What does ATC do that irks you?
Crazy Scandihooligan
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Helimutt
I think it was nearer 4.5...but i digress
Holding is Holding. 25 mins or 5 mins. Since we are much more fexible than our FW brethren, seems silly to just keep us hanging around when we can be expedited and voila, one less thing for the ATC to think about. 
My post earlier must have rattled a few chains, coz i got an email from a controller inviting me to a tower near my location. Geez, was it something i said
I think it was nearer 4.5...but i digress
Holding is Holding. 25 mins or 5 mins. Since we are much more fexible than our FW brethren, seems silly to just keep us hanging around when we can be expedited and voila, one less thing for the ATC to think about. My post earlier must have rattled a few chains, coz i got an email from a controller inviting me to a tower near my location. Geez, was it something i said
You entered the hold in a helicopter? I'm also assuming you don't have an IR and it may have been during training for said IR? I reckon that's one of the only times you will sit in a hold in a heli. I'd love to know which airfield and what type you were flying.
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semi-related question
This isn't an irk, I'm just not sure what the correct procedure is; as far as I'm concerned, having to deal with me while I'm distracted by making lots of fast-moving bits of metal stay up, yet still giving me the info I want, even when I've forgotten to ask for it, probably qualifies you for some sort of medal!
When switching to a (radar) frequency, and having listened for a few moments to make sure I'm not stepping on someone else, I go "XXX radar, helicopter G-ABCD", and ATC comes back with "G-ABCD, standby". How long should I wait before assuming that I've been forgotten, and repeating my initial call? Obviously, if I'm inbound, and need clearances, this becomes a bit more critical, but if I'm just flapping around outside the boundary and would like a FIS, I could conceivably wait for some time (although obviously, I'd like the FIS as soon as possible).
When switching to a (radar) frequency, and having listened for a few moments to make sure I'm not stepping on someone else, I go "XXX radar, helicopter G-ABCD", and ATC comes back with "G-ABCD, standby". How long should I wait before assuming that I've been forgotten, and repeating my initial call? Obviously, if I'm inbound, and need clearances, this becomes a bit more critical, but if I'm just flapping around outside the boundary and would like a FIS, I could conceivably wait for some time (although obviously, I'd like the FIS as soon as possible).
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I'm with Pandalet; my biggest issue is when I call about 10 miles out for an inbound clearance and after only passing my call sign being told 'standby', and then left for 10 minutes with very little other traffic on the radio until I call again, and a very annoyed controller tells me to 'standby, I'll get back to you'. In this instance another 10 minutes passed before he did respond to me. Lots of fuel burned unnecessarily as I stooged around outside the zone. At least he could have offerred reason for the delay or let me know how long he would be. Of course, this inordinate wait was a one off, but being told to 'standby' for several inbound track miles is a pretty regular occurrance nevertheless.
having to wait another 3 for wake turbulence to settle
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Ah...ATC
I started flying out of Van Nuys, CA #1 busiest GA in the states Frequently, I would fly an approach to the taxi way, and have a fixed wing off my right for the runway, no big deal, maintain visual, easy peasy! NOW, I'm flying out of Torrance, CA(Robinson factory is located there), and I'm now cleared to land behind fixed wings, for the numbers, WHY?? I'm following a Citbria, that is may doing 50 KTS, and then ATC wants me to shoot my approach, and terminate, at the numbers? AGAIN...WHY? I as so used to Van Nuys, and now this C$AP! So I'm burning .1 to .2 extra, because I'm having to follow a fixed wing on final! HEY, I rent, so every point counts, especially in the pockets! The other day, I was asked to shoot my approach to the active, which I did(ATC did not acknowledge my base to final call either). Then ATC instructed me to air taxi down the runway, to parking, no big deal. As I'm coming off the active to the grass, he tells me to hold for the Citation taxing south. The Citation is about 300 feet away, and I asked for an expedite to the pad, in front of the Citation, which ATC said HOLD. Now, which is less dangerous, me having to wait for his jet blast to settle, or a little downwash(R-22) from me? I think that some ATC know about helicopter ops, and some just do not! BUT, the other day, I asked about a TFR for the Rosebowl to a neighboring airport. I was transitioning through, and asked about the TFR. I rarely make any conversation with ATC, always, straight and to the point, and keep it brief. This guy was so hopeful, and quite pleasing to talk too, infact, he chewed out a fixed wing, for interrupting us! So, I really think it's the individual ATC'er. I just wish they were more consistent, and not constanly changing there minds!
My .2 cents!
My .2 cents!
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Two stories:
Bad:
One of my students on his first solo x-country could'nt touch down at a class D airport (they also like "play" big aiport over there) because they were painting the runway centerline on ONE of two runways and reached the intersection - surely nobody figured that that is a helicopter and could have touched down roundabout 5000 ft away from the workers! (student was to afraid to insist and did'nt land)
good
Philly International, pick up a photographer. Tower asked me for my intentions and told me to keep my squawk... took a little longer than I thought, so I figured that I should call clearance first - bad weather somewhere, everybody got full clearances and after 2 min not even keying the mike I decided to give it a shot on the tower freq..
Of course the guy has changed and I told the new guy that his collegue told me to keep my squawk:
Tower: "That was'nt me, standby!"
Me: (
awaiting the "contact clearance") Roger
Tower: (worked five airliners and then) "Helicopter on the GA ramp, are u N-12ABC?"
Me: "Affirmative"
Tower: "Ok, I found a note here, you can proceed as requested!"
Me: "Roger Helicopter N-12ABC"
Tower: (cleared six or seven airliners) "Helicopter N-12ABC I'm not picking u up - you didn't take off yet?"
Me: "negative sir, I am waiting for takeoff clearance"
Tower: "I gave it to you already - proceed as requested!"
Bad:
One of my students on his first solo x-country could'nt touch down at a class D airport (they also like "play" big aiport over there) because they were painting the runway centerline on ONE of two runways and reached the intersection - surely nobody figured that that is a helicopter and could have touched down roundabout 5000 ft away from the workers! (student was to afraid to insist and did'nt land)
good
Philly International, pick up a photographer. Tower asked me for my intentions and told me to keep my squawk... took a little longer than I thought, so I figured that I should call clearance first - bad weather somewhere, everybody got full clearances and after 2 min not even keying the mike I decided to give it a shot on the tower freq..
Of course the guy has changed and I told the new guy that his collegue told me to keep my squawk:
Tower: "That was'nt me, standby!"
Me: (
awaiting the "contact clearance") RogerTower: (worked five airliners and then) "Helicopter on the GA ramp, are u N-12ABC?"
Me: "Affirmative"
Tower: "Ok, I found a note here, you can proceed as requested!"
Me: "Roger Helicopter N-12ABC"
Tower: (cleared six or seven airliners) "Helicopter N-12ABC I'm not picking u up - you didn't take off yet?"
Me: "negative sir, I am waiting for takeoff clearance"
Tower: "I gave it to you already - proceed as requested!"
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Pet hate from my R22 days:
Long complicated clearances that have to be memorised.
Remedy:
Take them flying and show them that unlike our FW cousins, R22 pilots cannot write and hover. Clearances became much simpler thereafter.
Long complicated clearances that have to be memorised.
Remedy:
Take them flying and show them that unlike our FW cousins, R22 pilots cannot write and hover. Clearances became much simpler thereafter.
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Well must admit, also had a couple of delays due to FW traffic etc. Must admit I found most ATC accomadating in my area of operation and even down right friendly.
The one thing I do really hate to hear is a clearance with the the following words attached to it: "Expedite" Imagine the pressure being put on a youngster trying to do everything safetly and as quick as possible. Helicopters in general is twice as quick when it comes to being ready and getting out of ATC's way after lift-off.
The one thing I do really hate to hear is a clearance with the the following words attached to it: "Expedite" Imagine the pressure being put on a youngster trying to do everything safetly and as quick as possible. Helicopters in general is twice as quick when it comes to being ready and getting out of ATC's way after lift-off.
ConwayB
Nice idea.. It will be interesting to see your collated results.
I had a skim through the thread on the ATC forum and noticed most of the 'irks' relate to fixed wing pilots. Except;
What about a 'What irks you about heli pilots' thread for us?
I had a skim through the thread on the ATC forum and noticed most of the 'irks' relate to fixed wing pilots. Except;
The 1500' heli pilot who likes to take his time on the R/T, telling me where he is, where he's going to (and sometimes why), what he's doing then, and then, before heading back to there.. all these little bits of info broken up with "ummm"s and "ehh"s.
The Veloceraptor of Lounge Lizards
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Helimutt;
Had a couple of holds over the years on the North Sea. Nearly died of shock in the early hours of one morning when diverting to Luton (now vip charter not NS) in grot weather when I got an approach time of 05:35z. Time then was 04:40. My boss in the a/c ahead got an EAT of 05:25.
A long and boring hold session at BNN followed. When intercepting the localiser the ATCO said "How fast can you fly this approach? because we're going out b***dy quick." As I shut down on the Signature ramp the boss walked up to the aircraft and pointed to the tower. The bottom 50' was all that was visible
I hadn't flown 6 holds on the trot since the days of f
ing up in the simulator when the trainers let me get on with it because the paper trace was so pretty.
Had a couple of holds over the years on the North Sea. Nearly died of shock in the early hours of one morning when diverting to Luton (now vip charter not NS) in grot weather when I got an approach time of 05:35z. Time then was 04:40. My boss in the a/c ahead got an EAT of 05:25.
A long and boring hold session at BNN followed. When intercepting the localiser the ATCO said "How fast can you fly this approach? because we're going out b***dy quick." As I shut down on the Signature ramp the boss walked up to the aircraft and pointed to the tower. The bottom 50' was all that was visible
I hadn't flown 6 holds on the trot since the days of f
ing up in the simulator when the trainers let me get on with it because the paper trace was so pretty.
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The A & B team.
We had this problem here in Iceland but now most if not all the controllers know how flexible helicopters are. Now a days we almost always get the clearances we ask for.
Bad:
What I really hate the most is the grumpy controller! The one that shouts at the first solo students and gives you hard time "just because he can"!
Also the controller having you hold in the hover for minutes just to wait for some 3 or 4 small airplanes on the other side of the airport taking off and landing!
I think it is a good idea to write an article about this and how much workload is on helicopter pilots hovering around the aerodrome, limiting their ability to adapt to changing frequencies and turning equipment off.
Good:
The female controllers who have that lovely voice.
We had this problem here in Iceland but now most if not all the controllers know how flexible helicopters are. Now a days we almost always get the clearances we ask for.
Bad:
What I really hate the most is the grumpy controller! The one that shouts at the first solo students and gives you hard time "just because he can"!
Also the controller having you hold in the hover for minutes just to wait for some 3 or 4 small airplanes on the other side of the airport taking off and landing!
I think it is a good idea to write an article about this and how much workload is on helicopter pilots hovering around the aerodrome, limiting their ability to adapt to changing frequencies and turning equipment off.
Good:
The female controllers who have that lovely voice.
The Veloceraptor of Lounge Lizards
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Heli-Ice;
Agree with your B. There is a lady at a major airport north of London who has an impossibly sexy, but smiley voice. I know she actually works in the Drayton pit. Every time I hear her it makes my day, and my knees weak.
Maybe AlanM could provide more details. Still got to take him flying so maybe bribery on that occasion will help
Agree with your B. There is a lady at a major airport north of London who has an impossibly sexy, but smiley voice. I know she actually works in the Drayton pit. Every time I hear her it makes my day, and my knees weak.
Maybe AlanM could provide more details. Still got to take him flying so maybe bribery on that occasion will help
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I couldn’t say enough good things about most of the troops on the other end of the radio, especially back in the old FSU days. One only had to cough and they were onto you. Some like ‘Malfunction’ out of Kununurra were phenominal and usually could be heard way past other stations.
This happened to a mate of mine. He then worked for a smallish company in North Qld. One day one of the troops pulls the pin so bossman asks mate to fetch the A/C (a 269) back to base. It was parked beside his at Cairns, a controlled A/P and right beside the TWR. Mate also happened to volunteer a lift to a femme fatale for convenience. Well so he said anyrate.
Twr staff watches, with some interest.
Like most, they had the binos trained downwards. Finally mate is ready, fires up and asks for a clearance.
Back came the answer short and to the point, “No.”
‘Why not’
“Not until you tell what is going on, that is not your usual machine and it definitely is not your girfriend.”
This happened to a mate of mine. He then worked for a smallish company in North Qld. One day one of the troops pulls the pin so bossman asks mate to fetch the A/C (a 269) back to base. It was parked beside his at Cairns, a controlled A/P and right beside the TWR. Mate also happened to volunteer a lift to a femme fatale for convenience. Well so he said anyrate.
Twr staff watches, with some interest.
Like most, they had the binos trained downwards. Finally mate is ready, fires up and asks for a clearance.
Back came the answer short and to the point, “No.”
‘Why not’
“Not until you tell what is going on, that is not your usual machine and it definitely is not your girfriend.”
Crazy Scandihooligan
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helimutt / Mighty Gem,
"This paragraph has been edited as per Helimutt's assumption"
Needless to say, i have rarely experienced holding in the UK, except in a training modus, and the UK controllers i have experienced seem Heli friendly and have had no real gripes there. I guess when you are used to dealing with more traffic you become proficient and can expidite things quickly. I have great admiration for the boys and gals down at EGKA who seem to be able to do their jobs well under even of the busiest times
But my initial comment was a gripe at the Norwegian Controllers. Saying that, always had good control from ENBR, ENZV & ENGM. Its just places like ENTO, ENRY, ENSN that need to wind their necks in abit.
MD
"This paragraph has been edited as per Helimutt's assumption"
Needless to say, i have rarely experienced holding in the UK, except in a training modus, and the UK controllers i have experienced seem Heli friendly and have had no real gripes there. I guess when you are used to dealing with more traffic you become proficient and can expidite things quickly. I have great admiration for the boys and gals down at EGKA who seem to be able to do their jobs well under even of the busiest times
But my initial comment was a gripe at the Norwegian Controllers. Saying that, always had good control from ENBR, ENZV & ENGM. Its just places like ENTO, ENRY, ENSN that need to wind their necks in abit.
MD
Last edited by MD900 Explorer; 9th Feb 2007 at 15:44.
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I know this is an extension to the taxying / clearances issue, but this has happened to me several times.
SPIFR, fly the approach to DH and just at 250' I get taxy instructions
That's when I standby!
Never heard it done to a fixed wing though
SPIFR, fly the approach to DH and just at 250' I get taxy instructions
That's when I standby!
Never heard it done to a fixed wing though
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Cheer up on the frequency.
On my flight recently I had first a controller who was under training which I could tell by the voice which is fine and I try not to make his life difficult but then I changed frequency and was greeted by Mr clip and grumpy where you get the feeling you personally are to blame his life has gone to pot.So I was glad to change frequency again to be greeted by a chap who made me immediately feel that was in safe hands and he would fulfill every wish I might have.
I don't expect you all being so sweet, I don't really know what is troubling you at the time when I am passing, but how about cheering up a tad.
I am myself am guilty of getting ecited on the radio every now and then therefore I am trying to reduce those instances.
On my flight recently I had first a controller who was under training which I could tell by the voice which is fine and I try not to make his life difficult but then I changed frequency and was greeted by Mr clip and grumpy where you get the feeling you personally are to blame his life has gone to pot.So I was glad to change frequency again to be greeted by a chap who made me immediately feel that was in safe hands and he would fulfill every wish I might have.
I don't expect you all being so sweet, I don't really know what is troubling you at the time when I am passing, but how about cheering up a tad.
I am myself am guilty of getting ecited on the radio every now and then therefore I am trying to reduce those instances.
MD900, so let me just get this straight. You fly a single, not IFR certificated machine, and do holds as a matter of course, VFR, whenever ATC require it, no matter what the wx may be? Good luck to you man.
Last edited by helimutt; 10th Feb 2007 at 09:48.
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If have a nice one from Kabul, Afghanistan.
We (2 CH 53) flew back to Kabul Intl. from a training mission. Our position was a few miles north of the field. After our initial contact we listened to a conversation between the Air Force Controller and a Boeing 727 from Ariana Afghan Airlines.
TWR: Ariana XXX what is your position? We have 2 helicopters north of the field.
Ariana XXX(in broken English): Position is good to land.
A few minutes later the B 727 landed on the runway without clearance!
With all the good or bad experiences we had, we have to keep one thing in mind (my opinion).The controllers are there to serve us (the pilots) and not vice versa. (Especially when we have to pay for for their service)
We (2 CH 53) flew back to Kabul Intl. from a training mission. Our position was a few miles north of the field. After our initial contact we listened to a conversation between the Air Force Controller and a Boeing 727 from Ariana Afghan Airlines.
TWR: Ariana XXX what is your position? We have 2 helicopters north of the field.
Ariana XXX(in broken English): Position is good to land.
A few minutes later the B 727 landed on the runway without clearance!
With all the good or bad experiences we had, we have to keep one thing in mind (my opinion).The controllers are there to serve us (the pilots) and not vice versa. (Especially when we have to pay for for their service)