ground and pursuit tac adviser, I believe I am in the better position to direct and advise a safe conclusion of a vehicle follow.
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: sunny side up
Posts: 82
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Like make the brews , yeh they could do that as well as a copper Im sure , although with our present batch , a short course may be needed
mixed emotions about this one.
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: North of South
Posts: 831
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
We normally let the seat to stick interface make the brews .On a serious note
I dont have one to hand but the paom lays down the criteria for CAA agreed pax who can fly with police air support units.Im sure it states that Police staff , which is what PCSO's are , can only fly if it is a flight in line with their police role , or words to that effect .I cannot think of a single reason a professional pedestrian would need to fly in an asu aircraft . This would also apply to non police officers recruited to be air observers . Now I suppose we could recruit persons to be observers who are not officers and give them one assigned role as an observer but this may be stretching the interpretation a bit too far . Now im sure they ill never put these cso in the aircraft ours is used precious little enough but if bobbies knew it was crewed by csos it would become redundant overnight and lose what little respect it has . But as senior officers certainly within my force are ridiculous to say the least nothing would surprise me
I dont have one to hand but the paom lays down the criteria for CAA agreed pax who can fly with police air support units.Im sure it states that Police staff , which is what PCSO's are , can only fly if it is a flight in line with their police role , or words to that effect .I cannot think of a single reason a professional pedestrian would need to fly in an asu aircraft . This would also apply to non police officers recruited to be air observers . Now I suppose we could recruit persons to be observers who are not officers and give them one assigned role as an observer but this may be stretching the interpretation a bit too far . Now im sure they ill never put these cso in the aircraft ours is used precious little enough but if bobbies knew it was crewed by csos it would become redundant overnight and lose what little respect it has . But as senior officers certainly within my force are ridiculous to say the least nothing would surprise me
Last edited by maxdrypower; 17th Jun 2007 at 21:59.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Out there some where?
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bell222
I've been informed today by a very reliable source that all three of the Met's new EC145s are now based at Lippits and are fully operational.
As for the existing 3 x AS355N they're now out of service and awaiting their fate?
Captain Cop!
As for the existing 3 x AS355N they're now out of service and awaiting their fate?
Captain Cop!
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: South of the North Pole
Posts: 472
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CapnCop... One 355N is more "out of service" than the others and will require more-than-normal number of parts to encourage it skyward once more.
Of interest from the CAA's G-INFO website and working on approx 1000 hrs pa average per airframe
G-SEPA TT11280 at 31/12/2004 (so approx 13700 now?)
G-SEPB TT11380 at 31/12/2006 (11800 now?)
G-SEPC TT 9124 at 31/12/2004 (11500 now?)
So, very approx figures, these three have about 37,000 hours between them. I can just see the advert now "Genuine one owner from new......"
Of interest from the CAA's G-INFO website and working on approx 1000 hrs pa average per airframe
G-SEPA TT11280 at 31/12/2004 (so approx 13700 now?)
G-SEPB TT11380 at 31/12/2006 (11800 now?)
G-SEPC TT 9124 at 31/12/2004 (11500 now?)
So, very approx figures, these three have about 37,000 hours between them. I can just see the advert now "Genuine one owner from new......"